OT: Is Linux too hard?

[Miuku.]

Sorry pal, the company I work for uses Visual Studio .NET and MS SQL Server because thats what our clients use therefore I can't possibly achieve the same results by moving to other products. I could produce similar products for somebody elses clients perhaps but not mine thus I have to stand by my original statement that? I can not do what I NEED to do with ANY version of linux - period.? Doing somethin[similari>[/b]b> isn't going to get me a paycheck right now.

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You're missing the point here; My original argument was that a function that can be performed by a Windows OS can be done on Linux, thus there is nothing I cannot do on Linux that you can do on Windows.

You're referring to a bunch of software that was _ALL_ developed by the company responsible for the operating system itself, thus you're bound to be forced to use their products all the way.

I can do exactly the same thing you're doing with MSSQL/IIS /w .NET and do it openly, multiplatformed and best of all; with much less expenses which immediately translate to more income for my company.

And your clients, well their loss or their inaptitude that they've chosen to go the proprietary Microsoft route, judging by the last 25 odd years they should've known once they sell their soul they'll be forced to use a single restricting platform till the end of time.

When I came to this company, every workstation and every machine here was Windows. Now, apart from 2 Exchange servers, a few Win2k servers and workstations - every machine runs Linux and the entire development platform, web services, ftp servers, intra/extranet - everything has been moved over to BSD/Linux combination.

What did we lose? Nothing. What did we gain? A lot.

Edited July 29, 2005 by daPhoenix

[markwolfe Veteran]

This thread is one of the most professional debates I've ever seen on a forum like Neowin :laugh:

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Thank you. We have many good members (and a few bad ones!:p). I try to keep the threads from derailing, and will split off posts where it seems to be going off-topic and so forth. But mostly conversations here seem to pretty much focus on facts and are geared toward learning and understanding.

1.) Linux _does_ detect any WLAN adapter - but it lacks native drivers for some. That doesn't mean they won't work, most of them do, in fact (using LinuxAnt or ndiswrapper). But whose mistake was it to buy an unsupported piece of hardware instead of, for example, a Prism or RT2500 based card from the start?

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Wile I agree that it is the manufacturer's problem for not writing a driver, it is certainly an obstacle in Linux adoption for the casual user.

[raskren]

This thread is one of the most professional debates I've ever seen on a forum like Neowin.

Agreed. Thanks markjensen.

Unfortunately, the maturity level of most of the forums takes a nose-dive over the summer. Gee, wonder why? :rolleyes:

[markwolfe Veteran]

Notepad2 can almost surely run with wine, if you require that specific app.

Yes, it probably can, but I see it as not worth the hassle.

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Just for giggles, I downloaded notepad2. It runs with a double-click. Nothing tricky - no hassle at all. The app does seem pretty basic. You can use it, or you can use any of the other native Linux apps.

[E t h a n]

I've got a question for people who know about Linux. I need to write in a couple of foreign languages other than English, and so I use a Windows program called Perfect Keyboard Pro to allow me to do quick key combinations to get certain characters.

For instance, when I do:

alt-a then I get ?

alt-shift-a gives ?

ctl-alt-a gives ?

ctl-alt-shift-a gives ?

and so on.

I find this solution much simpler than switching keyboards, and the Perfect Keyboard Pro program lets me use these key combinations to produce these special characters wherever I can enter text.

Is this possible with Linux on its own? Or with some software for Linux? It is probably the biggest stumbling block for me switching to Linux for my work.

Any answers from you all would be much appreciated!

[markwolfe Veteran]

I use a "compose" option for my keyboard map, bound to the menu key (the Windows key beside the right Win logo key).

Menu-a-' gives me ?

Menu-c-, gives ?

Menu-3-4 gives ?

and so on

The actual line in my startup is

setxkbmap -option compose:menu

[Sensayshun]

Oh yes it does.  And its ****ing me off lol.  Ive been using Ubuntu64 for the last few days, not only does it auto-mount, it automatically pops up the file brower to the proper directory and also creates a short-cut on the desktop.  Does it with the cd/dvd drives, my external usb hard drive, Olympus D-580 camera and my old 256 meg mp3 player.

