Mac OS X 'Leopard'-related Discussion

[Quillz]

Boot Camp in Leopard apparently doesn't require a you to burn a drivers CD. But how does this work exactly?

It probably embeds the appropriate driver data into the Windows partition you're creating.

[Koyder]

I remember Steve saying the Windows drivers will be on the Leopard install disc.

[Southern Patriot]

You could always modify the volume bezel images if you like anyway, they are just PNG files located in /System/Library/LoginPlugins/BezelServices.loginPlugin/Contents/Resources/BezelUI/Images . Have fun.

[The.Clinton]

So if they are embedded on the Leopard disk, what happens when they release updates? I think them creating a separate partition would be better, with read-only access inside windows.

[Chicane-UK Veteran]

I would assume they'd do it like a Windows Unattended install.. the current version of the drivers live locally on the Leopard partition. When you tell it you want to install a Windows partition it builds up an unattended installation file and moves over the current version of the drivers (kept up to date through Software Update), as well as the actual Windows files from the CD, and then on reboot just slipstreams them into the install and off you go....

[fukachu]

im really hoping someone makes a nice haxie (sp?) to fix the dock. on my macbook there is no way i would want the dock on the bottom, just not enough screen real estate and from previous screens it looks aweful on the side. give me the 2d one please! maybe im strange but i love the current volume bevel, it is certainly my preference.

[.Neo]

From what I understand the Boot Camp drivers are on the Mac OS X Leopard Install DVD.

[DrunkenMaster]

im really hoping someone makes a nice haxie (sp?) to fix the dock. on my macbook there is no way i would want the dock on the bottom, just not enough screen real estate and from previous screens it looks aweful on the side. give me the 2d one please! maybe im strange but i love the current volume bevel, it is certainly my preference.

You can switch to the side of the screen with a normal dock. It doesn't take much screen real-estate that way.

[crazzyyfool]

im really hoping someone makes a nice haxie (sp?) to fix the dock. on my macbook there is no way i would want the dock on the bottom, just not enough screen real estate and from previous screens it looks aweful on the side. give me the 2d one please! maybe im strange but i love the current volume bevel, it is certainly my preference.

You could just set the Dock to auto-hide on the bottom?

[.Neo]

The new Dock is only slightly larger than the current Dock. Next to that you can scale it all the way down to 16x16 pixels per icon.

[Quillz]

The new Dock is only slightly larger than the current Dock. Next to that you can scale it all the way down to 16x16 pixels per icon.

Actually, it's the exact same size as the Tiger dock, but the tilted angle creates the illusion that it's larger than it really is.

[.Neo]

Actually, it's the exact same size as the Tiger dock, but the tilted angle creates the illusion that it's larger than it really is.

The last time I tried the Mac OS X Leopard Dock was slightly larger in hight than the Tiger one when setting the icons on both at 48x48 pixels. The icons stick out more.

[hotdog666al]

I'm pretty much heartbroken about the way the UI in leopard is looking at the moment, I really don't like it.

I don't doubt it'll grow on me though.

[Garry]

So this is my dock. I like it but the 'currently running' dots are useless! I have my dock on autohide, so it often pops up in front of other windows. Who can tell, at a glance, what it currently running?

[.Neo]

Finder, Mail, Safari, Grab, Remote Desktop Client and some other apps I don't know.

This is the first time I noticed that the Dock shadows actually appear on window as well. That's kinda cool! Aside from if it's actually useful or not, I think it's pretty amazing what they can do nowadays in a live GUI environment.

[Vice]

They really need to fix the perspective and drop shadows on the Dock Icons. They just look pathetically bad.

They have really presented themselves with a problem. How do you make an icon with a perspective for the 3D Dock without making the icons look stupid in 2D window space (Finder folder surfing views). The only way I can think of is to package 2 icons for the same thing in the application folder but this just increases the amount of work we developers have to do to get things looking nice. To say I'm a little angry would be an accurate description. Everything I've seen in Leopard so far is like a 50/50.

On the one hand I want to keep making universal software that works on Windows and Mac OS X.

