Stardock's relationship with Neowin and its criticizers

[Shaun N.]

*Grabs Popcorn*

[Calum Veteran]

i never made any claims. it was a suggestion. a maybe.

An unfair, unsupported, suggestion, which I am sure is untrue.

You say it is an unfair assumption, but people are always going to have their opinions, and until someone provides the proof those misgivings will continue to exist. The nature of life is that people will always doubt things, and you accusing us of being despicable just because we doubt the "official" story is a little bit sad to be honest. I am not making my point in a way intended to flame any particular member of staff, I was merely stating an opinion.

I am not a hater of stardock, I use LogonStudio, but... Never... I like Windows to look like Windows

People are always going to have doubts about things, yes, and I think that is despicable, especially when it is something which is trustworthy.

I always wait until I have facts instead of making unfair assumptions and if I ever did make unfair, unsupported, assumptions, I would keep them to myself instead of publicly stating them, until I found out whether my assumptions were true or not :)

Many people may take your words seriously even though you don't know about it and are just assuming.

Again, i only suggested it. for a mod, you should be able to read better before you accuse members of making claims and assumptions.

If you read my previous posts again, you will see I acknowledged that this was a claim which you weren't sure about.

A claim which someone isn't sure about is a suggestion.

*Grabs Popcorn*

We are just discussing Stardock's relationship with Neowin :D That is all :)

Edited April 2, 2009 by Calum

[Pas]

i'm willing to bet that if stardock's apps were all freebies, there wouldn't be any concern of the relationship between neowin and stardock. besides that, all the stardock haters would love the company since they could get the apps for nothing instead of installing warez versions and then complaining about the apps not working. like Jase said, get a job and buy legit apps.

[Subject Delta]

People are always going to have doubts about things, yes, and I think that is despicable, especially when it is something which is trustworthy.

I always wait until I have facts instead of making unfair assumptions and if I ever did make unfair, unsupported, assumptions, I would keep them to myself instead of publicly stating them, until I found out whether my assumptions were true or not :)

Many people may take your words seriously even though you don't know about it and are just assuming.

But all I have is your word for that, why should I take your word as fact if you refuse to provide any factual data to backup your claim? Whilst I reiterate I have nothing against Neowin or Stardock, it just amuses me that you have the tumerity to call someone despicable just because they disagree with your word on things. In a lot of cases, if people just accepted the "offical" explanation and never questioned it, justice would never have been done, (although I have seen a few examples the best I can think of is United Airlines Flight 911 where the work of 2 parents caused the NTSB to change the reason for the crash. The NTSB are a generally trustworthy body, so by your retainer the parents should be called despicable for questioning them).

Anyway, Unless you intend to provide the evidence to back your claim up, I believe you should stop what is essentially insulting members for questioning your versions of events.

i'm willing to bet that if stardock's apps were all freebies, there wouldn't be any concern of the relationship between neowin and stardock. besides that, all the stardock haters would love the company since they could get the apps for nothing instead of installing warez versions and then complaining about the apps not working. like Jase said, get a job and buy legit apps.

So you are assuming that everyone who has ever had problems with any of Stardock's software is warezing it despite having no proof? amusing

[DaveLegg Developer]

But all I have is your word for that, why should I take your word as fact if you refuse to provide any factual data to backup your claim? Whilst I reiterate I have nothing against Neowin or Stardock, it just amuses me that you have the tumerity to call someone despicable just because they disagree with your word on things. In a lot of cases, if people just accepted the "offical" explanation and never questioned it, justice would never have been done, (although I have seen a few examples the best I can think of is United Airlines Flight 911 where the work of 2 parents caused the NTSB to change the reason for the crash. The NTSB are a generally trustworthy body, so by your retainer the parents should be called despicable for questioning them).

Anyway, Unless you intend to provide the evidence to back your claim up, I believe you should stop what is essentially insulting members for questioning your versions of events.

Look at the comments on any news story on the front page related to Stardock, you'll see that we don't delete all the negative opinions towards the company and their products.

[Calum Veteran]

But all I have is your word for that, why should I take your word as fact if you refuse to provide any factual data to backup your claim? Whilst I reiterate I have nothing against Neowin or Stardock, it just amuses me that you have the tumerity to call someone despicable just because they disagree with your word on things. In a lot of cases, if people just accepted the "offical" explanation and never questioned it, justice would never have been done, (although I have seen a few examples the best I can think of is United Airlines Flight 911 where the work of 2 parents caused the NTSB to change the reason for the crash. The NTSB are a generally trustworthy body, so by your retainer the parents should be called despicable for questioning them).

