The Great UAC Debate!


UAC  

1412 members have voted

  1. 1. Do You Use UAC?

    • Yes
      477
    • Yes, On "Silent Mode"
      91
    • No (I use an Admin Account)
      496
    • No (I use a Standard Account)
      39
    • I don't use Windows Vista
      118
  2. 2. Have You Ever Been Saved By UAC?

    • Yes
      226
    • No
      932
    • I don't use Windows Vista
      106


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I'm really not sure why this is such a big deal. People who want UAC enabled should leave it enabled. Those who want it disabled (myself included) should disable it.

Next :)

+1

I'll also echo how annoying general customization (like the 'new' Start menu folder system) is with UAC enabled. They made it harder to organize due to folder restructuring then add in UAC and you are pretty much forced to use the new search feature to find anything. (N)

How else do you suggest any OS protect against their users installing crap? If the user decides to do something (and they have Administrator access), they are damn well going to do it.

No admin access to users.

Application installations generally require admin privileges by design. Administrators don't want their users installing applications without their permission (or at all, really). Application installs generally affect the entire machine.

B-a-d design, completely destroys security. Holy donkey, if application install affect the entire machine then that is just retarded.

If user has access to any place of course it's possible to run portable applications. In that case it's completely irrevelant whether a user has admin or limited access. Whitelists are meant to restrict that.

gain you are speaking from ignorance. If UAC is disabled, there is no way for one application to have different levels of access than another application. If UAC is disabled, any application can take ownership of any file on any drive of the system, and do with it as it pleases. Any application can manipulate, read data from, or inject code into any other application in the user's session.

Well I am not even using Vista right now but are you seriously suggesting that prior Vista there isn't any separation between applications launched with admin credentials or LUA? Huh, that would be every admin's nightmare. I know that I can't delete or alter my music files etc. without admin account. So programs that I run from my account can't touch them. If they can, then obviously Windows is completely screwed up.

This is an excerpt from

http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/...7.aspx#comments

I so miss the good old dos days where things were simple and most applications weren't messing your OS structures and configuration.

What you get now, is that every dev thinks that it's cool to write 'gold' to registry on every users machine and leave that 'gold' behind. Every dev tries to use COM's to kill flies. And don't let me start on MSI. I think the fact that VS2005SP1 ~300MB (by Microsoft) cannot be installed with 5GB of free space on HDD and ruins the whole system when out of space tells everything. I really do have 'warm' feeling for this technology.

I agree, couldn't install Office trial because stupid installer had obsession to write to C:\ then I decided to be a pirate.

Dadaa it's all 'bout the money and MS choose not to accept mine by delivering uninstallable product. I don't have to tell you that Office portable works great.

Well I am not even using Vista right now but are you seriously suggesting that prior Vista there isn't any separation between applications launched with admin credentials or LUA? Huh, that would be every admin's nightmare. I know that I can't delete or alter my music files etc. without admin account. So programs that I run from my account can't touch them. If they can, then obviously Windows is completely screwed up.

What? I think you just described Admin Approval mode (That's default configuration with UAC on, running as an Admin)

Programs normally launch with a Medium IL, but you can force them to launch with a High IL with a UAC prompt.

No admin access to users.

Wait... so you're saying someone who buys a Dell computer and sets it up in their home should not have admin access to their own computer? That's absurd.

Enterprises by and large do not give admin access to most of their users. In that case, UAC is moot because UAC only applies to Administrator accounts. It grants Administrators the ability to run specific applications with lower privilege levels (without the hassle of switching accounts).

OS X has a very similar feature. The default OS X account has administrator-level privileges, but every time you install something or change a system setting, you are asked to type in your password. This is largely the same functionality as UAC, though obviously a bit more intrusive since it requires you to type your password each time.

B-a-d design, completely destroys security. Holy donkey, if application install affect the entire machine then that is just retarded.

If user has access to any place of course it's possible to run portable applications. In that case it's completely irrevelant whether a user has admin or limited access. Whitelists are meant to restrict that.

I'm not even sure what you're talking about. In enterprise environments, admins don't want their users to run "portable" applications. They don't want them running anything that wasn't provided for them by IT.

