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Source of news: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080...u-wish-for.html

Windows 7 in 2009? Be careful what you wish for

By Ken Fisher | Published: January 24, 2008 - 08:15PM CT

Take it as a sign that Windows Vista failed to capture the imagination of Windows users, or take it as a sign that sensationalism sells. Either way, the rumor mill is heating up with claims that the successor to Windows Vista—currently dubbed Windows 7—could be released as early as next year, as opposed to sometime in 2010, as currently expected.

Hypesphere: nothing to Gates' Windows 7 "next year" quote

GM still uses XP, and is considering "bypassing Vista"

Microsoft India takes over portion of Windows 7 development

Steve Ballmer: Windows Vista is a "work in progress"

The scuttlebutt (condensed): some users have seen early builds of Windows 7, including a poster at Neowin. Ars Technica has also seen an older build, as we told you about more than a month ago. A more recent build was reportedly described as Milestone 1. APC Magazine claims to have seen a roadmap which puts M2 in an April/May timeframe, and a M3 in the third quarter of this year. All of this points to a late 2009 release, they say, which is indicated by this "road map."

Arguing about whether or not Windows 7 will ship in late 2009 is pointless. No one can predict the future, and Microsoft's own history shows that its roadmaps and predictions are not to be trusted. A more interesting question is: should Microsoft be aiming for late 2009? Should the company be aiming at a date, or should it be aiming at an experience? To be sure, a software company can't develop without some kind of general timeframe. The question is what's most important: the date or the product?

Microsoft, please take your time

In its early days as Longhorn, perhaps the project was too ambitious. But once Microsoft rebooted Longhorn's development more than two years into the process, the company made a critical error: in a panic, it focused on when the product would ship, not when it would be ready.

Gates originally had it right. In the thick of Longhorn development problems in 2004, Gates tried to reassure everyone that the release would not become date-driven. To this day, it remains a literary classic to me (and, well, probably only to me):

This Is Not a Date-Driven Release

We have things where we say

The train is leaving on this date

Whoever has their act totally together

By that date the train will leave

And the train could have a lot of people on it

Or it could be

Fairly empty

—W.H. Gates III

Unfortunately, Vista did become date-driven, and even Gates seemed to admit that Vista shipped before it was ready when Gizmodo talked to him at CES this year. Admission or not, it's quite clear that things that were not "totally together" where included on the "shipping train," and that the departure time became more important than the quality of the release.

With Windows 7, Microsoft needs to deliver in a big way. I personally wouldn't call Windows Vista a bomb, but Microsoft has lost serious mindshare and respect in the many years since Windows XP, primarily on account of Vista. Vista will still sell well, if only because the momentum of the growing PC market will not allow otherwise. It does not appear that Vista is driving PC growth, however, and even among Vista fans, the mood is somber.

What's Microsoft to do? If you can't avoid a mistake, then you do the next best thing and learn from it. You don't want to move too quickly in an effort to fix your mistake, because you can end up making another, potentially costlier one. In Microsoft's case, the company can easily weather the trials and tribulations that Vista has brought it. But should the company release another operating system that fails to gain a critical, but positive reception, it will signal a true crisis for the company's desktop business. While Microsoft can't wait until 2012 to release a new version of Windows, it shouldn't be putting a shipping date before the need to make this release rock solid.

Of dates and timeframes

Once launched in a couple of weeks, it will have taken Microsoft about 16 months to deliver the first Service Pack for Windows Vista (Vista was released for businesses in November of 2006). A November 2009 release of Windows 7 would have afforded roughly 36 months of time between Vista and Windows 7, or a little more than twice the time consumed by Vista SP1 efforts. Sounds doable, eh? Keep in mind that a Windows 7 Milestone 3 in Q3 2008 leaves about a year for beta testing; by this time, the build should be very close to feature complete. As such, this would mean that Windows 7 would need to reach feature-complete status over the next nine months (or, within ~24 months of Vista being released to manufacturing).

