Why FireFox Isn't For Me

[Cyber Dog]

I've officially had it. I've been using FireFox, Opera, and IE all for awhile now, and I finally went over the edge with the 'fox. All browsers have their evils, but this one just keeps finding ways to bug me. I'm planning on posting this as an article on my personal space, but first I want to see if I can get any non-trollish feedback.

And I'm sure I'll think up more items to add as I sit here, so I may edit as I go.

Moderator Note: This is not an anti-FF troll, nor a pro-whatever troll. I'm genuinely PO'd, and I'm writing to back up my feelings with documentation, and to share my experiences.

Performance/Memory: It?s no secret; FireFox uses more memory than the average elephant has to offer. The fanboys and even developers will come up with various excuses for the massive memory usage: everything from ?it?s a feature!? to ?who cares, my system has 10tb of ram!.? Shoddy programming is shoddy programming people. If the rest of the browsers on earth can open three web pages in less than 75 megs of ram, FireFox should be able The Developersvelopers: I?ve dabbled in several open source projects around the web, and I know a fair share of programming. I?m no Linus Torvalds, but I know my way around a source file. And I can say, without hesitation, that I find the FireFox developers somewhere between annoying and downright offensive. From my experience on the bugzilla, they are a very elitist, holier-than-thou group. Ideas deemed unworthy are often outright insulted, and they?re quite rude to people who are merely offering ideas, or even assistance. If you?re not in their circle, you?re not worthy of their time. I think the lack of patches being submitted by 3rd parties speaks for itself. If you want to see a successful group of OSS developers, go browse the Linux kernel mailing lists. That lot knows how to work with peoBug/request handlingg/request handling: In addition to the above, they show no decent review process for bugs and feature requests. All it takes is one dev with a hangover to read your request and WONTFIX it into the abyss. I?ve offered several requests, a few of which received support from several other users via votes and posts. The process is always the same: the request stagnates for a year or two, after which a WONTFIX is fired like a sniper shot with no discussion, and usually no more than a sentence of explanation. You could argue that maybe my ideas just were bad from the go, but I?ll say this: at least a couple were for common features in most other web Fanboysable today.

Fanboys: This one?s plain and simple: FireFox fanboys definitely suck. You won?t hear me promote any alternative browser here, because quite simply each has its merits and problems, and anyone who tells you otherwise is a biased zealot. Fanboys are annoying no matter what they promote, however FireFox has managed to spawn one of the more rabid followings of today?s age. These are the people who blindly attack other browsers, even if they?ve never used them, and will never admit to FireFox having a single flaw. So what if it?s using a gig of ram? That?s why systems today can have multiple gigs installed! There are some times in life where people just need to keep their opinions to themselves; two that comeHypocrisyon and web browsers.

Hypocrisy: Since the beginning, the FireFox team has made a big deal out of emphasizing that the actual FireFox web browser will be a minimal core, and that all features should be extensions. Well no sooner do they gain some market share and recognition do they throw their own rules out the window and start adding in ?features? that have nothing to do with the core browsing experience. One perfect example: a new feature in the upcoming 2.0 release is a spellchecker for web forms. Since when is spellchecking a core requirement of anything beyond a word processor? This feature screams ?extension,? and I know that personally, I don?t need any of these ?features? causing FireFox to use even more memory than it does already. But hey, it still makes a good excusExtensionsr peoples suggestions, doesn?t it?

Extensions: Extensions are a good thing, in theory. A system that allows anyone to extend functionality of the core sounds very promising. The problem is extensions are more often than not written by people in their spare time with mixed levels of programming experience and very limited quality control. The result is often buggy extensions that can produce a host of problems during the browsing experience: everything from memory leaks, to broken web pages, and browser crashes. The popular adblock series was infamous for big memory leaks. It took me a long time to figure out that my tabmix extension was causing certain javascripts to unexplainably stop working (which to date has not been addressed). Add in the fact that each minor version upgrade seems to break all your extensions, and the whole thing is suddenly looking much less attractive. Some browsers out there offer many of the features that people need to use tens of extensions toFocusand they do it with equal or less memory.

Focus: The direction of the development is deplorable. It?s a fairly easy task to find valid bugs in the bugzilla dating back several years! And yet new releases are focusing on adding new features! It?s not a complicated concept guys: fixCompatibilityy wrote before writing more new code.

Compatibility: A low blow? Maybe, but the list wouldn?t be complete without it. Mozilla browsers seem to be infamously strict with their code compliance, and there are still plenty of corporate intranets that won?t work with it. Of course, you can always place the blame for this gripe on the web developers, but the bottom line is, when choosing a web browser, this one doesn?t always ?just work.? Oh, and how?s that Acid2 test working for you?