Some apps I'd rather develop just for the Mac to take advantage of Core Image and Core Animation or for the 64-bit compatibility.

But then on the other hand they do stuff like this dock thing which just annoys me. Also I have to wonder if you make a great app for OS X Apple will just bundle it in there next OS and run you out of business or buy your product off you if your lucky. (aka, Konfabulator, Quicksilver, VirtueDestkops, Cover Flow).

I'll have to end up upgrading to Leopard eventually just because I already know of other developers that are throwing down backwards compatibility to use the new Frameworks provided by Leopard, some of which I named above. To continue to use the Software I love and use I need to buy in to something that I think personally looks like a Glass Green-House.

I mean seriously did they just sit around a table and go "Hey you know what people like? Glass. Let's give them a transparent menu-bar a mirror-dock and some reflective icons via Cover Flow, oh and make sure to include lots of grassy wallpapers because everyone loves those!"

When Steve stood up on the WWDC Stage and actually unveiled what the new Leopard desktop looked like everyone in the room laughed, they thought he was mocking Vista!. After all the rubbish that has been said against Microsoft by Steve on stage and how they rip off Apple interfaces and saying they ripped off Aqua with Aero, Apple turn around and basically take the Glass of Vista and just stick it in to Leopard. I know I'm going on a bit of a Rant here but do they expect to get away with the comments they make. Leopard isn't even out yet and I'm already hoping the next version is better.

[.Neo]

But then on the other hand they do stuff like this dock thing which just annoys me. Also I have to wonder if you make a great app for OS X Apple will just bundle it in there next OS and run you out of business or buy your product off you if your lucky. (aka, Konfabulator, Quicksilver, VirtueDestkops, Cover Flow).

Konfabulator: Not an original concept to begin with.

Quicksilver: So far there isn't anything in Mac OS X that has the same package of features as Quicksilver offers. I have no idea whatsoever why you would blame Apple for introducing indexed searching system-wide. The concept existed for ages and Apple worked on it since development of the initial Mac OS X version began.

VirtueDesktops: Again, not an original concept to begin with. And it always been a very buggy application which progressed very slowly over the years.

Cover Flow: Apple bought the rights of the original developers. I can't imagine a bigger honor for a few small developers to have their idea implemented in the most popular media player and portable media player and second most popular operating system.

If Apple has to worry about existing 3rd party solutions for certain tasks, regardless of their quality (VirtueDesktops being a good example), Mac OS X will end up as a very empty OS.

Edited September 24, 2007 by .Neo

[osirisX]

If the Dock didn't create a reflection for the icons, then old icons would look perfectly fine. The three prime examples being:

Transmit

Keynote

Trash

These all look fine on the 3D Dock until that reflection is added.

[andrew_f]

Is it possible to make the dock 2d again - not a fan of the 3d look...

[.Neo]

Is it possible to make the dock 2d again - not a fan of the 3d look...

It would probably be hard to surpress the effects the Dock generates. For example: So far I haven't seen any custom minimization effects for Mac OS X, changing these new effects would probably be something similar.

[Vice]

Konfabulator: Not an original concept to begin with.

Quicksilver: So far there isn't anything in Mac OS X that has the same package of features as Quicksilver offers. I have no idea whatsoever why you would blame Apple for introducing indexed searching system-wide. The concept existed for ages and Apple worked on it since development of the initial Mac OS X version began.

VirtueDesktops: Again, not an original concept to begin with. And it always been a very buggy application which progressed very slowly over the years.

Cover Flow: Apple bought the rights of the original developers. I can't imagine a bigger honor for a few small developers to have their idea implemented in the most popular media player and portable media player and second most popular operating system.

If Apple has to worry about existing 3rd party solutions for certain tasks, regardless of their quality (VirtueDesktops being a good example), Mac OS X will end up as a very empty OS.

Thats all very nice Neo but your only just picking out a small part of my Post. One of the smallest issues that I only dedicated a small sentence to. And to be honest I don't agree with what your saying there.