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I find it annoying as well. I don't mind it with my USB stick or with a camera but I do mind it with CD's. I just find it an annoyance, an unnecessary one.

Didn't really add alot to the topic, just wanted to share that it annoys me too. :p

[Mike Douglas]

I find it annoying as well. I don't mind it with my USB stick or with a camera but I do mind it with CD's. I just find it an annoyance, an unnecessary one.

Didn't really add alot to the topic, just wanted to share that it annoys me too. :p

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System -> Preferences -> Removable Drives and Media to modify what Ubuntu does when you insert a CD.

[Shadrack]

Is Linux too hard?

Answer: Linux can be hard, but for general use is not very hard at all. (Lack of some hardware driver support aside).

If it doesn't support the kind of programs you need to get your job done, then no it isn't for you. But that is a very specialized and specific answer. For me, a lot of the Engineering programs I need to run are only on Windows. Sure there are some alternatives, like Octave can be used a lot of times in place of Matlab. When there is no viable substitute for a lot of the software you've invested hundreds and thousands of dollars into on Linux, how quickly it falls out of the picture. But that doesn't mean Linux is too hard.

If an OS is hard or not just has to do with how well you get around and execute orders to your computer. Its more of a matter of learning conventions then anything else. As an example, Mac OS X was really making me mad because I couldn't find the "Auto-Arrange" option for my icons in folders. Turns out it was called "Keep Aligned." I felt like such an idiot, but I must have overlooked it a dozen or so times until I had to get someone to show me.

@trace: I find visual studio.net programming irritating and overly complicated to be honest :p. Maybe I just haven't spent enough time with it, but programming on Linux is really intuitive for me. You seem concerned about what your final display is going to look like, but I'm more concerned about abstracting my program away from the display logic so that my application can be adapted into Linux, Windows or Mac OS seamlessly. The term RAD is really a marketing term that Microsoft manufactured that was selling the idea that using their programming platform will somehow make you work faster. I don't even think they use that terminology anymore. I guess the idea is that with Microsoft's line of program platforming you get this vast library of re-usable code that you can plug into your application on demand. And it is true, they do have that. But they didn't invent that idea, its been around for awhile and is available on other programming platforms.

Although, they do have a very nice editor in their IDE. I like how it does its "autosense" or whatever stuff. Very helpful in getting your syntax right the first time through. But, I'm a sucker for Vim.

[markwolfe Veteran]

Sure there are some alternatives, like Octave can be used a lot of times in place of Matlab.

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Ummm.. You did know that Matlab is available native to Linux, right?

http://www.mathworks.com/products/matlab/requirements.html

[CaKeY]

Ha ha nic! 0wn3d!

[E t h a n]

I use a "compose" option for my keyboard map, bound to the menu key (the Windows key beside the right Win logo key).

Menu-a-' gives me ?

Menu-c-, gives ?

Menu-3-4 gives ?

and so on

The actual line in my startup is

setxkbmap -option compose:menu

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Thanks! But I guess I'm wondering if there's a way to remap the keyboard globally so that I can proceed within Linux as I do within Windows. You see, I've become very fast at typing using the particular keystokes I've mapped out on Windows.

For instance, I type English at about seventy or eighty words a minute. And, using those mapped keystrokes as necessary, I type two other languages at forty and thirty words a minute respectively. In other words, I'm very heavily invested in terms of efficiency and speed in having my keyboard mapped out a particular way. I was just hoping there was a way to duplicate exactly the setup I've got with Windows. I suppose I could try to retrain myself, but it'd set me back a lot as I need to do a lot of typing in all three languages.

[markwolfe Veteran]

Ha ha nic!  0wn3d!

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Hey. I don't go around "pwning" anybody.

Thanks!  But I guess I'm wondering if there's a way to remap the keyboard globally so that I can proceed within Linux as I do within Windows.  You see, I've become very fast at typing using the particular keystokes I've mapped out on Windows.