How does installing applications such that multiple users can access them destroy security? OS X, Linux, and FreeBSD work in the same way. You're saying they all got it wrong? More likely, you simply have a very narrow view of the problem and haven't considered all the angles. In your model, with no support for system-wide application installs, it would be impossible for an IT admin to install software for his users. That seems pretty broken to me...

Well I am not even using Vista right now but are you seriously suggesting that prior Vista there isn't any separation between applications launched with admin credentials or LUA? Huh, that would be every admin's nightmare. I know that I can't delete or alter my music files etc. without admin account. So programs that I run from my account can't touch them. If they can, then obviously Windows is completely screwed up.

Prior to Vista, every application that an Administrator runs has the same privileges, and can interact with every other application on the same desktop. Vista introduces UIPI which prevents applications with different privilege levels from interacting with or manipulating each other.

If you are running Windows XP as a non-admin, but you launch an application as an Admin user on the same desktop, you have immediately raised the effective privilege level of every application on that desktop to the Admin level. Because the non-admin applications can inject code into the Admin-level process and do whatever they want at that privilege level. This was one of the greatest architectural limitations in Windows prior to Vista when it comes to privilege isolation.

If you're suggesting that all users should disable UAC and then run as non-admin accounts without write access to their own personal files... that's absolutely absurd. That might work for you, which is fine. But I know about a billion Windows users who would never stand for that user experience.

Besides, all that you accomplish by doing that is exactly what UAC already does - but with a far more painful user experience and far less application compatibility.

This is an excerpt from

http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/...7.aspx#comments

I so miss the good old dos days where things were simple and most applications weren't messing your OS structures and configuration.

What you get now, is that every dev thinks that it's cool to write 'gold' to registry on every users machine and leave that 'gold' behind. Every dev tries to use COM's to kill flies. And don't let me start on MSI. I think the fact that VS2005SP1 ~300MB (by Microsoft) cannot be installed with 5GB of free space on HDD and ruins the whole system when out of space tells everything. I really do have 'warm' feeling for this technology.

I agree, couldn't install Office trial because stupid installer had obsession to write to C:\ then I decided to be a pirate.

Dadaa it's all 'bout the money and MS choose not to accept mine by delivering uninstallable product. I don't have to tell you that Office portable works great.

I'm not even sure what you're on about there. Especially these "gold" registry entries and whatever that is that person tried to say about COM.

As for disk space, it's obvious that some applications require more disk space during install than they do once the installation is finished. That's not a hard concept to grasp... the installation package is compressed. The package needs to be decompressed to get at the actual installation files - and if you decide not to install all the pieces, the end result will be less disk space that was used during the install because there's no point in keeping around those extracted files that weren't used.

If you are running Windows XP as a non-admin, but you launch an application as an Admin user on the same desktop, you have immediately raised the effective privilege level of every application on that desktop to the Admin level. Because the non-admin applications can inject code into the Admin-level process and do whatever they want at that privilege level. This was one of the greatest architectural limitations in Windows prior to Vista when it comes to privilege isolation.

It was also impossible to run that app as an Admin, under your account profile, which I think is one of the greatest things about UAC.

Edited by MioTheGreat
It was also impossible to run that app as an Admin, under your account profile, which I think it one of the greatest things about UAC.

Right, you had to run in the context of a different user (which means it hits that user's registry, user profile, etc). Further, that privilege escalation problem I mentioned also gave your apps access to that admin user's personal data.

What I want in UAC is to have an option to remember some choices I make.

Like in many firewall prompts...Allow, Deny, Always Allow, Always Deny. And also a management console to add, modify, edit those choices so if someone changes their mind about a program then they can do it.

I'm hoping future versions will not have an option to disable UAC, any insider info on that possibility?

Whoa daddy.. Its posts like this that get on my nerves. Why does it matter if some of us want to turn off UAC. Does it affect you personally? No. I'm also fed up of the attitude from some people that we're all clueless n00bs if we turn it off. We get the point of what UAC is supposed to do and see how it improves security, we just really dislike the implementation of it. So much so that we turn it off.

