My first website for a business

[Matt T]

A few months ago, I approached a local business in my area because they were looking for someone to design a website for them. They are a Holden Dealership, and are one of the only dealerships in our area. Because I'm still in school, it took me a few months to whip this up because I have 6-7 hours of school every Monday-to-Friday, and homework/assignments on top of that, so as you can imagine, I'm glad to finally get this off my back.

I'm happy with the result, and more importantly, so is the boss. It's not "officially" online yet - I'm waiting until they pay me and they still haven't got themselves a domain name yet - so I've uploaded it onto my web space for the time being. I'm looking for some comments and critique - please let me know what you honestly think.

http://www.cubiz.org/surfair/index.htm

Before you start giving me your opinion, let me give you a few details. I'm 16, so I haven't been doing this for as long as everyone else here - I'm still a bit of a web design virgin. My PC isn't anything top-of-the-market, so it can't handle anything like Photoshop or Flash. I used Fireworks for all the graphics and photo editing, and for the coding, I mostly used Dreamweaver but I also used a bit of Notepad every here and there.

I know I'm going to get criticized for the Javascript slideshow on the index, but like I said, I wasn't able to use Flash and this business wanted a rotating slideshow to advertise certain vehicles and offers. They said they were very happy with it, so that's the most important thing to me.

Some of the photos of the dealership itself aren't fantastic because it's in a location that makes it very hard to get a decent shot of. For some shots, I needed to stand in the middle of the road to get it to fit just right. Thank god I live in a quite town! And also, I don't have an expensive camera - it's a Canon Powershot A400; it gets the job done.

So again, I would appreciate your comments and critique. If you notice any hiccups (spelling errors, broken links, ect) please let me know. :)

[Dick Montage]

Admittedly I only looked at the first page, but that's what I base first impressions on. I like it, it's very pro!

[Druw]

Wow, that is just amazing. Great job for 16 years old. Im impressed.

[0sit0]

i started like him copying off other sites but now i do my own designs (not that i have many)

but i really think you copied some parts from the toyota website

[samriley]

if youre looking to charge people for webdesign then you really need to look in to standards, semantics and general web page coding practices. for example your js and css should be in external files. tables shouldnt be used for layout etc.

[alsheron]

if youre looking to charge people for webdesign then you really need to look in to standards, semantics and general web page coding practices. for example your js and css should be in external files. tables shouldnt be used for layout etc.

Tables shouldn't be used for layout? Come on..... Tables are perfect for quie a few layout tasks. They're excellently supported and simple to use, administer, and edit.

There are many ways of doing things where website layout is concerned and tables are a perfectly valid choice.

CSS is more powerful, etc, but sometimes tables are suited perfectly to a particular job......

[extasy]

Even though he has copied the design (which is a shame) from toyota, i think he's done quite well with the coding side.

I would also like to point out that he shouldn't be making money at his age with work like this..

Although i was once in his exact position, even i admit that for getting paid - you need to have a certain amount of skill level, and although he scraped off on this one, he should learn much more ( and wait ) until offering web services.

[JiveMasterT]

I think it looks good and I wouldn't worry about it looking like the toyota website. There's only so many ways you can arrange something on a website before it starts to look like another one. Pretty much every car website I've ever been to reminded me of another car website, and this one is no different. It is however, nice and easy to navigate. I'll look at the code later and voice my opinions about that as well.

[samriley]

"There are many ways of doing things where website layout is concerned and tables are a perfectly valid choice."

no tables should NEVER be used for layout, ever.

[Long]

You all seem to be missing the point here with copying Toyota's site. It's not as light as 'oh it looks like another site', but it could be a serious offence against their intellectual property.

I mean they have the same dots style, the same bullet point styles, the same height for the red bar on the products page. It's not only similar layouts, but specific components of the site has been obviously copied nearly pixel by pixel.

I'm being harsh because taking intellectual property is a serious offence, and if you get rewarded for it (such as getting paid in this case), it can induce you into further activities.

[Matt T]

Thank you Alsheron.

I still maintain that I copied nothing from Toyota's site. I agree that they both look extremely similar, but my site is my work, my ideas and my layout, so please stop accusing me of stealing somebody else's work.

Samriley, I don't see a problem with using tables in websites. And like I said before, my computer can't handle anything too fancy (isn't GoLive the best application for CSS design and layout?), not to mention I can't afford much due to my limited funds.

Extasy, I see no reason why I should be paid. This was a job, I worked hard to finish it, and I personally think I did a good job. I'm not expecting to get paid the same amount as a pro, but still...

And thank you everyone for your comments :)

edit: Long, I agree with you that copying Toyota's design could be a serious offense - that's why I didn't copy it.

[Andre]

edit: Long, I agree with you that copying Toyota's design could be a serious offense - that's why I didn't copy it.

Proving in court the odds of someone creating pretty much the same layout without ever seeing it, is hard if not impossible. While everybody is praising your work you can't deny the facts some here have presented. You could say you have never seen the Toyota website, but then you might as well have seen it briefly which could have been enough to record in your memory and influence your work. Whatever it is in the end, both layouts do look very similar and to be honestly yours doesn't amaze me persoanlly that much. And I'm not trying to discourage you but take seriously what other people say, other than those who praise your work.. not that there's anything wrong with it, but that alone won't get you far. It's obviously hard to swallow the facts, but think twice before you present the work to your client and do consider the criticism some have given here.

isn't GoLive the best application for CSS design and layout?

It's what you make out of it and not the application. You can use Notepad for all I care and still create stunning work.