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There may be. I am pretty sure that there is, but I have never looked into setting it up any particular way, as the compose function just works fine for me.

[raid517]

This just sounds like the usual bunch of n00bs complaining about what they don't know how to do rather than what they can't do.

GJ

[markwolfe Veteran]

In defense of the "noobs", there is a bit of Windows "unlearning", and Linux "learning" that needs to occur. In Windows, which they have been raised on, for the most part, they are a user. In Linux, you must learn to also be an administrator.

[binkgle]

i tried ubuntu, mepis, fedora, and mandrake, and NONE of them ever worked with my sound card (sb live! 5.1). i never got any sounds to come out of the computer in linux, and i spent about two months on probably four or five linux forums desperately trying to get help. and nobody had any solutions. if linux can't use a sound card that's been on the market for so long (five years, i think, maybe more) right out of the box, then it's not ready for me.

also, i could never get used to openoffice next to msoffice. for me msoffice (and especially word, which is the part of office i use 99% of the time) is exactly how it should be. so many of the commands and shotcuts were either slightly or completely different in openoffice. also i have to do a lot of writing in french and i found no easy keyboard shortcuts to writing accented letters.

i was dual-booted with xp and linux, and i never could spend long in linux, as i couldn't do any work (really hated openoffice), nor could i listen to any music. i consider myself a windows power-user, and so much of linux just seemed counter-intuitive to me.

[dduardo]

I have a sb live! 5.1 and works perfectly. The module is called emu10k1.

modprobe emu10k1

Personally, I just build it into the kernel, but that's up to you.

[Miuku.]

so many of the commands and shotcuts were either slightly or completely different in openoffice.

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Newsflash: OOo is not Microsoft Office and it is not SUPPOSED or INTENDED to follow the same design principles, it's a totally seperate program with a design mentality of its own.

i consider myself a windows power-user

Not to sound like an ass, but a "windows power user" doesn't go far in my books, what you're saying really is that you were able to push a few buttons around and know a few shortcuts.

if linux can't use a sound card that's been on the market for so long

Do not confuse the operating systems capabilities with your own inaptitude or unwillingness to learn. It works fine, has been supported for years.

[raid517]

i tried ubuntu, mepis, fedora, and mandrake, and NONE of them ever worked with my sound card (sb live! 5.1).  i never got any sounds to come out of the computer in linux, and i spent about two months on probably four or five linux forums desperately trying to get help.  and nobody had any solutions.  if linux can't use a sound card that's been on the market for so long (five years, i think, maybe more) right out of the box, then it's not ready for me. 

also, i could never get used to openoffice next to msoffice.  for me msoffice (and especially word, which is the part of office i use 99% of the time) is exactly how it should be.  so many of the commands and shotcuts were either slightly or completely different in openoffice. also i have to do a lot of writing in french and i found no easy keyboard shortcuts to writing accented letters. 

i was dual-booted with xp and linux, and i never could spend long in linux, as i couldn't do any work (really hated openoffice), nor could i listen to any music.  i consider myself a windows power-user, and so much of linux just seemed counter-intuitive to me.

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I concurr. If you had liked MS office so much, it is perfectly possible to install it using Crossover Office. The sound card issue was not even an issue. Of course the Sound Blaster card is fully supported in Linux. The fact that you probably just didn't know how to unmute the volume to get it to work - or at worst how to insert the driver - is an indication of your own unwillingness to learn (and also to unlearn the Windows way of doing things). (Why you Windows guys expect something that has nothing to do with Windows to work like Windows I will never figure out)

How can I say this? Am I being unjust, or deliberately harsh, or unfair? No! Why? Well because as you said you asked on a whole bunch of forums how to get your card to work - and you never got a satisfactory answer. Why didn't you get a statisfactory answer? Because the fact that you asked on these forums pretty much shows that you never really tried to do any real research of your own. I mean it's fair enough if you have an unusual problem that doesn't have an immediately obvious answer - I am still a learner - and sometimes I still have problems like this myself - and even after 5 years I am still learning new things. But the question of 'how do I get my old venerable soundblaster 5.1 soundcard to work in linux' is a question that has been asked and answered a zillion times over on a zillion different forums and online help doccuments in an infinate variety of ways over the last 5 or 6 years since the card was first supported. It is probably one of THE most common Linux related questions ever asked. So does it still suprise you now that you never got a 'statisfactory' answer on the various forums you asked on?