I did a fresh install on my laptop recently with the latest SP1 and I really tried this time to stick with UAC after I'd got everything installed but it really drove me up the wall and within 2/3 days I'd turned it back off. I shouldn't have to confirm(or in some cases, double confirm, i.e renaming an icon on my desktop, yes I know the "All users" reason why it does it but still) everything I do on my PC.

So I vote no to both.

Whoa daddy.. Its posts like this that get on my nerves. Why does it matter if some of us want to turn off UAC. Does it affect you personally? No. I'm also fed up of the attitude from some people that we're all clueless n00bs if we turn it off. We get the point of what UAC is supposed to do and see how it improves security, we just really dislike the implementation of it. So much so that we turn it off.

I disagree. By running your machine in a blatantly insecure manner, you are opening up your box to become a DoS or e-mail spamming bot that will affect me personally. Further, it would stop people (like several on this thread) who disable UAC on other peoples machines, or who advise others to out of ignorance.

Now, if you want to run as "root" all the time by using the built-in Administrator account (which isn't affected by UAC), then that's your prerogative. But just like running as "root" on *nix / OS X, the stupidity of doing so should be obvious to anyone.

That said, improvements to UAC (and specifically, the Secure Desktop switch) are in order. SP1 improves some areas, like creating/renaming new folders and such. I'd be surprised if the UAC experience didn't improve further over time.

By running your machine in a blatantly insecure manner, you are opening up your box to become a DoS or e-mail spamming bot that will affect me personally

I knew someone would say that. Again its the whole "If you don't run UAC, you must be a clueless n00b" mentality. It's unfair to assume that just because we dislike the way UAC is implemented and disable it we're all idiots who are going to install or get infected by tons of spyware/viruses.

If I managed to keep our PC's clean and proper for however many years I ran XP and its predecessors then I think I'll be ok and if for whatever reason my PC did manage to get infected via something that UAC could have prevented, It wouldn't be left like that for long, so no it wouldn't sit there email spamming or joining a botnet.

As for the thing about turning off other people's UAC, this is something I personally wouldn't do..

I've had UAC off for as long as I can have had Vista installed. Haven't got into any mess, nothing to report. I do , however have Spybot SD installed, which is somewhat similar to the UAC - but not as annoying.

Spybot is not in any way, shape, or form even slightly similar to UAC. Perhaps you should read some of the above posts where the purpose of UAC is clarified.

I knew someone would say that. Again its the whole "If you don't run UAC, you must be a clueless n00b" mentality. It's unfair to assume that just because we dislike the way UAC is implemented and disable it we're all idiots who are going to install or get infected by tons of spyware/viruses.

Again, UAC is not there to prevent you from installing spyware or viruses.

Again, UAC is not there to prevent you from installing spyware or viruses.

I realise this, I was just trying to refute your argument that turning off UAC suddenly means that we're also the type to have our PC's turned into DDOS/email bots or that turning off UAC opens us up to that.

I keep UAC on for the reasons mentioned above: sandbox-like functionality for Internet Explorer, registry/file virtualization for older apps, and of course for that small sense of idiot-proofness.

However, the one main problem for UAC still stands: what about those apps that users have to constantly elevate themselves because either a) the app's developer hasn't issued an update yet, or b) the app is an old classic that has since been abandoned? This is where an article on Microsoft's support site comes handy:

How to disable the User Account Control Prompt for certain application

Keep UAC on and follow this guide to create your own whitelist of applications that must be elevated each time you use them. (I don't know if this simply disables the prompt or it disables the prompt AND elevates it to admin privileges. If it's the latter, then I think there's an extra option or two in the Compatibility Fixes section of the database wizard that enables admin privileges.)

That article could become useful. The worst offender for the UAC was WinRAR. Extracting files via the context menu didn't work at all, likely because when you open the main WinRAR windows - UAC requires permission.

I don't know why they call it the User Account Control when you can't turn it on for one user and have it off for another. It's either on for everyone or off for everyone.

That article could become useful. The worst offender for the UAC was WinRAR. Extracting files via the context menu didn't work at all, likely because when you open the main WinRAR windows - UAC requires permission.