There was once a time when Microsoft could accomplish quite a lot in such a short timeframe. Windows 98 was released in June 1998, and within only 40 months' time, Microsoft had released two major desktops OSes: Windows 2000 in February of 2000 and Windows XP in October of 2001. (Not to mention Windows ME in 2000, as well.) Sure, there were two separate teams involved back then, when there was a bifurcation between NT and the consumer desktop. The point is, Microsoft could do it back then, but I'd argue that company was a lot stronger then.

To regain its strength, Microsoft has to do two things. First, it cannot let Windows 7 ship without the spit and polish that Windows Vista didn't get. When time hasn't been spent on refining the experience, the rough edges come to annoy customers. Everything put in the OS needs to be ready for prime time, or be left out. That's not a timing issue, but a philosophical one. Related to this, Microsoft must therefore not bite off more than it can chew.

Second, and more importantly, Windows 7's milestones, beta process, and release to manufacturing should not be date-driven, but by the company determining what Windows 7 needs to be a truly worthy release. Rather than worry about Software Assurance customers, Microsoft needs to worry about righting its ship. If Windows 7 is a bomb, there won't be many Software Assurance customers left to worry about appeasing.

Windows 7 needs to bring with it the redemption of Microsoft. That, my dear reader, cannot and should not be rushed.

I agree it should not be date driven but quality control driven. However, I sometimes wonder if the consumer isn't the problem. It seems to me that any techie loves updating to the latest and greatest and when certain features are made public, the average techie begins to salivate. This grows until people are yammering for the release of the software. The best thing MS could do is be as discrete as possible to keep the hype down until it is released (a difficult thing to do). If it is a good product, then build the hype.

I agree it should not be date driven but quality control driven. However, I sometimes wonder if the consumer isn't the problem. It seems to me that any techie loves updating to the latest and greatest and when certain features are made public, the average techie begins to salivate. This grows until people are yammering for the release of the software. The best thing MS could do is be as discrete as possible to keep the hype down until it is released (a difficult thing to do). If it is a good product, then build the hype.

Exactly. Apple is not perfect but it sure runs better than Windows in many ways, especially against Vista. Microsoft knows they messed up on Vista big time and they are trying to get Windows 7 out the door ASAP to replace Vista - remember Windows ME? How it quickly got replaced with XP not even 1 year after it was released?

History repeats itself.

What?

Microsoft is planning to release Vista's successor 3 years after Vista. How is that them rushing to replace it ASAP?

Vista stinks whether you want to admit it or not. The truth is Vista is not what it was expected to be. It did not deliver and XP is a better OS. The tests results don't lie.

Vista stinks whether you want to admit it or not. The truth is Vista is not what it was expected to be. It did not deliver and XP is a better OS. The tests results don't lie.

actually MacOSX runs much worse than my previous laptop with Vista.

Apple Mail breaks a lot of emails (attachments are shows as base64 coding inside the email),

sometimes doesn't shutdown but just stuck there with only my background showing on the desktop,

applications crash more often than windows ones,

VPN sometimes works sometimes return a "MPE is required" and i have to delete all the info *apple* from the keychain and hope after a reboot that it works

wireless on my macbook pro (wireless N) doesn't work very well at home - in fact i've to plug in the lan cable - with my netgear wireless G router, my acer laptop works fine

Vista always worked (and before that XP too). i changed machine from a macbook to a macbook pro, with leopard fully upgraded, but actually still a lot worse than vista and xp...

Only good point i can give is that Keynote is an amazing application and that powerpoint is not getting any closer to it, fast and with amazing features.

BACK TO THE TOPIC

i agree that 3 years for a new OS are fair enough. and vista is working quite well, only issue is that some manufacturers don't have a good/stable drivers for it. but if you get them right, vista is blazing fast and stable. I don't think 2009 will be the release date of Win7, it still far away in alpha stage and for a new OS will need a long time to get it in beta and then in rtm... so i guess 3 years are enough, maybe delay to almost 4 is still normal.