The purpose and much of the ethos behind Linux is that it involves a great deal of personal research. People will help you - but generally they won't be too inspired to help, if you make it clear that you have made no effort at all to learn yourself. Nor is it very helpfull if you simply come on forums and ask questions that have been asked a zillion times over by a zillion different people in the past - and then expect other users to spend their time endlessly repeating themselves over and over, and over to everyone who feels the urge to ask these endlessly repetative questions.

98% of what I have seen here is about you guys not knowing how to do things - and being unwilling to invest the effort to learn how to do them correctly.

Can't convert music? I'm sitting here with a tool with the most simple GUI imaginable that will let me convert virtually any form of music into any other form of music. Can't watch WinampTV? How odd, I just fired up Kaffeine Player and can watch Winamp TV without an issue. Can't run MS Office? Erm... You had better tell my wife that as she uses it in Linux every day, can't remap keys? Well for crying out loud, Linux is all about keyboard control - real purists argue you should never even need to use a mouse, because you can remap all your keys and key combinations until the cows come home. Can't use XYZ Windows software, well have you ever hear of Wine, Crossover Office, or Cedega? Did someone mention Foobar? On a whim I just tried it (Not that I need it). And from what I can see it works without a glitch in crossover office. Not all of your Windows software will work. But there is a very good reason for that. Suprising as it might sound, this is because Linux is NOT Windows - so really if you think about it, you shouldn't expect everything to work. But for those things that don't work, there is often a good substitute. I could go on, but the point is almost everything has a solution - if you are willing to research it. If you are not willing to research, well that is fine too - but you should at least know better than to blame the OS.

GJ

[binkgle]

really, you could have told me i was wrong politely, but from my experience with hardcore linux-users that's kind of impossible. i mean, if someone asks me for help or doesn't know how to do something in windows, i help them nicely. i don't yell at them for be stupid and not bothering to firgure it out themselves.

anyway, the most common suggestions i was given about the soundblaster was editing the alsaconf, unmuting the card, installing the modprobe, the list goes on and on. i didn't take the advice and do nothign with it, i seriously trid to get it to work. and it didn't

and yes, i worked on learning how to use linux, but i can't devote my life to it. i have school, homework, my family and my social life. i asked for help on forums because i didn't have the time to figure out how to use the terminal all on my own. i had to start somewhere, so i used forums.

[Barney T. Administrators]

really, you could have told me i was wrong politely, but from my experience with hardcore linux-users that's kind of impossible.  i mean, if someone asks me for help or doesn't know how to do something in windows, i help them nicely.  i don't yell at them for be stupid and not bothering to firgure it out themselves. 

anyway, the most common suggestions i was given about the soundblaster was editing the alsaconf, unmuting the card, installing the modprobe, the list goes on and on.  i didn't take the advice and do nothign with it, i seriously trid to get it to work.  and it didn't

and yes, i worked on learning how to use linux, but i can't devote my life to it.  i have school, homework, my family and my social life.  i asked for help on forums because i didn't have the time to figure out how to use the terminal all on my own.  i had to start somewhere, so i used forums.

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Hi....

Well.. I find folks here on this forum to be quite helpful and not nearly as testy as those of other forums. If you pose the question here and are willing to try the advice given (and don't give up), you'll get your problem resolved. Linux hardware fixes can be a bit confusing at first, but the end results are usually quite satisfactory.

And using an OS is totally up to the individual's taste and requirements for what they want to do. It really doesn't matter what others think. If it works for you, that is what you should use!