I don't know why they call it the User Account Control when you can't turn it on for one user and have it off for another. It's either on for everyone or off for everyone.

UAC works perfectly with WinRAR, Why do people keep saying this. I have NEVER gotten a prompt from winrar in vista. Are you running an old version? 3.71 is working great for me with UAC.

I personally turn off UAC since I know what I am doing. But UAC does save people. Two of my friends has vista laptop with UAC and I they used get spyware infection regularly and every time we hang out I had to clean their computers. But with vista both are spyware free. They still have the IE toolber cluttered thanks to default instllation of yahoo messenger and aol messenger but I set Firefox as default browser and they are running problem free.

My initial expectations of what the guide allowed us to do with elevating applications were a bit off. I assumed this allowed any application full admin privileges without the need of any prompt.

What that guide helps you to do is to disable the prompt for only those applications that trigger them (i.e. running RivaTuner on startup). My test was to see if a simple app like Notepad could write to the Windows folder. RunAsAdmin or RunAsHighest triggered UAC prompts. Using the ForceAsAdmin gave Notepad admin rights, but virtualized it (so all files went into AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Windows).

Guess there's no real whitelist then. :/ (not that I'm using any applications that are problematic under UAC)

Edited by rm20010
I personally turn off UAC since I know what I am doing. But UAC does save people. Two of my friends has vista laptop with UAC and I they used get spyware infection regularly and every time we hang out I had to clean their computers. But with vista both are spyware free. They still have the IE toolber cluttered thanks to default instllation of yahoo messenger and aol messenger but I set Firefox as default browser and they are running problem free.

Seriousy. Do you people even bother to read any of the other posts in the thread before you post things.

Leaving UAC on or turning it off should have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you 'know what you're doing' (Though, the 'just enough knowledge to be dangerous' people seem to like to turn it off.).

UAC has nothing to do with those toolbars, or installing software (Since the installer generally wants to elevate itself anyway), or your mistakes.

It's about keeping processes running with as few privileges as they need to perform their function, so as to prevent them from potentially doing harm, mostly by exploits (But it certainly helps prevent by accident.)

My initial expectations of what the guide allowed us to do with elevating applications were a bit off. I assumed this allowed any application full admin privileges without the need of any prompt.

What that guide helps you to do is to disable the prompt for only those applications that trigger them (i.e. running RivaTuner on startup). My test was to see if a simple app like Notepad could write to the Windows folder. RunAsAdmin or RunAsHighest triggered UAC prompts. Using the ForceAsAdmin gave Notepad admin rights, but virtualized it (so all files went into AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Windows).

Guess there's no real whitelist then. :/ (not that I'm using any applications that are problematic under UAC)

That guide explains how to override the manifest-specified elevation of some applications so that they do not attempt to run with administrator privileges. It does not allow them to elevate without prompting. If that were possible, then an attacker could likely use that mechanism to escalate privileges without the user being informed.

If it is being virtualized, it does not have admin rights. "RunAsInvoker" simply means "run with the same permissions as the application that launched this one."

So what happens if I download some freeware app and UAC tells me that 'This app wants to access your computer'?

If I click Deny - it closes.

If I click Allow - it'll be able to do what it wants. Since I obviously want to run the program since I dbl-clicked it - I'll most likely click allow anyway, due to the fact that there are no details.

Where's the 'Details' button?

Ryan, that is what UAC does. Asking if you are sure you want to launch a program you already ordered the computer to open. I don't like things or people "questioning" my orders :(

People disable it because it's their choice, not becaise they don't understand the purpose of it. Many programs simply don't work with UAC enabled. For example, I still enjoy playing NFS High Stakes. Since the game is not very friendly with multi-tasking and will crash when I go back ingame, if any UAC pops up.

Ryan, that is what UAC does. Asking if you are sure you want to launch a program you already ordered the computer to open. I don't like things or people "questioning" my orders :(

Why post in this thread if you haven't read any of it? I knew literacy was a problem in this country, but had no idea it had gotten so bad.

So, for the 100th time: that is absolutely not what UAC does.