Anyway, Unless you intend to provide the evidence to back your claim up, I believe you should stop what is essentially insulting members for questioning your versions of events.

I have provided evidence.

The Neowin community rules are evidence. You know us staff go by those rules only when moderating and you know we expect our members to go by those rules when posting. You also know that no one is allowed to break those rules; staff included.

The rules are evidence to back up my claim because it doesn't state anywhere in those rules what bAsKeT cAsE and others have been assuming.

I have never insulted any members here. I said it is despicable for anybody in the world to assume things without facts, I have not said that about any members here. I would like this to stay as a mature discussion about Stardock's relationship with Neowin and I only posted in this thread in the first place to say that bAsKeT cAsE's suggestion was unfair and unsupported, just to make everyone aware of that.

Look at the comments on any news story on the front page related to Stardock, you'll see that we don't delete all the negative opinions towards the company and their products.

More evidence to back up what I am saying.

[Subject Delta]

Look at the comments on any news story on the front page related to Stardock, you'll see that we don't delete all the negative opinions towards the company and their products.

I didn't accuse you of deleting them, that may have been someone else my point was mainly that Neowin would be more likely to obey stardock's wishes than conflict with them. A small example is that threads about leaks of Stardock products would probably be removed even if they contained no information on where to acquire them, yet in most other cases (example 7 beta builds) the threads aren't removed.

Like I said though I don't personally think the quality of Neowin is the worse for wear for having Stardock on board, I just stated a small opinion and I find calum's rather insulting stance on things to be a little unfair.

I have provided evidence.

The Neowin community rules are evidence. You know us staff go by those rules only when moderating and you know we expect our members to go by those rules when posting. You also know that no one is allowed to break those rules; staff included.

The rules are evidence to back up my claim because it doesn't state anywhere in those rules what bAsKeT cAsE and others have been assuming.

I have never insulted any members here. I said it is despicable for anybody in the world to assume things without facts, I have not said that about any members here. I would like this to stay as a mature discussion about Stardock's relationship with Neowin and I only posted in this thread in the first place to say that bAsKeT cAsE's suggestion was unfair and unsupported, just to make everyone aware of that.

I haven't said anything immature, I am just questioning why you feel the need to make insulting blanket statements about people who disagree with your point of view. And last time I checked, a set of rules aren't proof of anything, I could turn around and say "because the rules of the UK state that murder is illegal it never happens", but we all know it does.

At the end of the day I just voiced an opinion and if you want to disagree with it, fair enough I just don't think it is fair that you can make blanket statements about people just because they won't take your word for something

[Calum Veteran]

Like I said though I don't personally think the quality of Neowin is the worse for wear for having Stardock on board, I just stated a small opinion and I find calum's rather insulting stance on things to be a little unfair.

I haven't said anything immature, I am just questioning why you feel the need to make insulting blanket statements about people who disagree with your point of view. And last time I checked, a set of rules aren't proof of anything, I could turn around and say "because the rules of the UK state that murder is illegal it never happens", but we all know it does.

At the end of the day I just voiced an opinion and if you want to disagree with it, fair enough I just don't think it is fair that you can make blanket statements about people just because they won't take your word for something

I think you have misread my posts greatly.

Please may you tell me what you think is insulting about my posts? I see nothing insulting about them - I have just been stating my case on this issue, as a member of Neowin myself.

I have never said you are immature, so that also tells me you haven't read my posts properly. I said I would like to keep this as a mature discussion, hoping you would keep the tone of your replies less negative (i.e. saying "it just amuses me that you have the tumerity to call someone despicable just because they disagree with your word on things" is not true. I only ever said people who make assumptions without facts are despicable, I never said members of Neowin are despicable and I never said it was because they disagree with me) . I did not say you have said anything immature and if that is what you are referring to then it is clear you are not reading my posts properly.

Please read my posts again and please send me a personal message to discuss this further with me. We need to stay on-topic in this thread, so the only way we can discuss this little misunderstanding is via personal message. Thank you :)

On-topic, to your reply -

A set of rules on Neowin are proof of what I am saying and using the UK Government is an unfair analogy. The difference between us and the UK state is that if a member of staff here does not go by the rules, that member of staff will always be caught. If a UK Government official murdered somebody, it is not definite they will be caught. Therefore, because we have to go by the rules, the rules are a very clear example which, to me, shows your suggestion is not true.

