Mac OS X Snow Leopard Discussion

[giga Veteran]

I wouldn't compare it to dropping support of a P4. I would compare it to dropping support for 32-bit processors in general. P4 is a processor, not a platform :p

But I see your point though. I think we should wait and see what Apple is planning. Nothing official has been announced regarding PPC support.

Intel Core Duo is 32bit. G5s are 64bit. They're dropping the PPC platform.

[Cara Veteran]

Cara - so you work for Apple? When did you get a job there? I can remember you from way back in the early days of Neowin.

2 years, 2 months. : winks :

As for dropping PPC, as I've said before, keep in mind that even the last G5's are now reaching EOL (3 year AppleCare will be up be Jan of 2010 at the last of them) so it's about time to let PPC go and move forward. :) Yes, the G5's are awesome chips but they are now several generations old, you can't build the future while dragging the boat anchor of old technology behind you. Innovation comes at a price.

[Rudy]

i think it's a smart move to drop the PPC line (just like Windows 7 SHOULD be 64bit only....but it won't)

now too bad they can't move to 64bit only (since the first intel mac were 32bit :pinch:)

[Hurmoth]

Intel Core Duo is 32bit. G5s are 64bit. They're dropping the PPC platform.

I think you missed my point.

Coding for the 64-bit platform is very different than the 32-bit platform, same as coding for the PPC compared to the x86 platform.

Dropping PPC support for OS X will be as big as dropping 32-bit support for Windows. The P4s are really outdated, PPC processors are not.

[giga Veteran]

i think it's a smart move to drop the PPC line (just like Windows 7 SHOULD be 64bit only....but it won't)

now too bad they can't move to 64bit only (since the first intel mac were 32bit :pinch: )

Well I would also assume it's because of the existing drivers 32-bit drivers. Wikipedia explains this well:

Because device drivers in operating systems with monolithic kernels, and in many operating systems with hybrid kernels, execute within the operating system kernel, it is possible to run the kernel as a 32-bit process while still supporting 64-bit user processes. This provides the memory and performance benefits of 64-bit for users without breaking binary compatibility with existing 32-bit device drivers, at the cost of some additional overhead within the kernel. This is the mechanism by which Mac OS X enables 64-bit processes while still supporting 32-bit device drivers.

That's how Leopard just ships in just one version, but has full support for both 32/64-bit drivers and applications out of the box.

Proof in the pudding:

As you can see there, the Xcode universal binary supports 4 architectures right there (32-bit PPC, 64-bit PPC, 32-bit x86, 64-bit x86). But interestingly enough, Xcode is only one of the few x86_64 Apple applications in Leopard. Others include Chess (lol?), AU Lab, Quartz Composer:

I'm predicting that lots more first party applications from Apple will now contain both the i386 and x86_64 binaries in Snow Leopard.

[giga Veteran]

Take it as you will, but that Orchardspy.com site says the following:

While Snow Leopard is said to be fully 64-bit, as the screenshots show it will work on 32-bit (Core Solo and Core Duo) Intel processors. It will not be compatible with PowerPC, although Orchard Spy has learned that Apple is at this point continuing to churn out builds for PowerPC?but only internally.i>

So who really knows at this point until Apple says so themselves.

[Cara Veteran]

There is an internal 64-bit PPC build of 10.6. :)

[giga Veteran]

There is an internal 64-bit PPC build of 10.6. :)

What about a 32-bit PPC build?

[Cara Veteran]

What about a 32-bit PPC build?

Not to my knowledge. I believe they are phasing out the G4 series, it was started with Leopard being 867mhz+, I think that 10.6 will have no support for non-Intel 32-bit when it ships.

[Cadium]

Not to my knowledge. I believe they are phasing out the G4 series, it was started with Leopard being 867mhz+, I think that 10.6 will have no support for non-Intel 32-bit when it ships.

As long as it doesn't get split 32-bit/64-bit like Windows does, because that's one big pain in the butt.

[giga Veteran]

As long as it doesn't get split 32-bit/64-bit like Windows does, because that's one big pain in the butt.

Highly doubt it.

[Cara Veteran]

As long as it doesn't get split 32-bit/64-bit like Windows does, because that's one big pain in the butt.

I think it might, but when they do split 32/64 32 will be phased out. ;)

[Quillz]

Wouldn't make much sense to release a separate 32-bit/64-bit version of Snow Leopard as it'd be a step backward from Leopard, which supports both 32-bit/64-bit in the same release.

[Cara Veteran]

Wouldn't make much sense to release a separate 32-bit/64-bit version of Snow Leopard as it'd be a step backward from Leopard, which supports both 32-bit/64-bit in the same release.