People disable it because it's their choice, not becaise they don't understand the purpose of it. Many programs simply don't work with UAC enabled. For example, I still enjoy playing NFS High Stakes. Since the game is not very friendly with multi-tasking and will crash when I go back ingame, if any UAC pops up.

There is no way UAC has any effect on that game.

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I understand that some may find the list of all apps way too clean, but fortunately, DuRoBo lets you switch to traditional icons. The reader also has a bunch of preinstalled apps: Read: The default app for reading. Browser: A Chromium-based browser. Files: A simple file manager. Music: A simple music player. Spark: A voice recorder with transcription support and AI summarization DuRoBo AI: A built-in AI chatbot. Transfer: An app for file transfer over Wi-Fi. If that is not enough, there is the Google Play Store, where you can download all the extra apps you need, alternative readers, podcast apps, chatbots, and more. DuRoBo is not trying to give you an all-in-one device. The standard software experience is quite minimal, which makes it easy to approach and learn. The standard reader supports EPUB, EPUB3, AZW3, MOBI, PDF, TXT, DOC, and DOCX, which is more than enough to let you read most books without third-party software. As for customizing the reading experience, you can select one of five built-in fonts, adjust size and thickness, adjust margins and spacing (only three variants for each), change text alignment and direction, toggle the reading status bar, and switch to dark mode. There is also text-to-speech, which utilizes Android's default TTS tech. While I like the simplistic approach, I cannot help but feel DuRoBo could have made the built-in reader a bit more customizable. However, I am not going to bog down on this, as you can always install any other reader you prefer using the Play Store or by sideloading an APK. Getting books to the Krono is very simple. Given that the device is an Android smartphone without cellular connectivity, you can transfer files via a USB Type-C cable, download them using the built-in browser, share them over Bluetooth, or use cloud storage. My favorite was the built-in Transfer app. It is simple, reliable, and very well-designed. I was surprised by how well-designed the web portal is. It is fast, pretty, and properly categorized. Well done! Once you have your books loaded, you can highlight or underline text, add annotations, bookmark pages, check the table of contents, and ask AI about the selected text. Unfortunately, the Krono has no built-in vocabulary, but again, that is something a third-party reader could fix. Overall, the built-in reader is light and snappy, with just the minimum amount of features for a regular user to enjoy reading books. The Krono has no built-in reading tracking, so stat nerds will have to look for third-party reading apps. However, you can set a daily reading goal, and the reader will notify you when you reach it (for example, one hour). You can also set a reminder to read at a certain time, and when the time comes, the Krono will light up its back LEDs and unlock itself to nudge you. Other than that, the rear LEDs do nothing, not even showing charging progress, which is an unfortunate misopportunity if you ask me. Quirks aside, Krono's Android runs quite snappily and bug-free. Early reviews of the Krono criticized its Android 13-based software quite a lot, but now, the reader runs Android 15, and its software has fixed plenty of initial complaints. I never experienced any issues with built-in apps. AI attempts The DuRoBo Krono comes with a built-in AI chatbot. There is no information on what model powers this thing, but the system says it was "trained by Google." You can launch the bot from the app list or by double-pressing the dial. It works just like any other chatbot, and you can ask it anything by typing or using voice input. The AI saves your chats, and you can rename, export, or delete them. DuRoBo AI requires an active internet connection, and it does not work offline. Its reach and capabilities are also limited. You can only chat in the app and use it in the reader app as a makeshift vocabulary. However, the implementation is kinda awkward. You can only send a selected portion of text to AI without giving it any requests or instructions. I highlighted the word "dumb," and it apologized to me for not being useful. You also cannot ask follow-up questions or send the generated response to a separate chat. The chatbot is also slow, even with fast Wi-Fi, making the overall experience quite frustrating, which makes me again wish for the ability to remap the double press to something else. Spark, the standard voice recording app, also uses AI for note summarization and transcribing. Neither feature works offline, unfortunately. Spark records notes up to 30 minutes using Krono's dual microphones, and you can rename or export notes. Transcription quality is decent, and the speed is alright, but you can find much better solutions in the Google Play Store. What I like about Spark is that transcribed