Seagate CEO: Blu-ray won the battle but lost the war


Recommended Posts

Hard drives are still not as reliable as optical media. It would suck to download 20 HD movies onto your hard drive from online retailers to have that hard drive go bad and have to download all that again.

Where? From what I can tell this is you completely changing directions since HD DVD is on the way out.

For every "internet distribution = good point" you made you've made 1000 HD DVD is t3h b3s7 evar posts.

Look for it. I've always said that optical media and GIGABYTES for the advantage of Blu-Ray in space is completely irrelevant as we will see new effective storage media like hard drives and other USB devices, that are much faster, rewritable and hold A LOT more storage while costing less.

Optical media only had purpose with movies, but that it would eventually be replaced by digital distribution.

Of course, people that support Blu-ray simply have no desire to look things that are relevant to the overall picture of things. You only see things that echo positive perspective for Blu-Ray.

I understand that, but quit telling me what is possible and start telling me whether or not consumers want it.

And why do you think they won't want it?

Here, take a look at Netflix vs Blockbuster. Netflix soared past Blockbuster with online service despite the fact that Blockbuster had a store in every neighborhood.

People were and still are to wait a day or TWO to get the movie, just so they don't have to get out of the couch and they get to watch unlimited movies for a fixed price.

With Netflix on-demand online movies, the situation is aready getting there for renting.

People will eat this up, only so far we really didn't have the infrastructure to do it so we can watch HD content.

If you notice, iTunes and their shows is making HUGE amounts of money and they continue increasing the quality of movies and shows you download. It was so successful it warranted Apple creating an Apple TV device for it. The device is being sold like hotcakes too at $300+ a pop.

Tell me, why do you think that XStreamHD technology at $399 that allows you unlimited HD movies you can buy, rent 24 hours a day at any moment? Imagine this, 4x 2TB Seagate harddrives in drive bays of the XStreamHD media center where you store all your movies you downloaded. The best part, when they are digital, you can actually back them up to another HDD and make sure that you have a safe copy. With Blu-Ray for example, if the disc gets damaged, you have to go and buy another copy of it. It is true that if your hard drive goes, everything goes so you tend to lose more, but if they offer downloads tracking like many stock photo or even itunes offer, you can redownload the movies you bought the license for again from the service. All in all, much more flexibility for the consumer.

Add to this the ability to watch the movies you downloaded on any device in your house like PS3, HD DVD player, computer, PSP etc makes it even more appealing.

Yeah, if these guys come out with affordable monthly fees and get the recievers at <$300 over time, they'll replace these pay-per-view services.

Look for it. I've always said that optical media and GIGABYTES for the advantage of Blu-Ray in space is completely irrelevant as we will see new effective storage media like hard drives and other USB devices, that are much faster, rewritable and hold A LOT more storage while costing less.

Optical media only had purpose with movies, but that it would eventually be replaced by digital distribution.

Of course, people that support Blu-ray simply have no desire to look things that are relevant to the overall picture of things. You only see things that echo positive perspective for Blu-Ray.

I bet that if HDDVD was the one on top, you wouldn't be saying those comments.

Where? From what I can tell this is you completely changing directions since HD DVD is on the way out.

For every "internet distribution = good point" you made you've made 1000 HD DVD is t3h b3s7 evar posts.

+1

Never heard of xstreamhd before Warner went Blu :rolleyes:

And why do you think they won't want it?

Here, take a look at Netflix vs Blockbuster. Netflix soared past Blockbuster with online service despite the fact that Blockbuster had a store in every neighborhood.

People were and still are to wait a day or TWO to get the movie, just so they don't have to get out of the couch and they get to watch unlimited movies for a fixed price.

With Netflix on-demand online movies, the situation is aready getting there for renting.

People will eat this up, only so far we really didn't have the infrastructure to do it so we can watch HD content.

If you notice, iTunes and their shows is making HUGE amounts of money and they continue increasing the quality of movies and shows you download. It was so successful it warranted Apple creating an Apple TV device for it. The device is being sold like hotcakes too at $300+ a pop.