Edited April 2, 2009 by Calum

[Pas]

yeah, frank, a vast majority of issues people have with stardock apps are because they've installed either a warez copy of the stardock app or the os. i've been using stardock stuff since my win98 days and have yet to have a problem with any of their stuff. you'd be surprised how many people enter the forums and ask for help with a warez stardock app or wonder why their legit stardock app won't work properly on a warez xp installation. again, i'm sure if stardock gave windowblinds and other apps away for free, there would be no stardock haters. people wouldn't feel the need to download their warez stuff now would they?

if there is an valid issue with a stardock app, a simple uninstall and reinstall of the app will more than likely correct the issue. it's no different than virtually any app a person downloads.

[Subject Delta]

yeah, frank, a vast majority of issues people have with stardock apps are because they've installed either a warez copy of the stardock app or the os. i've been using stardock stuff since my win98 days and have yet to have a problem with any of their stuff. you'd be surprised how many people enter the forums and ask for help with a warez stardock app or wonder why their legit stardock app won't work properly on a warez xp installation. again, i'm sure if stardock gave windowblinds and other apps away for free, there would be no stardock haters. people wouldn't feel the need to download their warez stuff now would they?

if there is an valid issue with a stardock app, a simple uninstall and reinstall of the app will more than likely correct the issue. it's no different than virtually any app a person downloads.

Firstly... Whether you have an illegal copy of Windows or not makes no difference at all, the content of the files is exactly the same, the only difference is that you usually have to bypass the activation and WGA to get a warez'd copy of Windows to work, components which have no link with the Theming engine of Windows

Secondly... I disagree, I have had Windowblinds mess my system up on a couple of occasions, and that was when I was using both Legitimate copies of Windowblinds and Windows.

Sure, warez'd copies are less likely to work I totally agree with you, but assuming that everyone who ever has problems must be pirating in some way is just laughable

[Wannes]

So in your logic they still suck even though they have guaranteed our finances and ensure that we can stay online?

Sometimes I really wonder if some people believe in such things as free money trees :whistle:

No, but I once heard a fairy tale of a donkey who could .... money.

[Steven P. Administrators]

Frank, please stay on topic. I have given multiple examples of how Neowin is better off since Stardock made us a Limited Liability Company in 2005, if you can give me any examples of how service has deteriorated or we have been used as a corporate mouthpiece then do so. I personally think you are just spouting off for the hell of it.

Oh, and Stardock has plenty of freeware software too, not that that has anything to do with Neowin.net, just a heads up.

I will say again, that Stardock gets less coverage on Neowin than most other news websites, a quick Google search of "WindowBlinds" turns up other websites and Neowin isn't even on the first search page, despite having a dedicated WindowBlinds forum and news coverage of their releases. I chose WindowBlinds because that is their most popular and well known (shareware) application.

[-T- Member]

I personally don't feel that, apart from allowing it's continued existance, Stardock's input has changed Neowin at all. Sure there are people whom have had issues with the stardock software, and here is a good place to voice that, as there is a chance for open feedback from the actual developers.

I too at one point did use WB and did like others have issues at times, but this was way back in XP days, since Vista I allowed my subscription to expire as I felt no need to continue using it. I'm sure the issues I had have been rectified, but since theming has kinda died out since Vista, I'll have no real need to find out.

I've no problem with Stardock news being posted here, nor with Frogboy himself. I am thankful Stardock allowed my favoured news site to continue to exist for now and hopefully for many years to come.

[Stephen Veteran]

Neobond, tell them to bring back poweruser.tv and ill be happy =D

Agreed :p

[Neoauld]

Any company putting support into a free service like neowin is good imo

Neowin IS a service, for tech support and entertainment

not to mention..stardock itself is a great company

and honestly, i dont mind seeing stardock on the news here and there..i actually like the idea that feedback can be given to stardock through these forums which in turn makes better products(and lets face it they have top notch stuff)

[Buzz99]

Stardock apps have been a long time "crappy". They have since been much better apps, less ressources hog, and so on. I've never been a big fan of Stardock software but I must admit that they have much improve over time...I still not use any of them, but good for those who do. The relation between Neowin and Stardock is nothing more than their own business.

I still a big fan of Neowin :)

Thanks to Stardock, thanks to Neowin.