MS shouldn't rush Windows 7 out the door simply because releasing a rushed OS is only going to damage them further, however, they can't take there time either as Vista proved doing that is just as fatal (although restarting the project half way through didn't help matters). What makes matters worse for MS is users/customers are going to be much more critical with Win7 and alot of them will be considering switching to Linux/OS-X, meaning Win7 not only needs to be better then Vista but needs to prove to be a better investment then a Mac or Linux based machine. My work for example is considering going pure Mac because of the disaster that was Vista (while I find Vista a great home OS, I have to admit it's not that crash hot in a business environment which is why my work is staying with WinXP) and if Win7 is no better then Apple got itself another customer. Are MS up to the challenge or is this the beginning of the end of Microsoft? only time will tell. This is purely my opinion and should be taken with a grain of salt.

Vista stinks whether you want to admit it or not. The truth is Vista is not what it was expected to be. It did not deliver and XP is a better OS. The tests results don't lie.

Nice how you didn't provide any hard evidence to back up this nonsense. XP is an inferior OS in every sense of the word. They need to scrap that pile of garbage before April 2009.

Nice how you didn't provide any hard evidence to back up this nonsense. XP is an inferior OS in every sense of the word. They need to scrap that pile of garbage before April 2009.

You do know how to do searches in Google don't you? Google has all the evidence you need.

If Vista is so bad, why you using it? (In your specs)

I don't use it anymore. I am using XP Pro. I haven't had a chance to change my Sig but now that you reminded me, and I have time, I might as well do it.

We all know where this is going.

Vista users will say Vista is the better OS. More features!

XP uses will say XP is the better OS. More speed!

Who gives a sh*t about someone else's opinion anyways. It's not like it'll make anyone switch to another OS.

Everyone is going to use the OS they like more.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Windows Vista and I certainly don't see anything wrong with releasing Windows 7 in 2009, which would make it about three years after Windows Vista RTM. Microsoft should be going back to the regular 3 year cycle, similar to 95, 98 and XP. Windows Vista only took so long because they restarted it from scratch and I for one prefer they did that rather than release an OS which would be more unstable than the Vista that we have now.

Scirwode

Vista is not a bad os. I have been using it since before launch and i have not had a single problem. I also switched to vista 64bit and thats even better.

I hope windows 7 is based off of 2008. Everything modular. They should have the installl done like in win 95 where you are given a check list and can pick what you want installed.

Have an option for a command prompt "CORE" setup like in 2008. Also make indexing more configurable. Make it use up less memory and it would be a great os.

I personally have no problem using Windows Vista, and I hope I don't have any problem using Windows 7 whenever it's released. I do occasionally go back to Windows XP but I must say, overall, Windows Vista is a better operating system. That's just my opinion. However, a 2009 release for an operating system that's supposed to succeed Windows Vista seems too early. I say Microsoft should release it when they feel it is complete. That's when it'll be a great, polished, and refined operating system.

I personally have no problem using Windows Vista, and I hope I don't have any problem using Windows 7 whenever it's released. I do occasionally go back to Windows XP but I must say, overall, Windows Vista is a better operating system. That's just my opinion. However, a 2009 release for an operating system that's supposed to succeed Windows Vista seems too early. I say Microsoft should release it when they feel it is complete. That's when it'll be a great, polished, and refined operating system.

I too was flicking back and forth, seemed to have settled on Vista since Sp3 has caused so many issues for people, I agree 2009 for a new OS already seems a little soon, but I have always felt Vista was a development OS a sort of step point, but saying that it's not a bad OS, not a great one just average.

XP stinks whether you want to admit it or not. The truth is XP is not what it was expected to be. It did not deliver and 2000 is a better OS. The tests results don't lie.