Konfabulator may not have been a new concept but Apple took what Konfabulator had done (Web application standards for creating widgets) and took it to Dashboard. The execution is exactly the same. Apple could have dedicated a small footprint C in xcode for it but instead they went to XML, HTML and Java just like Konfab.

Quicksilver - spotlight now launches applications in just the same way that Quicksilver did, its a direct rip. Quicksilver: CMD + X type some text, hit enter, and it launches the application. Spotlight in Leopard: CMD + Space, type some text, hit enter, it launches the application. It's exactly the same. Sure it lacks some of the "extra" stuff that Quicksilver has, but that functionality was never used by me. I call it as I see it and even the Quicksilver developer is not dead chuffed at what Apple has done.

Virtue Desktops wasn't a new concept no, but like the other projects was free and brought the multiple desktop concept from other UNIX operating systems to Mac OS X with a very nice GUI. I never found it buggy it always worked flawlessly for me. Maybe it just didn't like your iMac G3. It worked great on my PowerBook G4 (even with Light Sensor and ALU desktop switching). The developer of it has even thrown in the towel because as he puts it "Who would use Virtue Desktops when Spaces is already on Leopard by default?" Isn't that the same argument we have heard before? Why should a Windows user go and get Linux when they have already been forced in to purchasing Windows with there PC.

Coverflow perhaps the only one which really shows that Apple are not completely heartless. Instead of just ripping it off they decided to employee the guy that made it. Yeah I'm happy for him but what about the other developers? I guess it's much easier to rip off the other stuff, especially Virtue Desktops when the display framework is locked down and no one but Apple can access it to draw the desktop interface. Nice one Applesoft.

I'm not impressed. Not impressed at all.

[.Neo]

Thats all very nice Neo but your only just picking out a small part of my Post. One of the smallest issues that I only dedicated a small sentence to. And to be honest I don't agree with what your saying there.

I don't have anything to say about the rest of your post. If you think Leopard "is stupid" there is little I can do about that.

Konfabulator may not have been a new concept but Apple took what Konfabulator had done (Web application standards for creating widgets) and took it to Dashboard. The execution is exactly the same. Apple could have dedicated a small footprint C in xcode for it but instead they went to XML, HTML and Java just like Konfab.

Before Konfabulator other companies like Microsoft showed off basically the same stuff in technical demos. Even before that Apple had a very similar concepts of mini applications since the 80s. Overal it was nothing new. The Konfabulator vs Dashboard vs Sidebar vs the big bad world has been debated to death. Maybe you can find some of them on this forum for more information.

I'll give you that Konfabulator made the whole idea "fresh" again. Before them nobody I can think of really made modern looking widgets to match today's OS capabilities.

Quicksilver - spotlight now launches applications in just the same way that Quicksilver did, its a direct rip. Quicksilver: CMD + X type some text, hit enter, and it launches the application. Spotlight in Leopard: CMD + Space, type some text, hit enter, it launches the application. It's exactly the same. Sure it lacks some of the "extra" stuff that Quicksilver has, but that functionality was never used by me. I call it as I see it and even the Quicksilver developer is not dead chuffed at what Apple has done.

From an end-user perspective most search features work the same way: The user brings up a text box to insert certain criteria and results pop-up. You can either double click a result or hit enter or cmd + O to open it. Quicksilver didn't introduce this.

Spotlight isn't developed just for opening applications and nor is Quicksilver. The oversimplification you're applying to both amazes me. On top of that indexed searching has been around long before Quicksilver was released. iTunes for example used the same way to instantly show search results within your Library.

Virtue Desktops wasn't a new concept no, but like the other projects was free and brought the multiple desktop concept from other UNIX operating systems to Mac OS X with a very nice GUI. I never found it buggy it always worked flawlessly for me. Maybe it just didn't like your iMac G3. It worked great on my PowerBook G4 (even with Light Sensor and ALU desktop switching). The developer of it has even thrown in the towel because as he puts it "Who would use Virtue Desktops when Spaces is already on Leopard by default?" Isn't that the same argument we have heard before? Why should a Windows user go and get Linux when they have already been forced in to purchasing Windows with there PC.

iMac G3? Try eMac G4 and a latest 24" Core 2 Duo iMac.