It was sarcasm. :p

Apple has no intentions of releasing 32bit and 64bit versions of OS X, all versions going forward will be 64bit with 32bit emulation for Intel Core Duo and Core Solo processors. I do not know if the final decision has been made regarding 32bit PPC.

[giga Veteran]

It was sarcasm. :p

Apple has no intentions of releasing 32bit and 64bit versions of OS X, all versions going forward will be 64bit with 32bit emulation for Intel Core Duo and Core Solo processors. I do not know if the final decision has been made regarding 32bit PPC.

Emulation? Like Rosetta? I'm not seeing that.

I would think they would be running it natively through the 32bit kernel like they are now which can still take advantage of 64-bit applications and processes. I wouldn't think they would only support just one archicture (x86_64) so soon--that would break compatibility all the existing 32-bit drivers. (like how it is on Windows)

The Activity Monitor screenshot shows it right here where the 64-bit and 32-bit processes are running side by side, where I would assume through the 32-bit XNU kernel:

[duritz]

would snow leopard run on my iBook G4? If I recall it is a G4 2.2 Ghz.

[giga Veteran]

would snow leopard run on my iBook G4? If I recall it is a G4 2.2 Ghz.

We don't know. No concrete details as of yet.

[sanctified Veteran]

would snow leopard run on my iBook G4? If I recall it is a G4 2.2 Ghz.

As far as I remember the G4 top speed was 2.0ghz

Correct me if Im wrong.

[Cara Veteran]

giga, all good points which I'm going to try to get answers from the dev team on without raising too many flags that I'm asking. : winks :

Edit: Keep in mind those are Intel 32bit processes, I think they are only pulling PPC 32bit support...

[Xero]

Obsolete MY ASS. I hope that's a misprint or they change that requirement real soon. My G5 Quad is anything but $3500 worth of "obsolete" and there are a lot of people (not to mention institutions - libraries, schools, other organizations with limited budgets for IT resources) that are still running PPC-based systems for purposes that DO NOT NECESSITATE upgrading hardware.

This G5 may well be the last Mac I ever buy if they seriously are going to remove PPC support altogether. Leopard runs on goddamn G4s, and one year later they want to remove the entire architecture?

F**k you, Jobs. You and your "forward thinking goals" can blow me. At least I know Linux will always be an option.

Easy there killer. No one is forcing you to upgrade, besides Snow Leopard has no new features, 10.7 will be when you should bitch. Your acting like OS X is suddenly going to fail, Leopard is very good and so is Tiger. Quit throwing a hissy fit because you can't get the latest software.

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

If they drop PPC support (can't see why they would, binary size has little to do with install size), then it does screw over PPC users.

Sure leopard will still work, apps that require 10.6 won't. Leopard is great and all but you can't do everything with the base install, you need 3rd party applications for that.

[Cara Veteran]

If they drop PPC support (can't see why they would, binary size has little to do with install size), then it does screw over PPC users.

Sure leopard will still work, apps that require 10.6 won't. Leopard is great and all but you can't do everything with the base install, you need 3rd party applications for that.

Remember back when Apple killed Classic with 10.5...even for PPC users who technically could still run it... This was done for the greater good and to drive the transition to OS X... Killing 32bit PPC drives those old users to get onboard with Intel or a 64bit G5..

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

Classic was for software only, and what do you mean by driving people to use OS X?.

I'm not going to spend $1,000+ for a new computer just because they don't want to support my current one (for no other reason than not wanting to support my current one)

Edit: If there's a technical reason for dropping PPC, then fine, so far I haven't heard a valid technical reason (all the reasons I've heard haven't been valid and a majority make no sense)

[Cara Veteran]

Classic was for software only, and what do you mean by driving people to use OS X?.

I'm not going to spend $1,000+ for a new computer just because they don't want to support my current one (for no other reason than not wanting to support my current one)

Edit: If there's a technical reason for dropping PPC, then fine, so far I haven't heard a valid technical reason (all the reasons I've heard haven't been valid and a majority make no sense)

Which system do you have if I might ask? :)

Classic was the previous generations environment that was dragged along for quite some time, Apple decided to push the last few people using Classic to adopt OS X Coding and Applications by eliminating the option of using Classic. I have G4's but even I have to admit they are all very old and have had a killer life cycle.

[joyntkid]

No one is forcing you to upgrade, besides Snow Leopard has no new features, 10.7 will be when you should bitch.

They've just announced it, and it already has some new feature.

What makes you think they aren't gonna have larger new features by the time it is released?