Vista stinks whether you want to admit it or not. The truth is Vista is not what it was expected to be. It did not deliver and XP is a better OS. The tests results don't lie.

Seven stinks whether you want to admit it or not. The truth is Seven is not what it was expected to be. It did not deliver and Vista is a better OS. The tests results don't lie.

:rolleyes:

XP stinks whether you want to admit it or not. The truth is XP is not what it was expected to be. It did not deliver and 2000 is a better OS. The tests results don't lie.

Vista stinks whether you want to admit it or not. The truth is Vista is not what it was expected to be. It did not deliver and XP is a better OS. The tests results don't lie.

Seven stinks whether you want to admit it or not. The truth is Seven is not what it was expected to be. It did not deliver and Vista is a better OS. The tests results don't lie.

:rolleyes:

Well put and entirely accurate.

Late 2009 isn't early actually, sure Vista took 5 years but other things got in the way, XP SP2 was one.

Don't forget Vista went RTM to business back in Nov 2006. It hit retail in January 2007. If win7 goes RTM in Nov 2009 then it's 3 years. Lots of work is already set in Vista, the major things like the new driver model and so on are things that won't change in Win7, or if they do very minor changes I'd guess.

Kernel, memory managment and overall performance stuff doesn't take 5 years to work on. And new features depending on scope don't either. Key is that the groundwork is already there with Vista and now Win2k8.

All this hogwash is a waste of our time

Windows 7 will be what it is when it's finished.

Assumptions lead to old hardware. Remember that kids.

But people love posting crap we've already heard! Come on, don't you? I hope not.

I haven't used a MS OS I didn't like (I never used ME,) but we all have unique experiences and I love how people ignore that and say 'this product sucks' or 'is awesome' because of theirs.

Personally I love Vista although I recognize it wasn't the best planned release they had, and has its weaknesses. There hadn't been significant change to Windows in a long time, and it needed to happen. Of course, change leads to confusion, confusion leads to problems...go figure.

So logic says this conversation was inevitable and I should just shut up and go talk in a topic that actually matters, but hey. Not like I have anything better to do right now. :)

I expect Windows 7 will be a better environment in general because it won't have as much in the way of new driver models and other systems, and obviously because they learned from the Vista release.

And we'll still be having this exact same conversation, one way or another.