notes are not locked, and you can always type more to elaborate on your ideas, which is handy. Overall, I like that the Krono is not shoving AI down my throat, but to be honest, there is really not that much to shove. AI features here feel raw and need improvements to be more useful. Battery Life Like most E-Ink readers, the Krono has fantastic battery life. Even with a clock as a screensaver, its standby power consumption is incredibly low. And when in use, you can get weeks of reading on a single charge. Without the front light, my unit never sipped more than one or two percent of battery during a one-hour reading session. It was nice to see plenty of battery-related settings. You can limit charging at 80% to protect battery health long-term, check the number of charging cycles, manufacturing/first-time use date, battery health, and the maximum capacity. Additionally, the Krono lets you select what hardware remains enabled when sleeping. This lets you keep Wi-Fi and Bluetooth on (say, if you want to receive notifications, for some reason) and keep audio playing when locked. Turning these features off effectively eliminates any standby battery drain. I left my Krono sitting for 24 hours with a clock screensaver on, and it did not drop a single percent. The pretty big 3,950 mAh battery justifies the device's thickness and ensures you do not have to charge it for long periods. Speaking of charging, it is capped at only 10W, which is a bit disappointing, as getting such a big battery to 100% takes a notably long time in the era of super-fast charging smartphones. DuRoBo Moodi The Moodi is a standalone, optional accessory for your Krono. It is a wireless remote with two customizable buttons that you can use to flip pages, control media, or scroll webpages. The accessory connects via Bluetooth. Despite having a built-in rechargeable battery, it is extremely light. While the Moodi's shape and form factor is not what I would call particularly ergonomic, it is not uncomfortable to hold and use. The Moodi comes with six removable magnetic buttons with various smiley faces. Buttons sit securely, and they have nice-feeling, albeit a little loud, clicks. It is a cute touch that adds a little more fun and character to the device. There is also an accented power button and a single status LED. The latter displays charging status and connection mode. The Moodi supports three modes: Reading: Buttons work as volume buttons, allowing you to flip pages in the built-in reader or other apps that support page turning with volume buttons. Media: Buttons work as skip forward/backward, which is useful when listening to audiobooks, podcasts, or music. Scroll: The third mode lets you scroll pages in the web browser or any other application The Krono properly detects the Moodi and presents you with an on-screen guide when you connect it for the first time (it also displays the battery level). However, you can only change modes by holding both buttons for a few seconds. It is also worth noting that the Moodi works with other devices. I connected it to my iPhone and it let me adjust volume or control media playback. Sadly, the scroll did not work, so you cannot use it to waste time scrolling TikToks. Overall, the Moodi is a cute little accessory, which I can recommend for those who read a lot. It is very useful for remote page flipping when you do not want to burden your hands by holding the Krono all the time. I only wish DuRoBo included a lanyard for the built-in loop. As for the battery life, after using the Moodi for a few days, I only managed to drop several percent of its 90 mAh battery. Despite the small size, it is rated for weeks of use, which is pretty impressive. At $35.99, I cannot say the Moodi is a must-have accessory, but I see the appeal. I prefer using the Krono with its Smart Dial, as I rarely read for more than 40-60 minutes in one sitting. However, if you have a stand and like reading for long periods, the Moodi is the right thing to have. It is a bit more expensive than regular page flippers on Amazon, but it is on par with similar products from Kobo or BOOX. Plus, it has a little more fun to it with removable buttons and better integration into the Krono. Conclusion At the end of the day, DuRoBo Krono is a nice pocket-sized e-reader. Its software focuses on the main things without trying to be everything at once. The smart dial idea is unique and great, and I wish more manufacturers had something similar in their devices. The display is also good, with an even frontlight and "always-on" support. I did not notice any deal-breaking issues with the Krono. However, you can feel that the idea needs some improvements, such as a slightly stiffer dial in a more ergonomic location, perhaps a little more premium materials, and better software customization. I hope the company won't give up on the idea and improve the dial and ergonomics in the second generation. Buy DuRoBo Krono Black - $279.99 on Amazon Buy DuRoBo Krono White - $279.99 on Amazon Buy DuRoBo Moodi - $35.99 on Amazon As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.
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