Joni_78 Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Interesting theory. Link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icecaveman Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Not gonna happen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PT 13 Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Not gonna happen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tungsten T Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 No way in hell. Thats why they are developing the anounced OS X.5 and **** rite so they can pay developers to **** around and then just dump it all and go to another os. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoXY Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Active Server Pages error 'ASP 0126' Include file not found /article2/0,1895,1923151,00.asp, line 377 The include file '/component/util_generate_article_discussion_info/0,1460,a=171069,00.asp' was not found. :no: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_architect Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Same error as above ^^ :| Did someone save a copy of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotdog666al Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 To even suggest such a thing they must have only just found out that Apple make computers and done absolutly no research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redfish Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 all of the pages for commentary articles on that site are giving that error , just cool it and wait until they resolve the issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catharsis Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 I'm surprised I didn't have an aneurysm just READING the title of this post. :omg: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshpo Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 I read this earlier. John Dvorak is a total clown. This will never happen in a million years, why would anyone buy overpriced hardware just to run Windows on it? People buy macs for OSX and for the simplicity. Apple is far more likely to open OSX up to all x86 machines and rival Windows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paralex Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Of course they will, Apple already [click to continue]... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuarterSwede Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 I read this earlier. John Dvorak is a total clown. This will never happen in a million years, why would anyone buy overpriced hardware just to run Windows on it? Because OS X isn't a great gaming OS (it could be but video card manufacturers make most cards for Windows). Also, Why would Apple restrict anyone from using Windows on a MacTel? Once you buy one Apple has your money. Most of the best apps come with the purchase of a new Mac anyway. *I haven't read the article because it is still down, so my comments may be a bit off. Trying to guess at what was actually said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadishTM Veteran Posted February 17, 2006 Veteran Share Posted February 17, 2006 http://www.tuaw.com/2006/02/16/dvorak-off-...ing-to-windows/ ^ For people who can't see the PC Mag article. Radish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoXY Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 http://www.tuaw.com/2006/02/16/dvorak-off-...ing-to-windows/ ^ For people who can't see the PC Mag article. Radish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aristotle-dude Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 The guy is off his meds for sure. Apple's main advantage is OS X and the Cocoa API. Cocoa is sort of like Apple's answer to .NET except that it has been around for decades and you are not completely babied in a "managed" environment. The managed code may sound great but it can lead to major performance problems when you are allocating and de-allocating a lot resources often and working with large data sets. This due in part to the non-deterministic garbage collection. Imagine a sink full of vegetable matter and say that you have no control over when the garbafe disposal unit turns on. Search this forum to see examples of people creating webkit based browsers or coredata based to do lists with no coding leveraging the power of Cocoa and stored objects in nib files. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the evn show Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 The guy is off his meds for sure. Apple's main advantage is OS X and the Cocoa API. Cocoa is sort of like Apple's answer to .NET except that it has been around for decades and you are not completely babied in a "managed" environment. It's not like Windows doesn't offer your the option of unmanaged code for performance sensitive applications and Objective C* is a runtime environment with garbage collection implimented as reference counting. and it pays higher performance penalties for a number of common tasks (like message passing). With processors getting ever faster and all but a few tasks staying relatively consistent in their lust for cycles, it really doesn't make sense to pass off the benefits of a managed environment. There are also serious costs for many of OS X's graphical capabilities: the OpenGL Fast-path is anything but. Having the features of the .Net CLR would be a boon to Mac OS X developers: I'm tired of hunting down missing 'release' messages. Search this forum to see examples of people creating webkit based browsers or coredata based to do lists with no coding leveraging the power of Cocoa and stored objects in nib files. How many code-free address books (that ignore AddressBook.framework) do we need? What really matters is how hard it is to write something worth while. My money is still on Cocoa+Objective C over C#.Net (see delicious monster, panic, macromates) with all things kept equal, but Xcode really sucks compared to VisualStudio and it's important not to discount the roll of the IDE. * I know you know this, but other forum members may not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aristotle-dude Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 It's not like Windows doesn't offer your the option of unmanaged code for performance sensitive applications and Objective C* is a runtime environment with garbage collection implimented as reference counting. and it pays higher performance penalties for a number of common tasks (like message passing). With processors getting ever faster and all but a few tasks staying relatively consistent in their lust for cycles, it really doesn't make sense to pass off the benefits of a managed environment. There are also serious costs for many of OS X's graphical capabilities: the OpenGL Fast-path is anything but. Having the features of the .Net CLR would be a boon to Mac OS X developers: I'm tired of hunting down missing 'release' messages. How many code-free address books (that ignore AddressBook.framework) do we need? What really matters is how hard it is to write something worth while. My money is still on Cocoa+Objective C over C#.Net (see delicious monster, panic, macromates) with all things kept equal, but Xcode really sucks compared to VisualStudio and it's important not to discount the roll of the IDE. * I know you know this, but other forum members may not. