Microsoft Could Delay Vista in Europe

[betasp]

But isn't the talk about "illegal monopoly" bull****? I can understand that murder or theft is illegal, but should being successful be illegal? Sorry, I just can't see how it's a crime.

By ripping of the average taxpayer for something they might not even agree too!

You don't understand because you understand how to make capitalism work. Again, perhaps you should take a class or something. Also, the EU is protecting the tax payer not ripping them off. Plus, if MS is offering a truly better product, why must they bundle it with the OS? If it is truly better, people will download it themselves...

[John Ericson]

You don't understand because you understand how to make capitalism work. Again, perhaps you should take a class or something.

Please explain to me how it's a crime instead of saying I should take some class. I'll think you'll have a hard time because a common trait of a crime is that there's a victim involved, and secondly the law needs to be applied consistently.

Also, the EU is protecting the tax payer not ripping them off.

Silly! How could you possible know that? Have you asked all the ~400 million European taxpayers? I for sure would like to see my taxmoney going to something more useful then creating Windows XP N versions, and I'm an European, that makes it at least one that's ripped of.

Plus, if MS is offering a truly better product, why must they bundle it with the OS? If it is truly better, people will download it themselves...

Isn't all the major modern OS's today bundled with media apps, web browsers, mail programs. Think OS X, Linux, Windows? I'd say it's what the consumers expect from an OS today. To turn it around: Why must competitors send the State to harass other companies if their products are truly better?

[Fourjays Veteran]

If it is truly better, people will download it themselves...

Same goes for OSXs bundled software. Sorry, but I agree that it is biased. They should apply the same rules to both, whether they are to give them both fines or not - as long as they are treated the same. Why should MS be fined just because they are the richer, more dominant of the two?

How would people feel if everyday criminals were treated in a "who is the richest/biggest/tallest/most well known" fashion? There would be outrage for sure.

[emel]

EU is not protecting the customers.. they are just giving up to the other software companies lobbying groups.. NO customers are protesting because windows come with WMP or IE.. If this continues, in few years EU will just end up as corrupt as US congress and senate..

[strekship]

I don't know about anyone else, but when i get an OS i expect it to have a web browser and a media player. I don't sue IE, but i do use it on first installs to download firefox, drivers, and things like that. WMP is also nice to have around, even though i use winamp most of the time. MS didn't stop me from downloading FF and winamp, so i don't see the problem. Besides, if they removed ie, how you you download alternative browsers? Run>CMD>ftp?

Edited September 9, 2006 by strekship

[Mathiasdm]

What is the issue here anyway?

Before it was IE - however you are not FORCED to use IE in windows. Anyone doing a spot of research would realise that there are better browsers (Opera / Firefox) to use.

Same with their media players - so the issue really isnt that microsoft forces you to use their products. I think the issue is more that the EU want to flex their muscles a bit; MS is an easy target recently and so they've picked on them.

jordanspringer makes a good point: why does nobody attack Apple for forcing people to use their branded software? Oh right, I forgot - Apple can do no wrong.

I'm sure that's why Apple is in trouble with their Music Store, right?

Please explain to me how it's a crime instead of saying I should take some class. I'll think you'll have a hard time because a common trait of a crime is that there's a victim involved, and secondly the law needs to be applied consistently.

Silly! How could you possible know that? Have you asked all the ~400 million European taxpayers? I for sure would like to see my taxmoney going to something more useful then creating Windows XP N versions, and I'm an European, that makes it at least one that's ripped of.

Isn't all the major modern OS's today bundled with media apps, web browsers, mail programs. Think OS X, Linux, Windows? I'd say it's what the consumers expect from an OS today. To turn it around: Why must competitors send the State to harass other companies if their products are truly better?

The victim is the consumer. Look it up at wikipedia on the 'monopoly' page.

Monopolies are bad for the market.

[markwolfe Veteran]

Besides, if they removed ie, how you you download alternative browsers? Run>CMD>ftp?

This old argument again?

Alternatives would be supplied by the Dells, HPs and other OEM suppliers. It would be pre-installed for the customer. That was the point of the whoe "N" version failure.

[CaKeY]

they are just giving up to the other software companies lobbying groups..

Oh yeah that makes alot of sense. :rolleyes:

[John Ericson]

The victim is the consumer. Look it up at wikipedia on the 'monopoly' page.

Monopolies are bad for the market.