Tell me, why do you think that XStreamHD technology at $399 that allows you unlimited HD movies you can buy, rent 24 hours a day at any moment? Imagine this Seagate harddrives in drive bays of the XStreamHD media center where you store all your movies you downloaded.

Add to this the ability to watch the movies you downloaded on any device in your house like PS3, HD DVD player, computer, PSP etc makes it even more appealing.

Yeah, if these guys come out with affordable monthly fees and get the recievers at <$300 over time, they'll replace these pay-per-view services.

How many people have used this whole "on-demand" stuff? Why are satellite companies not making an absolute killing on pay-per-view movies compared to rental stores and services like Netflix and Blockbuster? Consumers have already spoken with their actions. They don't want these kind of services because they're not buying them.

Don't confuse Netflix's mail service with this. It's not even remotely the same.

XStreamHD has a neat idea, but I don't think people will buy it. How about all the customers that don't have broadband internet -- what are they supposed to use? What about people who have download limits imposed by their ISPs -- what are they supposed to do? How about people that want a physical indication that they own something -- what are they supposed to do? How about people who don't want to spend $400 on an appliance to download and play movies when they can spend less on an appliance that plays movies -- what are they supposed to do?

+1

Never heard of xstreamhd before Warner went Blu :rolleyes:

As much as I vehemently disagree with Boz's stance, he has been saying downloads are the future for a while now. You two need to stop trying to incite problems.

XStreamHD has a neat idea, but I don't think people will buy it. How about all the customers that don't have broadband internet -- what are they supposed to use? What about people who have download limits imposed by their ISPs -- what are they supposed to do? How about people that want a physical indication that they own something -- what are they supposed to do? How about people who don't want to spend $400 on an appliance to download and play movies when they can spend less on an appliance that plays movies -- what are they supposed to do?

they are supposed to buy Blu-Ray. :p

As much as I vehemently disagree with Boz's stance, he has been saying downloads are the future for a while now. You two need to stop trying to incite problems.

Do you think he would have mentioned xstreamhd if Warner had gone hd dvd? I doubt it.

But I guess he will tell me otherwise :laugh:

Do you think he would have mentioned xstreamhd if Warner had gone hd dvd? I doubt it.

But I guess he will tell me otherwise :laugh:

I do. But you're obviously to blind with joy in the fact that you can rub the Warner Blu-Ray situation in his face for a while before it gets old (or gets you warned) to comprehend that.

stevan: That's my point. :)

How many people have used this whole "on-demand" stuff? Why are satellite companies not making an absolute killing on pay-per-view movies compared to rental stores and services like Netflix and Blockbuster? Consumers have already spoken with their actions. They don't want these kind of services because they're not buying them.

Don't confuse Netflix's mail service with this. It's not even remotely the same.

XStreamHD has a neat idea, but I don't think people will buy it. How about all the customers that don't have broadband internet -- what are they supposed to use? What about people who have download limits imposed by their ISPs -- what are they supposed to do? How about people that want a physical indication that they own something -- what are they supposed to do? How about people who don't want to spend $400 on an appliance to download and play movies when they can spend less on an appliance that plays movies -- what are they supposed to do?

On Demand stuff is not the same as what we are talking about here. Btw, Pay-Per-View is doing just fine it's mass adopted everywhere. People do pay them, but it's the limited choices of movies and high price per movie that has somewhat a limiting factor. Their infrastructure didn't allow proper support to consumers.

And you are right, I was never a big fan of pay-per-view as I don't actually own the movie. I'd like something like iTunes that will offer me to buy and create a digital libarary of movies in my home as opposed to paying $5-$6-$10 per movies every time I want to watch it. This business model is what has kept digital distribution from igniting.

Netflix service is the same as this in a way because you are using alternate means of getting movies. You don't own them, you have your account online and your order movies online. The only thing is that you get them to your house via mail.

Now replace this type of service with digital one. Where there's no need to wait at all. You do the same thing and start watching the movie right away. This is the reason why Netflix is opening their own ONLINE viewing module.

The problem with this though is that it will work only for SD for now if they rely on cable connection. At least not until next year when we can expect to have 40-50mbps connections as standard. In the meantime, satellite/XSteamHD type of service relies on satellite. The best idea that combines the effectiveness of Netflix approach with the ability to actually own movies as you can download them, but with no bandwith restrictions.

