Slimmer Linux needed for $100 laptop

[markwolfe Veteran]

Source: News.Com.com

Negroponte: Slimmer Linux needed for $100 laptop

BOSTON--The One Laptop Per Child organization will use Linux on its inexpensive machines, but the operating system suffers the same code bloat as Windows, the project's leader said Tuesday.

"People aren't thinking about small, fast, thin systems," said Nicholas Negroponte, chairman of the One Laptop Per Child nonprofit association, in a speech at the LinuxWorld Conference and Expo here. "Suddenly it's like a very fat person (who) uses most of the energy to move the fat. And Linux is no exception. Linux has gotten fat, too."

The association hopes to distribute 5 million to 10 million of the systems to children in India, China, Brazil, Argentina, Thailand, Egypt, and Nigeria in the first quarter of 2007, somewhat later than the late 2006 launch Negroponte predicted at the World Economic Forum last year. He hopes the project will help supply the world's billion children with an education that undertrained teachers often can't supply. "At least 50 percent of those children don't get anything that even approximates what you and I would call an education," he said.

Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates criticized the initiative's products earlier this year, saying they should use more powerful machines with better displays, though Gates subsequently offered a warmer opinion. Negroponte chafed at Gates' view nonetheless.

"It's not about a weak computer. It's about a thin, slim, trim, fast computer," he said. Not only that, Microsoft is even involved in the effort. "We are also talking to Microsoft constantly. We are going to ship them development boards. They are going to make a Windows CE version (that supports the hardware). So jeez--why criticize me in public?"

System specs

The system will use a 500MHz processor from Advanced Micro Devices with 128MB of memory. It will use 512MB of flash memory and no hard drive, he said. The biggest remaining cost is the display.

The system will use a dual-mode display with a black-and-white, 1110-by-830-pixel mode in sunlight and a 640-by-480-pixel color mode otherwise.

Negroponte said one meeting with an unnamed display manufacturer spotlighted the importance of high-volume manufacturing.

"I said, 'We'd like to work with you on the display. We need a small display. It doesn't have perfect color uniformity, it can have pixel or two missing, it doesn't have to be that bright," Negroponte recounted. "The manufacturer said, 'Our strategic plan is to make big displays with perfect color uniformity, zero pixel defects and to make it very bright for the living room.'"

"I said, 'That's too bad, because I need 100 million a year.' They said, 'Well, maybe we can change our strategic plan.' That's the reason you need scale," Negroponte said.

As initially envisioned, the laptops sported a hand crank on the side to generate power, but Negroponte has scrapped that idea because the twisting forces that would be bad for the machine. Instead, some form of power generation device, likely a pedal, will be attached to the AC power adapter, he said.

"I was the longest holdout for the crank being on the laptop. I was wrong," he said, adding, "If you're a 10-year-old, maybe you can get your four-year-old to pedal for you."

The organization's goal is to sell $135 laptops in 2007, then cut the price to $100 in 2008 and $50 in 2010, he said.

The machines will consume 2 watts of power when running, 1 watt for the display, Negroponte said.

He's not worried about connecting the machines to the Internet because networking will develop on its own, he said, but later added that the vision relies on a built-in "mesh" network that links all the machines, even when the rest of the computers are shut down.

"I think between WiFi, WiMax and 3G, that's going to happen," Negroponte said. "We're heading to the point where 50 percent of the world will have a cell phone or some kind of (communication device) within 18 months. It's too voice-centric, and I could campaign to make it more data-centric, but that's going to happen, too."

The laptops mesh networks will be anchored by data cached locally on $100 servers to be housed at schools, he added.

Once children have the laptops, they'll teach themselves, he predicted, making teacher training beside the point. "Teachers teach the kids? Give me a break," he said. "Give any kid an electronic game and the first thing they do is throw away the manual and the second thing they do is use it."

The thing that I wonder about, is how "Linux" could be fat? I am guessing that what they are testing now has a full Gnome or KDE DE. A lighter IceWM or XFCE would still be visually appealing and easy to use, and consume a heck of a lot less of the resources. It would be nice for more information in that department.

Also I think it is nice that they are letting Microsoft get these units, too, to work on a Windows version. Choice is good (though I personally much prefer the freedom that Linux gives over Windows any day).

[matt74441]

It makes me wonder what exactly they're running on it. I've seen some pretty lean Linux distros that are very functional, so they must be doing something wrong.

[Blackice]

Well, they obviously want something with a good UI. I mean, you can't ship laptops to children in 3rd world countries, and sit them in front of a command line: they'd have the humanitarian organisations to deal with.

They do have a point though - the latest distros (which you'd need for security, compatibility, ease of use enhancements in the windowsing systems), all are a little high on the calories. An version might boost performance, but it would create security risks and compatibility issues.

WindowsCE would probably take off well for it though. Let's just hope all those countried recognise international copyright laws, and have the resources to track down illegal downloaders. In the target countries, this might be a problem, and have effects on Mcirosoft's product releases in those markets.

[markwolfe Veteran]

Well, they obviously want something with a good UI. I mean, you can't ship laptops to children in 3rd world countries, and sit them in front of a command line: they'd have the humanitarian organisations to deal with.

They do have a point though - the latest distros (which you'd need for security, compatibility, ease of use enhancements in the windowsing systems), all are a little high on the calories. An version might boost performance, but it would create security risks and compatibility issues.

WindowsCE would probably take off well for it though. Let's just hope all those countried recognise international copyright laws, and have the resources to track down illegal downloaders. In the target countries, this might be a problem, and have effects on Mcirosoft's product releases in those markets.