Edited June 10, 2006 by fred666

[hotdog666al]

I use firefox and I have to admit, you are right.

The whole "web-browser" war is SO lame.

[Arkaic]

Performance/Memory: Yes, I agree it sucks. It should improve and I hope it does

The Developers/Fanboys: Yes!!! Lets all slam firefox because of some pain in the arse developers and/or fanboys. Granted some of them suck, but its unfair to judge a product based upon avid users of that products.

Hypocrisy: Go download an older version then. If all you want is minimal. You must realize at some point, besides bug fixes their is nothing they can do. You don't think AOL pays some of these developers to play WoW or something do you?

Extensions: do you understand OSS. These programmers in their free time try to create something for you. Yet you complain.

Focus: Subjective to interpretation as is almost everything. Any other complaints today?

Remember this is still OSS. If you don't like it, no one is forcing you to use it. And quite frankly, your being no better than a fanboy. No need to slam a program you dont like. If you dislike it so incredibly much, why did you waster precious time complaining. Perhaps use another browser?

[Fred Derf Veteran]

I agree with your points. You seem a bit bitter about the WONTFIX stuff but then I've never bothered to submit anything for bug fixing.

What I like about Firefox:

Fairly quick development cycle (I'm testing Minefield/Firefox 3.0 on another box).

Cross-platform (Windows, Linux, Mac and others)

Small footprint + extensions is a good idea (even Minefield with spell checking still is less than a 6MB download)

More secure than some other browsers (in terms of spyware/adware getting installed without your knowledge)

The NoScript extension (which I couldn't live without)

It's free of cost and free of ads

I generally keep my Firefox fairly basic (not too many extensions and a simple theme) but some people have some pretty interesting looks installed.

So basically, I do agree that it has flaws but I use it anyway.

[mercuryx013]

With a title like "Why Firefox Sucks" you are trolling, it doesn't matter if you say you are or not. How about, "Why Firefox isn't for me"?

[xxdesmus]

woohoo ... Just a useful tip when it comes to posting here at Neowin:

Here's an idea, if you don't like it? Then don't use it.

You're no better than the fanboys you dislike ...way to go buddy.

End of story.

[Cyber Dog]

The Developers/Fanboys: Yes!!! Lets all slam firefox because of some pain in the arse developers and/or fanboys. Granted some of them suck, but its unfair to judge a product based upon avid users of that products.

The whole benefit of open source is the emphasis on open. When the developers are as closed minded as those of closed source products, how much do we really benefit?

Hypocrisy: Go download an older version then. If all you want is minimal. You must realize at some point, besides bug fixes their is nothing they can do. You don't think AOL pays some of these developers to play WoW or something do you?

Older versions are no good: clearly not only more bugs, but FF has had scads of security issues. One of the other selling points of firefox is security: hardly something their old versions really offer. And as I said, they have bugs dating back years. They have plenty to keep them busy fixing their own code.

Extensions: do you understand OSS. These programmers in their free time try to create something for you. Yet you complain.

Opera, Maxthon, etc also created these same features for me, and their versions use half the memory and don't mangle nearly as many websites. You call it complaining, I call it criticism of the production model.

Focus: Subjective to interpretation as is almost everything. Any other complaints today?

Remember this is still OSS. If you don't like it, no one is forcing you to use it. And quite frankly, your being no better than a fanboy. No need to slam a program you dont like. If you dislike it so incredibly much, why did you waster precious time complaining. Perhaps use another browser?

A fanboy blindly promotes a product, I'm not promoting anything, and there's certainly more than one alternative in this game. I'm simply putting a counter argument to some of the blind hype out there.

And unless i'm mistaken. You've started a similar thread before. Why waste the time?

Did I? I don't recall it, though I do rant in other threads occasionally. Anyway, this particular set is for my personal site shortly.

With a title like "Why Firefox Sucks" you are trolling, it doesn't matter if you say you are or not. How about, "Why Firefox isn't for me"?

Got your attention though, didn't it? :shiftyninja:

woohoo ... Just a useful tip when it comes to posting here at Neowin:

I'm supposed to search for other people who've read my mind and already posted my thoughts for me? What...? :wacko:

[JustGeorge]

He makes valid points regarding bugs vs. new features. They should put more prority toward bugfixing and leave features for extentions. In their defense, the last update contained some memory leak fixes, didn't it? I'm a FF user BTW.

[Bawx]

Firefox just feels heavy, slow and bulky to me when browsing with it.