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    • Sihoo Doro C300 Pro V2 Ergonomic Office Chair review: The Ikea of chairs by Steven Parker I've reviewed a few gaming chairs over the past three years or so and generally found them to score well in our reviews. SIHOO reached out asking if I was interested in taking a look at their flagship chair, the Doro C300 Pro V2. I never got the chance to check out its predecessor, but the V2 is described as an "Adaptive Ergonomic Chair." It became available to buy in April of this year. Let's get things rolling with a closer look at the specifications and features. Specifications Doro C300 Pro V2 Model Ergonomic Materials Mesh Back and Seat; Soft PU Coated Armrests Height adjustability 45.5 - 53 cm / 17.5" - 20.9" Seat (w+d) 52 x 43 - 47 cm / 20.5" x 16.9" - 18.5" (adjustable) Backrest 52 – 60 cm / 20.5" - 23.6" (adjustable) Lumbar support Mesh built-in (adjustable) Armrest adjustability 8D Bionic Armrests Rocking angle 105°, 120°, 135° (fixed) Neck support Mesh built-in (adjustable) Net weight 27.3 kg / 59.64 lbs Weight support 150 kg / 330 lbs Colors Black, White Warranty 5 years (upon registering) Price $499.99, $539.99 Introduction At first glance, it looks like a chair that in another life wants to be a Herman Miller; It certainly looks like my Aeron Remastered, but the Doro C300 Pro V2 has quite a few more features and costs quite a bit less. SIHOO says that it is made up of a "DynaCore" system that tracks your movement and synchronizes the headrest, backrest, lumbar support, and armrests as you shift, twist, or recline. They also say that the "SyncroFlex Backrest" molds to your spine, which kind of describes how the mesh fabric works in most ergonomic chairs, but anyway. Below are the meat and potatoes measurements for the chair. Here is the same tech sheet, but in inches. Durability I would be remiss to not talk about the various durability testing this chair underwent before coming to market, as this is claimed on the product page. First of all, the chair is BIFMA-, SGS-, and TÜV-certified. As for durability, the tests undergone were: 100,000 Castor cycles tested 120,000 Armrest cycles tested 120,000 Recline cycles tested 120,000 Gas lift cycles tested 60,000 Armrest durability cycles tested 120,000 Rotation cycles tested Nothing about weights testing, though. Now that's all disclosed, now onto my own personal findings. Assembly The Doro C300 Pro V2 came in two large boxes (1) (2), and everything was packed very well, protecting the different parts of the chair. In the box, there is a folded sheet that explains the 12 steps to assemble it; they are: Remove the bottom cover on the aluminum base; Insert the five legs into the aluminum base and use ten screws to fasten them; Insert the castors into the legs; Replace the bottom cover on the bottom of the aluminum base; Place the Class 4 Hydraulics gas cylinder into the aluminum base; Screw the bottom part of the arm rests, taking care of the orientation using two screws on each side; Use three torx screws to fasten the footrest to the bottom of the seat; Fasten the backrest to the seat using four torx bolts; Fasten the armrests to the backrest using four Torx bolts (two on each side), taking care to note the orientation; Place the chair onto the Class 4 Hydraulics gas cylinder; Insert the headrest into the top of the backrest; Use two torx screws to fasten the headrest to the backrest. There's also an online guide you can refer to. Carefully unpacking the two boxes took around 15 minutes because almost everything is wrapped in plastic and protective foam; the chair assembly itself took around an hour. I say in the above assembly steps to take note of the orientation, because it's not obvious which way around the bottom portion of the armrests go, and although there is an L and R on the bottom of the armrests, it also wasn't clear from the instructions which was actually left or right, facing the chair, or in the seated down orientation? Anyway, I ended up putting the bottom portions on the wrong sides, and after securing one of the armrests, I discovered that although it was on the correct side, the armrest base could rotate a full 360°, but not when bolted to the chair, so I had to remove it, rotate it, and then bolt it back on. Truly an Ikea experience! Also, to complicate things further, although all the parts are labeled from A to X (yes, that's 24 parts) unhelpfully, these letters do not appear on the parts themselves or the package with the bolts, screws, and washers. There's also a pair of protective gloves in the box, but I think they were made for much smaller hands than I have. Even my friend, who is 5.1, had difficulty putting them on. Once assembled, I needed to sit down. Anyway, as I said, it looks quite similar to my Herman Miller. And here is the back of it. If you look at the product page and on Amazon, it seems like a lot of thought has gone into the chair itself and what it's capable of, but there is no mention at all about the castors, and this is an area where I think the chair trips up quite quickly. I found it difficult to move the chair in any direction. I asked a friend who came to visit me earlier