Again, for xStreamHD you don't need internet. It's satellite. Satellite dish and setting up is cheap today and millions and millions of people already has the infrastructure for it, courtesty of DirectTV.

Honestly, this is no different then Blu-Ray players now. If one defends that it's ok to pay $300-$400 for Blu-Ray player, I can't say that xStreamHD for $399 will be a horrible thing. Of course, it will start with early adopters first, but the beauty of mass adoption is that as more people sign up, they'll make it more appealing. There's no doubt, just like any Blu-Ray player or HD DVD player would drop in price. Don't forget, for companies like XstreamHD the main source of revenue will be monthly subscription, not the device itself.

And XStreamHD in question here, offers 3 models, you can BUY and OWN the movie (in digital form of course) and watch it ANYWHERE, renting it and I believe that you'll even have movies in theaters available through their system.

I think that in Q4 2008, I'll be getting one without a doubt. They will probably face slower adoption with studios, but it will come when they give them good money possibilities. Don't forget all these studios are horny about digital too as it allows them multiple sales of the same item for overall higher price. There's a reason why iTunes is no. 1 service.

The only reason Universal walked from them is because they wouldn't raise the price on some movies. If they did, they wouldn't have problems. But in essence it shows how much everyone likes digital. Just look at Xbox Live too.

This model is the future and is closer then we all thought.

Yes we'll all be downloading our movies eventually, but that's not in this war. By the time downloading movies becomes feasible for the majority, Blu-Ray will already have many years as the top format for buying movies in.

Common you guys, direct Tv has HD on demand movies and events that download off the internet while watching satellite Tv, gets recorded on direct Tv HD DVRS, all direct tv customers can do that. All the new direct dvr receivers since last year have an internet connection, and you can also play music and photos from your networked computers. I have my dvr full of stuff for my children, and PPV events and PPv movies that I missed.

I can record all of that to dvdrw if I want to.

I do. But you're obviously to blind with joy in the fact that you can rub the Warner Blu-Ray situation in his face for a while before it gets old (or gets you warned) to comprehend that.

stevan: That's my point. :)

I dont.

I am not rubbing anything in anyones face. My opinion is that this xtreamhd talk would have never started if things were looking good for HD DVD (as in Warner going exclusive with them).

Getting warned for speaking my mind? :laugh:

I dont.

I am not rubbing anything in anyones face. My opinion is that this xtreamhd talk would have never started if things were looking good for HD DVD (as in Warner going exclusive with them).

Getting warned for speaking my mind? :laugh:

Given that he's stated he expects online services to do well in the past, I disagree completely. Also because XStreamHD had a big presence at CES (at least in the technology community), I disagree again.

And, no, I don't think anyone should get warned for speaking their mind. I think the people who are flame baiting Boz should be warned.

@ Boz: Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree and see which format is widely adopted in the future... although it may be a few years.

And why do you think they won't want it?

Simple. Costs.

Companies can announce outrageous speed offerings for upload and downloading, but overall I have yet to see a "decent" price point for high speed. In my neck of the woods 25 dollars covers 1.5mb download and 340k upload. There is no way in hell that this download offerings are going to take off when the customer is already crippled with the packages being offered.

If the pricing scheme changes, then I don't for see a problem. According to the teleco folks I've been talking about, the infrastructure in the US is there, however the licensing and other political kinks would still need to be worked on.

HD Streaming is coming... that's a given. Nobody should even question that. We've already seen it through SD On Demand. But it's not now... and it's not even ready for the wide scale yet. The current high definition leader is now clearly Blu-ray and will continue to be until the XStream (or whatever comes out on top) is complete.

Dogan has a point however. While it is a cool and upcoming technology, it probably wouldn't have been touted as much had HD-DVD not been given dropkick it received. :laugh:

until ISP's get off their ass, upgrade their systems, remove caps and stop overselling themselves then internet based HD video has a future. I'd rather spend ?20 on a BD with a good selection of audio options, extras and the ability to copy to my psp, rather than a <50Gb download.