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of applications are written against Win32 on windows rather than .NET and .NET did not ship with XP so it is pretty much moot. Have you ever tried to integrate unmanaged code with managed code? It is a dog's breakfast. By comparison, integrating c code components into an OSX app is a breeze. There are plenty of examples of OSS were the GUI is wired into command line utilities. I think the CLR creates lazy developers. You should be aware of when and were your resources are released. For desktop apps, .NET may be great but when you get into multi-tier enterprise software, the garbage collection can be the Achilles heel. In some cases, you would want to perform a reference count and force the release of resources. I'm only using those browsers/organizers as examples of how easy it is to start a project. Some of those projects could evolve into something useful like a full fledged PIM tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detroit Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 wth has Dvorak been smoking??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the evn show Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 (edited) The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of applications are written against Win32 on windows rather than .NET and .NET did not ship with XP so it is pretty much moot. I don't really understand the argument. I didn't say Cocoa was the answer to .Net, and I don't think what ships with the OS really matters in a discussion about their relative merits. The fact that one ships with the OS (though different versions on every major release) and one ships via the OS update and runs fine across all recent versions of an OS shouldn't really be a factor. .Net and Cocoa are widely accepted solutions and first-rate development environments on their respective platforms with full support by the OS vendor. A fair number of OS X applications are written against carbon including the big two: creative suite and office. Have you ever tried to integrate unmanaged code with managed code? It is a dog's breakfast. Oddly enough, that's what I'm doing at work right now. We're building some fancy image processing applications for a client that has a booth at PMA. We're using .Net for the interface and some of the light-weight processing and optimized C or C++ libraries for expensive corrections or for things which we've licensed but were only able to get header files and DLLs. I wouldn't say it's been terribly difficult but then again I'm only managing the programming on this project; my semi-colon and squiggly bracket days are behind me for the time being, save for hunting down the occasional bug. It certainly hasn't been a significant drain on our resources and I have my doubts that we'd have been able to produce something as good in C++. Normally I wouldn't break out anecdotes but you asked. I think the CLR creates lazy developers. You should be aware of when and were your resources are released. I like lazy developers. I find they're more likely to document code, avoid "neat tricks", and they tend to find the most effective way to get the job done. My programming thoughts are obviously the opposite of yours: a developer should be able able for focus on business logic. I'm paid to solve a problem, not make sure that retain counts don't drop below zero too soon. The more mindless work I can leave to the computer the better my application will be. Reference counting has issues of it's own. At the end of it all you're still responsible for managing memory and that eventually leads to memory leaks or get null references once you start doing copies or retains in another scope (especially after midnight). Auto release pools are a start, but they're far form foolproof. And of course when you start dealing with things that don't have nice Cocoa front ends (feel like writting a 64-bit app?) you run into all the hassles of C++ whether you want them or not. I honestly think this whole "be aware of all your resources" argument is pointless: we've both decided to give up some level of control to the operating system, compiler, and runtime. For desktop apps, .NET may be great but when you get into multi-tier enterprise software, the garbage collection can be the Achilles heel. Are there any multi-tear enterprise applications written in Cocoa+Objective C? Honest question, I'm not aware of any nor do I really have any idea how to find out. One thing I do know: I'd have better luck finding 10 live dinosaurs than I would finding 10 local Cocoa programmers. There just aren't that many Cocoa types to go around. It's like they've decided not to touch any new projects until this whole Intel thing settles down, or maybe they're all writing universal binaries—either way, I can't find any. Edited February 17, 2006 by the evn show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirk26 Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 John C. Dvorak-not exactly a writer to be taken seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boogerjones Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 You should've said Dvorak wrote the article and saved me 100KB of bandwidth. He's so full of **** he's gonna start leaking feces out of that fat grin of his. Would Apple alienate every one of their customers? Would Apple help to increase their primary competitor's bottom line? It's like asking a democrat to switch to a republican platform in the middle of a campaign. I've noticed that all Dvorak does is write things that are so far off just to attract attention to his column. He's a senseless puppet for a formerly useful website. Every time I read an HP printer review on PCMag, there's an HP advertisement on the same page. :| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AppleDave Veteran Posted February 17, 2006 Veteran Share Posted February 17, 2006 The day Apple adopts Windoze is the day I chuck my iMac out the window. (no pun intended) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leddy Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 You should've said Dvorak wrote the article and saved me 100KB of bandwidth. He's so full of **** he's gonna start leaking feces out of that fat grin of his. Would Apple alienate every one of their customers? Would Apple help to increase their primary competitor's bottom line? It's like asking a democrat to switch to a republican platform in the middle of a campaign. I've noticed that all Dvorak does is write things that are so far off just to attract attention to his column. He's a senseless puppet for a formerly useful website. Every time I read an HP printer review on PCMag, there's an HP advertisement on the same page. :| The day that Apple adopts Windows is the day I buy a Mac. No doubt many other people are like me; Mac OS X despiser, but Apple design lover. Either that, or PC laptop makers start putting some creative flair and style into their laptop design. Honestly, Apple might actually get increased sales from shipping Macs with Windows on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fudgetunnel Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 John C. Dvorak-not exactly a writer to be taken seriously. yeah, because he was soooo off the mark when he predicted that Apple would switch to Intel processors... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazzy88ss Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 ROFL! this thread's funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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