[Sethos]

I have nothing against Stardock, I just don't like nor use their software and services. Still is great they decide to support Neowin like they have (Y)

[Deathray]

I have nothing against Stardock, or Neowin over this... i don't understand what the big deal has been about... Sites require money to run

[ScottKin]

Disclaimer: I am a Stardock customer, have been one for 3 years and have had no problems with their software on any of the systems I currently have and/or have had over that time-span. I am also a former Software Test Engineer for Microsoft, and have worked on a variety of high-visibility software products from Microsoft

Firstly... Whether you have an illegal copy of Windows or not makes no difference at all, the content of the files is exactly the same, the only difference is that you usually have to bypass the activation and WGA to get a warez'd copy of Windows to work, components which have no link with the Theming engine of Windows

Where was "an illegal copy of Windows" even mentioned in Pas' comments? He was speaking about "warez" copies of Stardock software. Is it that difficult to differentiate the two, or do you automatically think of "Microsoft Windows" when someone mentions "wares"? :blink:

I've personally dealt 2 systems of someone I did some technical support for a few years ago that had pirated "warez" versions of Microsoft Windows XP, where the msi installer scripts actually included "backdoor" software like SubSeven in the install; hence, your claim of "the content of the files is exactly the same" appears to be somewhat inaccurate.

Secondly... I disagree, I have had Windowblinds mess my system up on a couple of occasions, and that was when I was using both Legitimate copies of Windowblinds and Windows.

Speaking of transparency and "the truth" - how were you sure that it was WindowBlinds that was causing the trouble? Isn't it possible that an interaction between WindowBlinds and software other than Windows was causing the trouble? Did you do a thorough analysis of the problem, sifting through Event Viewer logs, testing against the other software installed on your system and including regression testing against changed made by other software? Was this test performed on one system, or was there a wide varitey of systems and configurations to be used to verify that the problems you were having were solely caused by WindowBlinds and not an undesired interaction between WindowBlinds and other software installed on your system? Did you test your hypothesis that it was WindowBlinds alone that caused the problems that you claim were happening by the above-mentioned steps? Additionally, which versions of Windows and WindowBlinds was this, and had you installed any other "Windows Theme" software before installing WindowBlinds?

Those of us who are or have been professionals in the Software Development industry call the above steps as par for the course in what is called "Software Testing", and I'm pretty sure that Stardock does a fair deal of testing their software before it goes to market; if they didn't, vastly fewer people would be purchasing it on a regular basis, and there wouldn't even be the demand or desire to use it to the level that it would be a popular download via the usual "warez" channels.

Sure, warez'd copies are less likely to work I totally agree with you, but assuming that everyone who ever has problems must be pirating in some way is just laughable

Wait - didn't you claim that warez'ed versions of Windows have no changes in its contents?

"...the content of the files is exactly the same..."

and in virtually the next breath you state:

"...Sure, warez'd copies are less likely to work..."

Which is it? Are you saying that warez'ed copies of software are less likely to work? Why would they be less likely to work if all of the files were exactly the same as the actual non-warez software?

Based on your own logic, assuming that Stardock's products are inferior and plagued with problems, there would be a severe drop in sales of Stardock's products, along with a drastic drop in "warez" listings for Stardock products.

I really hate to sound like I'm grilling you on this, but as long as you are making claims about a software product's faults I'd personally like to see some backing info for your claim to see if the problems you experienced are fully and totally reproducable; anything else is pure conjecture and supposition if there isn't any backing data - sorry, but that's the Software Tester in me. :shifty:

--ScottKin

[Asdfgav]

I personally do not see why anyone cares about the "relationship" between Neowin and Stardock. Why does it really matter??

On a different matter...

Where was "an illegal copy of Windows" even mentioned in Pas' comments? He was speaking about "warez" copies of Stardock software. Is it that difficult to differentiate the two, or do you automatically think of "Microsoft Windows" when someone mentions "wares"? :blink:

yeah, frank, a vast majority of issues people have with stardock apps are because they've installed either a warez copy of the stardock app or the os.

Scott, for someone who claims to have tested so many products, I am quite shocked that you do not know that "OS" means operating system...

[Subject Delta]

Frank, please stay on topic. I have given multiple examples of how Neowin is better off since Stardock made us a Limited Liability Company in 2005, if you can give me any examples of how service has deteriorated or we have been used as a corporate mouthpiece then do so. I personally think you are just spouting off for the hell of it.