You people fail to see that (in US alone) broadband speeds by 2009 have been announced to be between 50-100 mbps. Satellite services like xStreadHD have proven quite possible delivering 80mbps streams that can carry full 1080p / 7.1 DTS-MA HD streams and allow you do download them to your hard drives and watch them on any DLNA device in your home (PS3, HD DVD player, computer etc)

As much as it wishes it could the US doesn't control the world and the rest of the world won't have 50-100 mbps internet connections. For about another 25 years so that this will not take off for a long time to come and it will be for the next evolution of video resolution not the 1080 that we have now.

Here in the UK for the standard of broadband is about 8 mbps and this is only achievable for the people that like within less than 1 mile of the telephone exchange after that the speed drops off extremely fast.

ADSL2+ is also many years off here and that can only achieve 24 mbps speeds.

There are still large amounts of people in the UK that can only use a 56 kbps modem to get online.

until ISP's get off their ass, upgrade their systems, remove caps and stop overselling themselves then internet based HD video has a future. I'd rather spend ?20 on a BD with a good selection of audio options, extras and the ability to copy to my psp, rather than a <50Gb download.

And yes good point gonna download a 30GB movie on your limited bandwidth of about 20GB per month.

Finish it off next month.

Edited by atkinsn2000
Dogan has a point however. While it is a cool and upcoming technology, it probably wouldn't have been touted as much had HD-DVD not been given dropkick it received. :laugh:

I doubt it. These techs and services have been in the works for a while now: MS's IPTV?

I honestly think it was a timed release for CES and with little relation to HD-DVDs facially received "dropkick". To each their own.

However I'll add a bit that I doubt has been mentioned but I've thought about before. HD as a whole will probably never take off in the manner many people think it will. As it stands we live in a mobile society where mp3's and iPods rule the day. Not full 1080p 60fps @ 120hz or 96/24 bit and 192/24 bit Hi-fi audio sources; not to mention this stuff takes up a lot of space.

If they did DVDA and SACD would have taken off years ago amongst everyday Americans who in turn decided mp3's were much more practical and Apple in a stroke of genius marketed on what the market was desiring, an iPod.

As much as it wishes it could the US doesn't control the world and the rest of the world won't have 50-100 mbps internet connections. For about another 25 years so that this will not take off for a long time to come and it will be for the next evolution of video resolution not the 1080 that we have now.

I think you have researched information very poorly.

USA is number 18 or so on the list of broadband speeds in various countries. So it's hardly leading. Meaning that other countries in Europe and Asia have much faster connections even now, going over 100mbps in japan I think.

If you think that digital distribution is 25 years away I think you are in for a HUGE surprise. It's already HERE, it just doesn't do HD. Xbox Live with over 10 million users offers TV shows and movies in 720p now. I don't hear people complaining or not downloading. It's obviously very popular.

XStreamHD like technologies offer smart approaches. The only mistake they can make is create an unfriendly digital management of the assets you download, nothing more and of course very expensive monthly subscription. I think, juding by their intentions this will not happen. They are on a very positive path to have a kick ass HD service for everyone.

Links:

http://www.internetinnovation.org/tabid/56.../7/Default.aspx

Japan had 100 mbps capability in 2005:

http://www.physorg.com/news7068.html

US broadband trailing other countries:

http://blogs.computerworld.com/node/6500

Edited by Boz

Physical media has a long way to go still.

Hell I can't even stream HD movies internally in my house without hiccups/slowdowns (damn wireless).

The best internet speed I can get currently is 2-3MB (on 8MB DSL MAX).

Download limits would suffer under these proposals as well, and the UK loves download limits/"fair use" policies.

another note to add, a lot of people, like myself, like to have a physical collection, I like having a large movie shelf. If a wanna go to a mates and watch a movie I own, all I gotta do is pick it up and go.