IceWM and XFCE are hardly "commandline", and are light enough for those specs and have a very good UI.

http://images.google.com/images?q=icewm

http://images.google.com/images?q=xfce

If they used CE, they would have to deal with licensing, as you pointed out. Even if Microsoft offered $0 WinCE, they would still not be free to copy as they like. Also, I don't think Win9x/2k/XP apps run in CE, so that is not an issue - unless I am not understanding what you meant by illegal downloaders and copyright. :ermm:

[Hurmoth]

The thing that I wonder about, is how "Linux" could be fat? I am guessing that what they are testing now has a full Gnome or KDE DE. A lighter IceWM or XFCE would still be visually appealing and easy to use, and consume a heck of a lot less of the resources. It would be nice for more information in that department.

Also I think it is nice that they are letting Microsoft get these units, too, to work on a Windows version. Choice is good (though I personally much prefer the freedom that Linux gives over Windows any day).

Average users might feel that IceWM or XFCE would be more difficult to use than Gnome or KDE. But that's just me speculating.

[MrA]

Source: News.Com.com

The thing that I wonder about, is how "Linux" could be fat? I am guessing that what they are testing now has a full Gnome or KDE DE. A lighter IceWM or XFCE would still be visually appealing and easy to use, and consume a heck of a lot less of the resources. It would be nice for more information in that department.

Also I think it is nice that they are letting Microsoft get these units, too, to work on a Windows version. Choice is good (though I personally much prefer the freedom that Linux gives over Windows any day).

Well, Linux is becomming fat. Not only in the GUI, but also at the kernel level with features such as NUMA, Infiniband, V4L, DVB and a multitude of other subsystems which are useless for this project. Granted, you'd probably compile without those, but the framework is still there.

And it doesn't really matter if you're using a lighter WM, X11 is still quite fat. What kind of $100 laptop needs a network-based graphics system (X11)? A better option would be something like DirectFB. Not as flexible as X11, but much lighter.

And as for windows, it'll cost as much as the laptop itself. Why bother?

[madnuke]

The question is what you want this laptop to do, I would think perhaps Debain would be a good choice a minimal install but with programes that are usefull and easy to use not some graphical line that you have to log into root to install.

[kingbob]

I get the feeling they wont be doing too much illegal downloading without a hard drive, on 512MB flash.

[CaKeY]

I get the feeling they wont be doing too much illegal downloading without a hard drive, on 512MB flash.

Your point?

[matt74441]

Average users might feel that IceWM or XFCE would be more difficult to use than Gnome or KDE. But that's just me speculating.

Well if this is the first computer that they've ever used, then it wouldn't matter what OS you throw in front of them. And as someone who has used IceWM, XFCE, Gnome, KDE and just about every version of Windows, there is nothing hard about any of the User Interfaces. Once you know where something is you never forget.

[kingbob]

Your point?

What is your point of asking my point? Someone mentioned they would have to track down illegal downloaders if they used Windows CE. Do you honestly think that anyone using the laptops are going to have downloading illegal content on their list of things to do? You really can't download anything with storage like that.

[Denis W. Veteran]

Your point?

What is your point of asking my point? Someone mentioned they would have to track down illegal downloaders if they used Windows CE. Do you honestly think that anyone using the laptops are going to have downloading illegal content on their list of things to do? You really can't download anything with storage like that.

You seem to forget that little kids over in those poor countries who, first off, barely have enough to survive on a day-to-day basis, won't even consider illegal downloading as something to do. :rolleyes:

Hell, as of now they don't know of any plans to hook these laptops to the Internet. The most they can do is form a wireless P2P network with neighbouring laptops.

Now for Linux, I'm no Linux user (I've been trying to get Ubuntu to work with my hardware but it keeps failing), but will Damn Small Linux work out?

[chopyaedoff]

How about using DSL (Damn Small Linux) - it only takes up 200MB and is very fast.

[DigeratiPrime]

slax popcorn is only 111MB. Its simple, small, and fast.

[Wheazel]

Intresting read.

slax popcorn is only 111MB. Its simple, small, and fast.

Even that is too large, since (if i'm not mistaken) they want the system to run on a total of 128MB, including linux/appz and memory for the operating system.

Thus it leaves 17MB of memory.

It shoudn't prove that hard to come up with something like WinCE, that works on smartphones, just a little big bigger and better wordprocessing and browser. What else are they going todo on such a laptop?

[Leddy]

For all purposes of this system Linux (ANY PC distribution of it with a GUI) is too fat.

[Pc_Madness]

Intresting read.

Even that is too large, since (if i'm not mistaken) they want the system to run on a total of 128MB, including linux/appz and memory for the operating system.

Thus it leaves 17MB of memory.

It shoudn't prove that hard to come up with something like WinCE, that works on smartphones, just a little big bigger and better wordprocessing and browser. What else are they going todo on such a laptop?

No its 512mb of Storage (flash memory), 128mb of RAM. Doesn't DSL come in at 50mb?

[chopyaedoff]

Doesn't DSL come in at 50mb?

The image for the OS in OS version does.

[Mathiasdm]

For all purposes of this system Linux (ANY PC distribution of it with a GUI) is too fat.

Actually, I think several GUI's would be fine.

Possibilities:

blackbox

badWM

Or some others in this list.

[B3AN]

What would be the licensing with Windows CE? Free? It would be a real shame if if they made it like Windows Starter edition.

I can't see how they can say Linux is fat, sure kde and gnome are getting to a bulky size. A really slimmed down kernel with a heavly customized version xfce (for example) would be fast.