Oh, and Stardock has plenty of freeware software too, not that that has anything to do with Neowin.net, just a heads up.

I will say again, that Stardock gets less coverage on Neowin than most other news websites, a quick Google search of "WindowBlinds" turns up other websites and Neowin isn't even on the first search page, despite having a dedicated WindowBlinds forum and news coverage of their releases. I chose WindowBlinds because that is their most popular and well known (shareware) application.

Nice to see that you are trying to twist what I said and turn it against me, I would suggest you re-read my post again to suggest what it says, in the meantime I will try and re-iterate my points.

Firstly: I clearly stated 2 or 3 times that I thought that Neowin was none the worse for wear for having Stardock as a partner, so why are you trying to selectively pick out the bits of my post that you didn't like to try and make me look bad?

Secondly: I am well aware that Stardock make freeware, I clearly stated that I make use of Logon Studio (maybe a part of my postings that you somehow missed?)

Thirdly: I never once claimed that Stardock is trying to use Neowin as a corporate mouthpiece and I take offence to the fact that you appear to be accusing me of that. All that I stated was that I felt that it was more likely for you to listen to their wishes than create a divide and lose a large portion of your funding, and although you may not see the difference which is admittedly subtle, that was not the point I was trying to make.

Finally: You can believe what you want about me, but that doesn't make you right. I have generally tried to fit in here, it just seems strange that I am taking so much flak merely for expressing an opinion contrary to that of some Neowin staff members, is that against your rules or something?

Where was "an illegal copy of Windows" even mentioned in Pas' comments?

yeah, frank, a vast majority of issues people have with stardock apps are because they've installed either a warez copy of the stardock app or the os

[FxVisor]

I didn't know that they owned a part of the website. There's only a couple of forums on customization, why were they interested?

Anyway you can't expect this thread to make people like Stardock any better just because they paid you, if they paid me i'd be kissing their a*se too. :D

[Chicane-UK Veteran]

It's a sad state of the times that Neowin admins have to come here and JUSTIFY their partnerships with companies which help fund the very existence of Neowin against the really very clueless people who think they're entitled to everything on a silver platter. If you don't like how Neowin has raised some of it's backing, just damn well don't post here.

I've never had a problem with Stardock, never had a problem with Neowin, and never had a problem with any kind of partnership. Long may both continue.

[ScottKin]

I personally do not see why anyone cares about the "relationship" between Neowin and Stardock. Why does it really matter??

On a different matter...

Scott, for someone who claims to have tested so many products, I am quite shocked that you do not know that "OS" means operating system...

Asdfgav: It might be a good idea to read-through the entire thread before you make yourself look awfully foolish.

Now, please point out to me where you claming that I can't tell the difference between an OS and an Application? That should provide a good bit of humor for the thread. :rolleyes:

FYI: I was on the Kernel, API & Test Group in the Windows NT 3.1 DevTeam, an STE on a cancelled product desinged to be used on seat-back entertainment systems that were supposed to into the Boeing 777, using hardware designed by G. Marconi Information Systems. That's just a few of Microsoft products I've had a hand in as a contractor to Microsoft since 1991. If you want to go back even farther, how about MS Paint 1.0 using Microsoft's old "Mach" acceleration card for 8088 / 8086 systems, with a serial port for the first Microsoft Mouse - that goes back to 1987. I've used, maintained and managed Operating Systems that are older than most of the users here.

...Now, back to your regularly-scheduled program.

--ScottKin

[ScottKin]

It's a sad state of the times that Neowin admins have to come here and JUSTIFY their partnerships with companies which help fund the very existence of Neowin against the really very clueless people who think they're entitled to everything on a silver platter. If you don't like how Neowin has raised some of it's backing, just damn well don't post here.

I've never had a problem with Stardock, never had a problem with Neowin, and never had a problem with any kind of partnership. Long may both continue.

Sadly, Chicane, it's due to what I believe is a generally-sour world that we're living in - where suspcions run wild, where cynical people become heroes, and where everyone wants to think that there's a conspiracy around every door.

And on the "don't post here" comment - +1000000. To the collection of posters who want to do nothing but crap-stirring: no one is forcing anyone to be a member or to even post here, and there are hundreds of other forums on the net where your fellow simpletons and hapless twits can commiserate with your vapid cohorts.

'nuf said!

--ScottKin