This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Posts

    • Yup, that's a doozy right there 😄
    • It's a bundle of tools created by a variety of people, so things can go wrong sometimes. It's a great addition to Windows, and I use a lot of the tools on a daily basis. Also, it's still a 0.**** release so quick updates are to be expected 😉
    • Oh, I did. And it's even worse than I was hoping! Besides a lot of techno-babble jargon (yes I understand 100% of it but it's still all just techno-babble) there's 2 key points that make me super-weary about even considering testing this out. -- By default, after installation, a relay is automatically set up, so you do not need to care about that. * Non-chatmail apps use email servers as a long-term message archive while chatmail clients use email servers for ephemeral instant message relay. * Supporting the full variety of classic email setups would require considerable development and maintenance efforts, and complicate making chatmail-based messaging more resilient, reliable and fast. -- Basically, the end-user device is the 'server' (relay) so there is NO ARCHIVING whatsoever because every message is necessarily ephemeral. Great for techno-paranoia (and for illicit activities preferring no tracks to cover) but terrible for everybody else. It's also ironically contradictory to engineering principles of redundancies besides the transport layers due to the explicit absence of any persistent storage. Instead of 'classic email address' retaining multi-GB messaging archives on its server, now every device must retain 100% of those storage demands. (Email messages were originally meant to be short correspondences, not the multi-MB attachments boondoggle that now exists with unlimited spam engines flooding every potential recipient.) Any device swap or reset (or loss) makes the entire message history go bye-bye forever... lest there's an off-device auto-archival "relay" mechanism that's really a separate server that holds onto all transported messages (an email server) that utilizes 'chatmail email address' identities (like an email server) and its own persistent storage archive (like an email server). But... this solution is hoping to exist alongside real-world email address identities (based on the email server relay pathway) but simply render messages in chat thread format in an ephemeral manner (with contents being encrypted, and messages auto-expiring) ... In the end, it's a chat app/experience for the Web3/P2P-at-all-costs zealots. (I have accts on all sorts of federated web3 services so I understand the technical and non-technical alike.) For any practical users, however, it's just another service to download/install, register, cross-share id cards/qr codes, but know that there's no history/archive whatsoever (by design) so no account/message recovery whatsoever... update the device, install a bummed update patch, or dare upgrade your device... all history, poof, gone. Ya gotta start everything over again like they're a brand new person.
    • You've tried DuckDuckGo and Brave Search, now get serious with SearXNG by Paul Hill Over the last decade, it has become quite trendy to dump Google Search in favor of privacy-preserving alternatives such as DuckDuckGo, Startpage, and Brave Search. These search engines have done a very good job at highlighting dodgy practices by Google, such as adjusting search results based on what it thinks you’ll like (filter bubble) and stalking you around the web to advertise to you. While these search engines are good starting points when compared to non-private services like Google, there are still quite a few issues with them. For example, both DuckDuckGo and Brave Search require running non-free JavaScript in your web browser, which is comparable to running proprietary software on your computer, meaning you can be sure about what it’s actually doing in the background. Another issue is that these search engines are hosted on the respective companies’ servers, and you are using a service that you don’t control. Finally, DuckDuckGo, while offering privacy features, relies heavily on Microsoft’s infrastructure for its results and, in the past, has permitted Microsoft tracking scripts. If you are looking for a more private search solution than DuckDuckGo, Brave Search, and Startpage, then I recommend taking a look at SearXNG. It is a privacy-respecting metasearch engine that can be used via different public instances, which is useful for mobile users, or you can install it on your computer or server and run it locally with maximum control. Unlike Google, Bing, or Brave Search, which crawl the web and have their own search indexes, SearXNG is a metasearch engine, meaning it taps other search engines, stripping your identifying data, such as IP address, user agent, and cookies, in the process. Your search query is sent to the other search engines you enable before aggregating the results. SearXNG has deployment flexibility. If you are a casual user or a mobile user and don’t want to run SearXNG locally, you can use a public instance that is hosted by someone else. The main problem with this is that you are putting trust in the maintainer of the instance regarding stuff like logs that they may keep; good hosts should have a privacy policy explaining their policies. If you are trying to use SearXNG, you can also install the software on your device and then head to 127.0.0.1:8080 in your browser