this week to test my findings, and she said that the wheels were "no good," so it definitely isn't just me. I am 6'2 myself and a big guy, I work from home and gained a few pounds from mostly staying in and the hell away from other people. However, the Doro C300 Pro V2 is rated for up to 150kg (330lbs), which in my case is used well within its max rating. Ergonomics The number of adjustments you can make, right up to setting it in nap mode — which I haven't fully tested yet — is what you'd expect from a premium chair. Yes, you can go up and down (max 7.5 cm adjustment), rock back and forth (with tilt adjustment), and lock the chair between three stages of 105°, 120°, 135°, which is not quite as flat as the AndaSeat I tested at 160°. Some thought has also gone into the "8D" armrests, too, which are cushioned but quite firm; you'll only know it if you press hard into the PU-covered tops, which give about half a centimeter, but it's enough to ensure your skin won't get awkwardly stuck to it in warmer (or sweatier) conditions. It almost feels like plastic and is very easy to keep clean. However, the armrest positions move far too easily, and I am not sure what that "elbow" function is. Maybe it is good for a short person with short arms, anyway, I never used it and kept it flat at all times. There are eight levels of adjustment for the armrests, they are: backwards, forwards, swing left/right, height up and down, tilt, and 360° rotation, which can be handy for desk clearance. As I said, the armrest pads shift far too easily, which could give off an ergonomic vibe, but who wants the armrest sliding when you are shifting weight? The height adjustability does lock into place when lifting and adjusting. Comfort This is ultimately what it boils down to at the end of the day, right? Quite a lot of reviews praise the comfort of this chair, and I don't disagree that the mesh seating is quite comfortable. I am used to the material from my daily Herman Miller. However, the backrest cannot be locked into place, and this is actually a feature; as you shift or recline yourself on the chair, the backrest moves with your body. It took some getting used to. The lumbar gives ample support, but I would have preferred an adjustable one built into the seat base, as this causes the backrest to move up and down at will. Again, as with my previous chair review, this chair is also rated for tall people, but nowhere in the product documentation does it say how tall. Being 6'2 myself, I'm happy to say that the backrest is tall and wide enough, and thought has been given to being able to adjust the neck rest, but as others have mentioned in their reviews, people as tall as 6.2ft is about the limit for the neckrest. Conclusion What I didn't like The footrest is rated for 15kg (33 lbs), which to me seems a bit light, and after looking online, it seems like a chair footrest for adults must be at least twice that rating. In all honesty, they are just hollow metal tubes, so it is not recommended to let a kid sit on them. I also feel like it doesn't really go out far enough for my height, so that kind of puts the dampener on me being able to use it regularly. I'll just have to continue to use my subwoofer as a footrest! I do not like the armrests being able to shift around as easily as they can, and they are a little too forward-positioned in the chair to comfortably sit close to my desk, because even in the lowest height position, they don't allow me to go under the desk like is possible with my Herman Miller. I also feel like this chair could have been delivered partially constructed, especially the armrests on the seat, and why the aluminum base wasn't already pre-constructed (without the castors) is baffling, considering it would have fit in one of the two boxes that way. The instructions also need to be clearer. On the pamphlet, there's an A to X listing (which is also used in the steps), but none of the physical parts use this lettering system! What I did like I'll be honest, I haven't used it for very long, just one week, and seating comfort is subjective after all! Any spills wiped straight off it, the stitching, and the lines look great, not a fray to be seen or stitch out of place. It looks kind of cool, too. My favorite feature of these seats is the nap mode. While you're not lying completely flat, it leans far back enough to make you easily doze off after a heavy gaming or working session. Overall, this chair offers plenty of comfort features. The MSRP does vary quite a bit depending on the region, at £549.99 in the UK, and €580 in Europe, and $599 before tax in the U.S. However, shipping is free, which is a bonus for such a heavy item. Is it worth it, though? At three years' warranty, I think it's a decent deal. Another firm out of Germany sent me a free replacement hydraulic gas spring for a chair that failed after almost four years, so it was well outside its two-year warranty. My advice is to always try, as you might have the same luck I did. If I could fault it at all, it would be the constant shifting of the armrests and backrest. Where to buy Although the footrest variant normally costs $539.99, it has been discounted to $469.99 on the official