Barney

[raid517]

really, you could have told me i was wrong politely, but from my experience with hardcore linux-users that's kind of impossible.  i mean, if someone asks me for help or doesn't know how to do something in windows, i help them nicely.  i don't yell at them for be stupid and not bothering to firgure it out themselves. 

anyway, the most common suggestions i was given about the soundblaster was editing the alsaconf, unmuting the card, installing the modprobe, the list goes on and on.  i didn't take the advice and do nothign with it, i seriously trid to get it to work.  and it didn't

and yes, i worked on learning how to use linux, but i can't devote my life to it.  i have school, homework, my family and my social life.  i asked for help on forums because i didn't have the time to figure out how to use the terminal all on my own.  i had to start somewhere, so i used forums.

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I think people have been polite here - and patient. But it does often get frustrating when people blame an OS, or their computer for things that they don't know. The question I asked is a valid one, in that how exactly is it your computer's fault because you don't know how to do something? Isn't the solution to this, instead of just blaming your computer - or whatever operating system you might be using, simply to try to figure out how you can do it? To investigate and research fully whether it is possible or not?

No one means to be rude, if you don't have time to learn how to do things differently, or how to learn to use Linux effectively, the best solution for you is not to use it! It's that simple, no one will think any less of you for it. But if you do want to use Linux, you will have to accept that there is a degree of learning (as well as unlearning) involved - and that a lot of emphasis when using this OS is placed on personal research. That is just the way it is I'm afraid. It may well involve more of an investment in time than you are used to - it may not - but I think you are missing the point a little. For me computers - and Linux in particular is a hobby. That is the way I treat it, that is how I consider it. All hobbies require a certain investment in time - and Linux is no different to me in this respect than any other hobby. I tend to simply treat it like a puzzle. I don't stress out when things don't work right away, because I view making things work and learning how to get them to work better in the future as the challenge. That for me is what makes it interesting.

I agree that I don't think Linux is for the average user (although there are some distros that claim to make it easier than others) but that's OK in my book - because I gave up imagining I was an average user a long time ago. I'm a bit of a freak really, in that it is probably just not normal to know as much about computers and technology as I do. But hey, like I said, it's my hobby - and guys do tend to get pretty obsessive about their hobbies.

But at the end of the day having jumped through a lot of hoops I have what can only be described as a pretty cool desktop OS, one that plays a large number of top branded games, that is as pretty (for me) to look at as OS X or Windows, that has a wide selection of software (from both Windows and Linux), can play (and convert) any movie, or type of music you care to mention, can tune into any kind of streaming media - and is good enough for even the most inept Windows user to be able to use. I know this because my friend just bought a PC a month ago for the first time. And when he came round to my house he seemed blissfully unaware of the difference between his Windows machine and my Linux box. He downloaded some (ahem!) alternative content, burned it all to CD, wrote a letter, and then faxed it to his employers and then chatted on MSN messenger (via Kopete) with his friends with only the minimal amount of prompting by me to show him how to do this. Nor during this time did I have to worry at all about the possibility of him accidentally downloading a virus or any kind of nasty spyware.

So really while it may take a long time to get there - and there might be a lot of hoops to jump through first - in the end it is probably very worthwhile to do.

GJ

[binkgle]

i really wanted to get linux working, i just didn't have the time. i guess i'll try again when the next ubuntu is released (ubuntu was my favorite of the ditos i tried).

also, is there a way to get my ipod to work in linux? it would be great if i could transfer my music to and from it in linux (i don't actually have linux installed right now, but hopefully i'll soon get an extra hard drive for it)

[Crimson Behelit]

i really wanted to get linux working, i just didn't have the time.  i guess i'll try again when the next ubuntu is released (ubuntu was my favorite of the ditos i tried). 

also, is there a way to get my ipod to work in linux?  it would be great if i could transfer my music to and from it in linux (i don't actually have linux installed right now, but hopefully i'll soon get an extra hard drive for it)

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Link.

[LaNcom]

Or, more precisely (iPod on Linux):

http://amarok.kde.org/

http://www.gtkpod.org/