Maxthon feels light, thin, crisp and "perky" or.. fast.

That's why I use it. I guess it's a mental thing.

[Arkaic]

How about you assist programming this browser then. Assuming that is you have the skills necessary. Then you can say your helping change the attitude of some developers.

Yes, your right older versions are insecure and perhaps undesirable.

Ok you want maxthon go ahead. If its better for you.

I did not say you were a fanboy. I implied you were annoying like one. Whats the opposite of fanboy? I don't want to use hater but I guess thats it. Okay, stark criticism of their production model. That's fine you have the right to your opinion. Just realize nothing, or nobody is perfect.

Shocked you saw that but yes your right. My apologies you have not started a thread like this before. I thought you had because your original quote looked striking similar to another ranting thread with much of the same points as yours.

And as much as the thread title got the attention of us. It is still trolling.

Regards. Kudos to your calm demeanor and not ranting or acting immature. That is in all seriousness.

[Cyber Dog]

Firefox just feels heavy, slow and bulky to me when browsing with it.

Maxthon feels light, thin, crisp and "perky" or.. fast.

That's why I use it. I guess it's a mental thing.

According to FireFoxMyths.com, it's not just mental. They post links to some test results where FF was one of the internet's slower browsers in many benchmarks. I also get the impression that the use of a cross-platform GUI is causing performance penalties and that sluggish feeling, because I notice it too.

[P!P]

With a title like "Why Firefox Sucks" you are trolling, it doesn't matter if you say you are or not. How about, "Why Firefox isn't for me"?

Agreed, title is very trollish like. I like how most of your points have nothing to do with the product. What do the actions of the the developers have to do with it? What does bug reporting have to do with it? What do fanboys have to do with it? What do THIRD-PARTY extensions have to do with it? What does the "focus" have to do with it? For a topic with the title "Why Firefox Sucks", you don't talk about the product very much.

[Fred Derf Veteran]

[Thread Title Edited]

[nvllsvm]

I use firefox and I have to admit, you are right.

The whole "web-browser" war is SO lame.

Agreed. I think people should whatever they feel like.

[Cyber Dog]

[Thread Title Edited]

Fred has successfully modded my bitterness. :D

I like how most of your points have nothing to do with the product. What do the actions of the the developers have to do with it? What does bug reporting have to do with it? What do fanboys have to do with it? What do THIRD-PARTY extensions have to do with it? What does the "focus" have to do with it? For a topic with the title "Why Firefox Sucks", you don't talk about the product very much.

Are you serious? The entire rant is about the product... The developers produce it, the bugs are bugs in it, the focus is the future of the product, and the 3rd party extensions are what make it competitive. I don't see how you can possibly disassociate those.

[macro]

This is probably a waste of a post, but I see your points, and they make sense, but what's the point in starting a rant about it? I mean if it doesn't work for you then don't use it and that should be the end of it, why does it need to go any further than that?

[P!P]

Fred has successfully modded my bitterness. :D

Are you serious? The entire rant is about the product... The developers produce it, the bugs are bugs in it, the focus is the future of the product, and the 3rd party extensions are what make it competitive. I don't see how you can possibly disassociate those.

Are YOU serious?

"Developers produce it" - Still don't see what the personal actions of the makers have anything to do with it. If one of the Opera devs cheated on his wife, would you stop using it? It doesn't make sense.

"Focus is the future of the product" - Since when you personally care about the future of a product that you are in a no way involved in?

"3rd party extensions are what make it competitive" - Whatever, I'll make a crappy add-on for Photoshop and then start calling Photoshop crappy because add-ons "make it competitive"

[NienorGT]

Well... FF is not that bad...

- Since that I have 2GB RAM :p

- You can remove the "high memory use" feature

- If you don't like the per-user Extention, don't even look at Linux and Open Source software then

- Bug fixes? Beside security, is there some bugs fixed in IE?

Look at the competition, IE is sooo '90ies

IE7 is a copy of FF

Opera is nice, but I don't like the way it work.

I'm not a FF Fanboy, just can't find other stuff to compete it right now...

[EduardValencia]

leave the mate alone,it's his opinion and he can expresss it publicly ,he doesen't like firefoc,end of story

[Dessimat0r]

I use Firefox and admit there are really huge flaws in the development process. They would benefit 500% with a development model similar to Eclipse.

[Cyber Dog]

"Developers produce it" - Still don't see what the personal actions of the makers have anything to do with it. If one of the Opera devs cheated on his wife, would you stop using it? It doesn't make sense.