website in Black or White. In fact, the non-footrest variant is only $40 cheaper. On Amazon, it currently costs more at $499.99 links below. Sihoo Doro C300 Pro V2 for $469.99 (official website) Sihoo Doro C300 Pro V2 for $499.99 at Amazon US SIHOO provided a free sample without any review or pre-approval. Good to know This Amazon link is U.S. specific, and not available in other regions unless specified. We only use first-party seller links (at the time of article publishing); ensure that you purchase from a first-party seller link only. Check out Today's Deals on Amazon | or our recent tech deals. Become a Prime member (for Students or SNAP) via Neowin Get Prime Access - Prime for half price (for qualifying Medicaid, EBT, SNAP) Subscribe to Prime Video, Audible Plus, Music Unlimited or Kindle Unlimited via Neowin As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.
    • Making US citizens pay is a prominent tool? Joke of the week…
    • Price Drop: Save 86% on Microsoft Office 2021 Professional Plus lifetime digital license by Steven Parker Today's highlighted deal comes via our Apps + Software section of the Neowin Deals store, where you can save 86% on a lifetime license to Microsoft Office 2021 for Windows. This bundle is for families and small businesses who want classic Office apps and email. It includes Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Outlook, Teams, and OneNote. A one-time purchase installed on 1 Windows PC for use at home or work. Lifetime license for MS Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Outlook, Teams, & OneNote One-time purchase installed on 1 Windows PC for use at home or work Instant Delivery & Download – access your software license keys and download links instantly Free customer service – only the best support! Microsoft Office Professional 2021 (for Windows) includes: Microsoft Office Word Microsoft Office Excel Microsoft Office PowerPoint Microsoft Office Outlook Microsoft Office Teams Microsoft Office OneNote Microsoft Office Publisher Microsoft Office Access No faffing about with subscriptions, just classic apps that don't expire. Good to Know ONE-TIME PURCHASE INSTALLED ON 1 DEVICE Redemption deadline: redeem your code within 30 days of purchase Access options: desktop Full versions No subscriptions – no monthly/annual fees Version: 2021 Updates included* *Support for this version of Office ends on Oct 13, 2026 A lifetime subscription to Microsoft Office 2021 Professional normally costs $219.99, but this deal can be yours for just $29.97, that's a saving of $190. For full terms, specifications, and license info, click the link below. Get Microsoft Office Professional 2021 for just $29.97, or learn more Although priced in U.S. dollars, this deal is available for digital purchase worldwide. Support queries If you have queries or need support for any of the Neowin Deals, please use the contact form here. Neowin Deals are managed and sold by StackCommerce who represent Neowin on an affiliate basis. Why we post these deals We post these because we earn commission on each sale so as not to rely solely on advertising, which many of our readers block. It all helps toward paying staff reporters, servers and hosting costs. So for those that keep moaning and complaining, be thankful we're still online for you to even do that. Other ways to support Neowin Whitelist Neowin by not blocking our ads Create a free member account to see fewer ads Make a donation to support our day to day running costs Subscribe to Neowin - for $14 a year, or $28 a year for an ad-free experience Disclosure: Neowin benefits from revenue of each sale made through our branded deals site powered by StackCommerce.
    • The only reason I want to know where you from is because if you are not from the U.K, then why should you care what we in the U.K do or don't do? Racist I am not, I am fed up with the amount coming over here and feel they can come over here and think we need to support them. Do you know how much it costs this country to support these people coming over here? Even when we give them a place to live it is not good enough. We had a barge that was being used to house immigrants, oh but that was not good enough. A mate said to me at the time, when he was homeless, he would have been happy to live on the barge, instead of ending up sleeping on a bench on the beach. I am not scared to say what my family heritage is, unlike you who is scared to say where they are from or where they live. Father side U.S, mother side Wales, still have family living in the U.S. A mate who sadly died a few years ago, had a load of people from different races recording in his studio, I got on with all of them. Skin colour don't bother me, where they are from don't bother me. Religion don't bother me as long as they don't push it onto me and it is not crazy stuff. I am not religious. But if you are not living in the U.K, then why should you care if we are in the E.U or not? This the problem, too many people poking their noses into where it don't belong. But you believe what you believe, if you think I am racist, then be it, I really do not care. Just grow a pair
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