Not all monopolies are bad for the market! Surely you don't think the existence of a monopoly of law, a.k.a the state, is a bad thing, do you?

A monopoly established through voluntary means is a legal monopoly. Using the terms used on the wiki page I would say that Microsoft is partly an efficient monopoly and a natural monopoly. Microsoft has historically been better at providing consumers what they want, thus more efficient; and consumers doesn't want a lot of different incompatible OS's, therefore the natural monopoly.

Harassing such a monopoly only hurts the consumers and the taxpayers (please someone stand up for the taxpayer!). Most often the worst kinds of monopolies are the ones granted by the state, such as telecommunications. A good monopoly is one that is granted by the consumers.

[John Ericson]

they are just giving up to the other software companies lobbying groups..

Oh yeah that makes alot of sense. :rolleyes:

Ok? :rolleyes:

A typical trait of argumentation is that people responds to each other with arguments. It's a bit harder then just saying "you're stupid!" or "you're wrong!" but I'm sure you can do it!

Now go a head and try to respond with an argument!

[CaKeY]

Oh yeah that makes alot of sense. :rolleyes:

Ok? :rolleyes:

A typical trait of argumentation is that people responds to each other with arguments. It's a bit harder then just saying "you're stupid!" or "you're wrong!" but I'm sure you can do it!

Now go a head and try to respond with an argument!

Ok....

I think it IS stupid to think that any company or group of companies can out-lobby microsoft. What could ANY corporation possibly offer a politician that microsoft couldnt offer 100 times over? :rolleyes:

[strekship]

This old argument again?

Alternatives would be supplied by the Dells, HPs and other OEM suppliers. It would be pre-installed for the customer. That was the point of the whoe "N" version failure.

Ah, ok. I didn't think about that. What about the retail versions? Would you have them come installed with every popular browser, like some linux distros? Maybe a soulution would be to have IE still there, but on first boot have it take you to a page with a list of alterante browsers.

[John Ericson]

Ok....

I think it IS stupid to think that any company or group of companies can out-lobby microsoft. What could ANY corporation possibly offer a politician that microsoft couldnt offer 100 times over? :rolleyes:

Thank you! Good point! But I think there is more to lobbying then the amount of money or time you spend on it. I guess you talk about something measurable like that since you say "100 times over". Lobbying is basically a process of convincing someone and convincing is about more then just who spends the most money or time.

I would say that MS's current badwill (which they deserve to a large part) among many is a contributing factor for the politicians actions. It's simply good populism and a sure way of getting some more money.

[Banzai]

GOD the eu really sucks anti competitive behavior right so in Europe we will be paying the same price as the rest of the world for the same product but with half the features cut out. NOT HAPPY. I fully support Microsoft with this one

[PL_ Veteran]

Why don't the EU actually bother to educate people on the alternatives?

A leaflet goes a long way.

[Brian M. Veteran]

Ermm... Can i just say this:

Who didnt honestly expect this?

oh, and: M$ W45 PWN3D BY 73H 3U!!!!!111!1!11 :p

[MGS4-SS]

GO EU!

[Fourjays Veteran]

Why don't the EU actually bother to educate people on the alternatives?

A leaflet goes a long way.

Something else I often think. It might help these other companies if they actually advertise. People aren't going to use alternatives if they don't know they exist. Despite that, Winamp, RealPlayer, Quicktime and so forth are all surviving fine despite the fact that WMP is included with Windows and they don't advertise, so it can't be causing that much of a problem to them.

Despite that, whatever the EU does, it must always be done fairly and equally - which it isn't.

[viciv]

ppl will get quicktime/real player if they want to play .mov/.rm files.. so what's the big deal?

[nekrosoft13]

EU is bunch of ****ing morons

like few people mentioned, when MS adds new features, everyone is going ape **** about it.

when Apple adds new stuff, people are happy.

when apple keeps making all those dumb commericals, all the idiots that don't know the truth see them.

both companies should be threated the same way

[MasterC]

This is so stupid. Why doesn't the EU sue Apple for forcing the users to use their interface?!? You know, there are alternatives, like Rockbox, iPod Linux, etc. If the EU is going to sue someone for their monopoly or whatever the heck their problem is, at least be consistent. They are acting so freaking immature, it disgusts me. (And this is coming from an Mac user, just fyi.)

[Arkaic]

Actually, I hope they delay it worldwide by about 3 months. :yes:

That way RTM will actually be Stable/Gold quality. :yes: :)