In a corporate environment there's tech support and developers. The tech support have people skills so the developers don't have to. In the open source world it's generally developers working directly with the users. In this case, if the developers can't communicate effectively with their users, and can't accept constructive criticism of their product, the quality of the product suffers. They can rob banks in their spare time for all I care, but their attitudes on the job are very relevant.

"Focus is the future of the product" - Since when you personally care about the future of a product that you are in a no way involved in?

Make no mistake, prior to version 1.0 I converted entirely to FireFox. I was a user and I promoted it with others. This is a product I want to like! I rant like this because I feel there's so much potential that's just not quite being met.

"3rd party extensions are what make it competitive" - Whatever, I'll make a crappy add-on for Photoshop and then start calling Photoshop crappy because add-ons "make it competitive"

FireFox is a core while Photoshop is one of the most detailed apps you can buy. How man people do you know that run with zero extensions? FireFox's feature set is thus that without at least a few extensions it just doesn't match up to many competitors. This makes them a factor in the overall product.

Yes but he isn't talking about those sorts of things. The actions of the developers and the way they act in an open source environment with users clearly affects the outcome of the product.

Yes! Thank you.

[Arkaic]

In a corporate environment there's tech support and developers. The tech support have people skills so the developers don't have to. In the open source world it's generally developers working directly with the users. In this case, if the developers can't communicate effectively with their users, and can't accept constructive criticism of their product, the quality of the product suffers. They can rob banks in their spare time for all I care, but their attitudes on the job are very relevant.

Just a small team of chief developers are on the job. Again back to OSS. Guess what? Not all of them get paid. Yet you expect professional courtesty. Also a corporate product you pay for. How much does FF cost?

Make no mistake, prior to version 1.0 I converted entirely to FireFox. I was a user and I promoted it with others. This is a product I want to like! I rant like this because I feel there's so much potential that's just not quite being met.

Take an active role in development instead of 'criticizing' then. Otherwise you're being non-productive.

FireFox is a core while Photoshop is one of the most detailed apps you can buy. How man people do you know that run with zero extensions? FireFox's feature set is thus that without at least a few extensions it just doesn't match up to many competitors. This makes them a factor in the overall product.

First you complain of implementation of features. Now you complain they don't match up without extensions? Nvm this one your not happy either way! :no:

Edited June 10, 2006 by Cierro

[Cyber Dog]

Just a small team of chief developers are on the job. Again back to OSS. Guess what. Not all of them get paid. Yet you expect professional courtesty. Also a corporate product you pay for. How much does FF cost?

First of all, the FireFox corporation is not a not-for-profit. They've made a lot of money recently.

And I stand by my statement that the developers' attitudes toward their users affects the product, regardless of whether they're being paid to be nice or whether it's just their nature. I've interacted with developers on lots of projects who don't know me from Adam, and by far and large, they've been very friendly and helpful to strangers such as myself. And they're not making any more than the FF guys are (often less).

Take an active role in development instead of 'criticizing' then. Otherwise you're being non-productive.

To a degree you're correct, however to reiterate my point: I've filed several bugs (not just feature requests). Based on my available time and skill areas, I'm not well cut out to develop FireFox, but I attempted many times to contribute with well organized feedback. This, should be considered "productive." But each time I was either shunned or ignored. This goes back to the user interfacing...

First you complain of implementation of features. Now you complain they don't match up without extensions? Nvm this one your not happy either way! :no:

I admit its a confusing stance to take, but to clarify: I would personally rather FireFox have lots of features (I'm always a sucker for extra features). It was the FireFox team's policy to keep all "features" in extensions (which I feel they are violating more and more often now). So in other words, I want the features, but can only have them via extensions which have poor quality control.

I didn't actually complain about implementing features, I complained that they would make great politicians because they say one thing and do another. They've WONTFIX'd countless third party requests because of their stated feature policy, yet they violate it themselves. It's this seeming hypocrisy that I oppose, not features themselves.

[Arkaic]

Well I would typically respond here, but I'm not.

I'm tired, and going to bed so I can worry about things that bother me more than whether FF is being politically correct or not or w.e the fudge it is now.

So I concede I guess you win here.

All i care about a few other things.

Hopefully w.e browser you choose fits you. goodnite :sleep:

[Cyber Dog]

Well I would typically respond here, but I'm not.

I'm tired, and going to bed so I can worry about things that bother me more than whether FF is being politically correct or not or w.e the fudge it is now.

So I concede I guess you win here.

All i care about a few other things.

Hopefully w.e browser you choose fits you. goodnite :sleep:

Thanks for keeping a civil conversation, gnite.