BAI

[samriley]

nope the best any only thing that should be used for web development is a good text editor like ultra edit. using a wysinwyg will always provide bad code that is harder to manage, update, consumes more bandwidth etc

http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/everything.html

that site gives a good ovverview of the advantages of semantic code.

[Nashy]

nope the best any only thing that should be used for web development is a good text editor like ultra edit. using a wysinwyg will always provide bad code that is harder to manage, update, consumes more bandwidth etc

http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/everything.html

that site gives a good ovverview of the advantages of semantic code.

So you are saying Dreamwever does a bad job? :rolleyes:

[Matt T]

Proving in court the odds of someone creating pretty much the same layout without ever seeing it, is hard if not impossible. While everybody is praising your work you can't deny the facts some here have presented. You could say you have never seen the Toyota website, but then you might as well have seen it briefly which could have been enough to record in your memory and influence your work. Whatever it is in the end, both layouts do look very similar and to be honestly yours doesn't amaze me persoanlly that much. And I'm not trying to discourage you but take seriously what other people say, other than those who praise your work.. not that there's anything wrong with it, but that alone won't get you far. It's obviously hard to swallow the facts, but think twice before you present the work to your client and do consider the criticism some have given here.

I'm not ignoring the negative comments about my site; all I'm saying is that I didn't steal anyone's design. On the contrary, I welcome criticism because it helps me learn and improve my work.

Can we please move away from the "you stole from Toyota" thing - I'll say it again; I stole nobodys design and I'm not changing my story because it's the truth.

[JiveMasterT]

alright, well, if you didn't steal it then might I advise you to try to change a few things to make yours look a little more different? I'm not saying you stole the design... it just is a bit similar thats all.

[Long]

So what if the site looks a lot like Toyota's? Most websites mimic others anyway, he's not a Flash/Web 2 developer so (as with most people) his site looks "suspiciously" like someone elses site - namely half the car websites on the internet.

None of these sites look like either other:

http://toyota.com.au/toyota/main/HomePage/..._402_hl,00.html

http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/

http://www.honda.com.au/cars/flash.htm

http://ford.com.au/

http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com.au/mitssi...pages/index.jsp

http://www.saab.com/main/AU/en/index_flash.shtml

Long: saying things like "I'm very disappointed" is utterly absurd and frankly, without any good reason (his site being similar to other websites is NOT good reason)

Whats absurd and frankly about being disappointed? He has designed heaps of great stuff in the past, and then he brings out this which I believe he copied from someone else's work, I can't be disappointed?

[PrimoTurbo]

Thank you Alsheron.

I still maintain that I copied nothing from Toyota's site. I agree that they both look extremely similar, but my site is my work, my ideas and my layout, so please stop accusing me of stealing somebody else's work.

Samriley, I don't see a problem with using tables in websites. And like I said before, my computer can't handle anything too fancy (isn't GoLive the best application for CSS design and layout?), not to mention I can't afford much due to my limited funds.

Extasy, I see no reason why I should be paid. This was a job, I worked hard to finish it, and I personally think I did a good job. I'm not expecting to get paid the same amount as a pro, but still...

And thank you everyone for your comments :)

edit: Long, I agree with you that copying Toyota's design could be a serious offense - that's why I didn't copy it.

You copied/imitated the design and layout and now you are pretending that you didn?t. There is no chance you could some how come up with an identical design like that. It?s so obvious that you copied it. I would hate to be in a situation you are now in, because it?s hard for you to backtrack and admit it. Especially when you already showed the site off to the guy who runs that place. For your own sake, just admit it and learn to fix your mistakes, neowin won't think of you different if you simply admit it. We are here to help you, this is why this place is here.

Everyone starts out by copying or imitating sites that they like, the danger is if you publish such a site. Especially a commercial site, because then you will have consequences. It was easy for the neowin community to notice this, don?t think the people at Toyota won?t notice the site, all it takes is 1 person to report it and you are in serious trouble.

[jakeschneider]

Contrary to some belief on this forum I think it looks nice! You did a great job, bud, treat your self to a taco.

[Long]

Contrary to some belief on this forum I think it looks nice! You did a great job, bud, treat your self to a taco.

No one's saying it doesn't look nice, although everyone can't be Mr. Nice Guy and just praise him.

[Matt T]

I DIDN'T STEAL ANYONE'S DESIGN :angry:

For god's sake, drop it already.

[alsheron]

This thread is slowly decending into trolling...... I really don't have the energy but to say give it a break guys, he said he didn't steal anything and that isn't even the point of this thread.....

This thread is about webiste design feedback, not the legalities of intellectual property theft, of which, let me assure you, none has occured here..... Trust me on this one.

Either move it on, or if the barrage if irrelevancies continues relentlessly as seems to be happening, i suggest that you forget this thread Matt T and let them scap amongst themselves..... It's just getting plain silly......

[Nashy]

I'm also sure you have written permission from holden to design with their images? It doesn't matter that its a holden dealership, you need permission.

[LPC]

Listen to all these experts ... har har only a fool would.

Nice work on the site looks good, who cares if it's copied or even looks similar, deal with that if and when ya get legal letter. Nice easy to use site that clearly get the message accross, good job I'd pay ya if you made that for my company :).

[+John. Subscriber¹]

Wow...it's awesome! Images take a while to load, but aside from that, good job dude (Y)

[Matt T]

Nashy - I told the dealership that it was their responsibility to get all the legal stuff (like permission for images) sorted out. I assume they have, but if not, they're the ones who will get in trouble, not me.