There are tons of users experiencing all kinds of issues as seen on the forums and overal the rate of development always been very slow.

Coverflow perhaps the only one which really shows that Apple are not completely heartless. Instead of just ripping it off they decided to employee the guy that made it. Yeah I'm happy for him but what about the other developers? I guess it's much easier to rip off the other stuff, especially Virtue Desktops when the display framework is locked down and no one but Apple can access it to draw the desktop interface. Nice one Applesoft.

Does Core Image and Core Animation ring a bell? Apple not only made access to those frameworks available to any 3rd developer who want to utilize it for advanced animations, they also give them a powerful set of developer tools (at no additional costs) to make coding as easy as it possibly could be. The whole point behind these technologies is to enhance the interfaces of 3rd party applications.

Next to that Apple has every right to limit access to certain critical system parts to insure that applications won't compromise the stability of the OS. Applications like VirtueDesktops and ShapeShifter have the potential to interfere with normal system behaviour by pushing the frameworks beyond their normal boundaries. Obviously Apple won't support this.

Edited September 25, 2007 by .Neo

[Quillz]

Virtue Desktops was based on the idea of virtual desktops, was it not? That has been around in Unix and even Windows for decades. It's really nothing new, and by extension, neither is Spaces.

[.Neo]

double post.

[Vice]

I don't have anything to say about the rest of your post. If you think Leopard "is stupid" there is little I can do about that.

Before Konfabulator other companies like Microsoft showed off basically the same stuff in technical demos. Even before that Apple had a very similar concepts of mini applications since the 80s. Overal it was nothing new. The Konfabulator vs Dashboard vs Sidebar vs the big bad world has been debated to death. Maybe you can find some of them on this forum for more information.

I'll give you that Konfabulator made the whole idea "fresh" again. Before them nobody I can think of really made modern looking widgets to match today's OS capabilities.

From an end-user perspective most search features work the same way: The user brings up a text box to insert certain criteria and results pop-up. You can either double click a result or hit enter or cmd + O to open it. Quicksilver didn't introduce this.

Spotlight isn't developed just for opening applications and nor is Quicksilver. The oversimplification you're applying to both amazes me. On top of that indexed searching has been around long before Quicksilver was released. iTunes for example used the same way to instantly show search results within your Library.

iMac G3? Try eMac G4 and a latest 24" Core 2 Duo iMac.

There are tons of users experiencing all kinds of issues as seen on the forums and overal the rate of development always been very slow.

Does Core Image and Core Animation ring a bell? Apple not only made access to those frameworks available to any 3rd developer who want to utilize it for advanced animations, they also give them a powerful set of developer tools (at no additional costs) to make coding as easy as it possibly could be. The whole point behind these technologies is to enhance the interfaces of 3rd party applications.

Next to that Apple has every right to limit access to certain critical system parts to insure that applications won't compromise the stability of the OS. Applications like VirtueDesktops and ShapeShifter have the potential to interfere with normal system behaviour by pushing the frameworks beyond their normal boundaries. Obviously Apple won't support this.

For the record Virtue Desktops worked fine on my iBook G4, my PowerBook G4 and my MacBook Pro 17" It even worked fine on my Hackintosh. Maybe you were configuring it incorrectly. A lot of Mac users get it a bit wrong if there not used to a more advanced environment like those presented by most Linux Distributions.

Seriously, whatever you want to think on this is totally up to you but I am unimpressed with Leopard and all its brand new shiny features that are just rip offs of what we already had. Sure if the products they ripped off costed money I wouldn't mind so much, but when your just ripping free and sometimes open source software its like why bother wasting your time on something everyone already has and get working on somthing that is acually compelling. Quicklooks is one of the great features of leopard. I fail to see the value in a 3D space machine for backing up my files however.

Also about Apple locking down stuff in the OS. It's my opinion that they shouldn't be locking down anything. Anything in the OS can be used incorrectly to create an unstable environment if your going to sell me Milk let me see the Cow it came from.

Edited September 25, 2007 by Vice