and search from there. While you don’t have to worry about a third-party admin like the public instances, search engines could ultimately block your IP address if they frown on you pulling in their search results locally. If you want to run it locally, it’s a good idea to use proxies or VPNs to hide your actual IP. You don’t have to worry about this with a public instance, as search engines never see your IP address. The main privacy benefit of using SearXNG is that it isolates your identity from the underlying engines that it’s capable of searching, such as Google and Bing. These search engines will only see requests coming from a generic server, so they can’t profile you and create a bubble filter that influences what results you see. This also ensures that your search engine doesn’t turn into an echo chamber that prevents you from reading alternative points of view. As a free software project, you are allowed to inspect SearXNG to make sure there are no negative features bundled inside. This sets it apart from the privacy search engines mentioned earlier because you can’t check their source code. As a meta search engine, you are not restricted to getting results from one source. Due to the fact that it scrapes content from other websites, your SearXNG instance will periodically get blocked from different providers, so it’s good to select a range of sources as a backup. While enabling all of the services will give you great results, this can make searching slower. I am personally happy with slower searches for the best results, but you can always check which providers are slowing down your search from the search results page and disable them to speed things up. If you want decent results quickly, enable the main search providers such as Google, Brave, DuckDuckGo, Qwant, Bing, and Yahoo. This way, you get wide coverage without the latency. On the Engines tab in Preferences, do note that there are different tabs, such as General, Images, and Videos, with their own providers that can be toggled and are not covered by "Enable all" while on the General tab, so be sure to dig into each. Just a note, if you want to enable everything, press "Enable all" in one tab, then hit save at the bottom of the page, then do the next tab, and so on. If you press "Enable all", then do that in each tab, and then save, nothing will stick. When I had just some of the search engines enabled, I searched “define nefarious” and results came back with the definition of “define” - obviously that was a sucky result. However, when I had everything enabled, it found dictionary pages for the word “nefarious” and even had an inline definition on the sidebar, which is quite nice too - that was delivered by WolframAlpha for anyone wondering! Probably the worst thing about this meta search engine is that the engines you select are saved with a cookie, so you must enable them on every new device you use SearXNG on, including if you decide to go into incognito mode with your web browser. Honestly, I would say this is the most annoying aspect, and perhaps if your browser lets you choose a separate private browsing search engine, then it would be best to use DuckDuckGo for this portion of your browsing. Another weakness of SearXNG is the random blocking of it by search providers. When you are on the results page, expand the “Response time” box, and it will show things like “Suspended: too many requests” or “access denied”. This is why it is good to enable several providers so that there is always a fallback to get results from. I won’t pretend SearXNG will be for everyone, however, if you enable all of the providers and put up with the slower response time, the results can be really amazing. Even if you don’t want to use it as your daily driver, keeping a bookmark handy that links to it is a good idea if you ever feel like doing a deep dive into a niche topic where other search engines are just failing to bring up any good result, due to the amount of sources it looks on. If you’re interested in radical user control over the software you use, installing SearXNG locally can also be a good idea, but be prepared to be temporarily blocked from sites if you trigger bot sensors without a VPN. Personally, I’ve opted to use a public instance, rather than install it myself. If you want to use it via a public instance, head over to searx.space to find a provider. Let us know in the comments if you have used SearXNG or its predecessor, Searx. What do you think about the quality of the results?
    • Dear Neowin, If it is not too much trouble, can you start using the new-ish designations for Insider Preview? "Experimental" is different than "former Dev" as it can apply to different models, eg 26H1 or 26H2 etc, right? No need to seed confusion IMHO. And, please "finally" update your graphics. OK?
  • Recent Achievements

    • Week One Done
      flexorcist earned a badge
      Week One Done
    • One Month Later
      Woland13 earned a badge
      One Month Later
    • Week One Done
      Woland13 earned a badge
      Week One Done
    • One Year In
      bernmeister earned a badge
      One Year In
    • Week One Done
      Scoobystu earned a badge
      Week One Done
  • Popular Contributors

    1. 1
      +primortal
      503
    2. 2
      +Edouard
      226
    3. 3
      PsYcHoKiLLa
      158
    4. 4
      Steven P.
      75
    5. 5
      FloatingFatMan
      71
  • Tell a friend

    Love Neowin? Tell a friend!