official Team Fortress 2

[Nagisan]

Or alternatively, it could be part of the crafting system, there have been a few sightings of Valve employees with the generic weapons listed as Uncommon/Rare etc, so via crafting it could be the variable stat weapons Valve have been planning for a long time.

There is no evidence that it is variable stat items either, so that too is nothing but speculation. The variable stats that have been found in TF2 was only placed there after people suggested Valve was turning the game into World of TF2, they likely appeared as a way of Valve to mess with us and make us think they were adding random stat weapons. Do you have any idea how difficult it would be to create balanced random stats? Each bonus to a weapon would have to have some type of drawback to having that bonus, balancing all the possibilities would be nearly impossible in any quick amount of time, why do you think games (such as World of Warcraft) with stat systems generally have a few pieces of gear that are superior to all others? Because it would be way to difficult to balance the high-end gear in a way that makes it an option and not a direct upgrade over other pieces of gear. Also, looking at WoW, all high-end gear has set stats, because that is much easier to balance than random stat (green) gear.

Now, I am not saying they will not be doing this ever, but if they decide to do it I will be very surprised myself and many, many people will probably quit TF2 (according to the general reaction you get from the Steam forums about random stats).

[Blackhearted]

I doubt it, the TF2 team has been very adamant in the past that one of the goals of TF2 was to remove things that left you wondering who or what killed you, one of those things being grenades. While it is possible they have changed their stance, I do not think they would so quickly jump at the chance to give a single class grenades that go against one of their preliminary design goals of TF2.

A design goal they clearly lost right from the start. As a single class has had grenades from the start, albeit launched ones. That class was called the demoman.

[Nagisan]

A design goal they clearly lost right from the start. As a single class has had grenades from the start, albeit launched ones. That class was called the demoman.

I mentioned that from memory of the commentary I had heard ages ago when I first got TF2, here is a more exact statement:

6. Grenades

[Adrian Finol] One of the main changes between Team Fortress Classic and Team Fortress 2 was the removal of thrown grenades.

Most classes could carry a standard hand grenade along with a secondary grenade, tied more closely to the class. Team Fortress 2's focus on unique class roles led us to notice that the standard hand grenade was a more powerful combat decider than some of the primary weapons. This made the classes more similar in combat-not a desired effect. In addition, when we looked at some of Team Fortress Classic's map stalemates, they often resulted from large amounts of grenade spam. Two cases were particularly problematic: That of players throwing grenades repeatedly through doorways, hoping to kill any enemies who might be there, and players on the verge of death throwing all their grenades in rapid succession, hoping to get a kill after they die. Removing standard hand grenades made the game more fun almost immediately, especially for new players who were often confused as to why they died, when a grenade went off at their feet. When we examined the class-specific grenades, we found similar problems. Eliminating them from playtests gave us yet another boost in making the game more fun. Once we'd decided on removal, we analyzed each class to see what capabilities might have been lost as a result of the decision. In some cases we added other capabilities, where we felt a class had lost the ability to make some interesting decisions, related to its special grenade type.

Highlighted is the more important parts of the commentary, essentially they wanted to get rid of the ability for people to spam through doorways in hopes of getting lucky kills (such as the Demo still does today), or get rid of all their nades when they are close to death for the same reason (lucky kills).

Now, I agree in saying that the Demo still has this ability to try for lucky kills, but based on the games commentary they are not willing to go beyond the Demo by giving any other class grenades. So they didn't really lose their design goal (which was to remove thrown grenades from all classes) so much as they created only a single class who has access to nades (of any kind) so people had to play that class to use them. Going outside of that and giving nades to any other class besides the demo, would indeed be breaking one of their design goals.

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

eg:

http://www.tf2items.com/id/jlesamiz?time=1256852682

He has a syringe gun that shoots Jarate.

[Lewism]

Nice find :o I want one

[Denis W. Veteran]

What if some of you try to cheat to bump the numbers? We'll know.

Like this:

[spy beef]

Like this:

That can mess up your stats pretty quickly for soldier...

[sundayx Veteran]

Poor demos :(

[Athernar]

eg:

http://www.tf2items.com/id/jlesamiz?time=1256852682

Exactly what I was referring to! I was trying to remember the account but it was late so I gave up and went to bed.

[bolerodan]

That hurt too much to watch that demo slaughtering youtube video on the last page. *tear*.

<--Demo

[Nagisan]

That hurt too much to watch that demo slaughtering youtube video on the last page. *tear*.

<--Demo

Don't fret too much, Valve has already assured us that kill counts from servers like those are being ignored. And I am sure there are demo's out there doing it as well (killing soldiers en mass).

[Nagisan]

New numbers posted, the soldier is still 240,000 kills ahead.

Only about 20k ahead compared to last count, soldier seems to be slowing down on how quickly he is killing things but he is still gaining overall lead over the demo. Dont give up soldiers, only a few more days!

EDIT: Apparently the Saxton Hale and Poopy Joe comic pages have now turned from white, to brown. Valve hinting at something or has Poopy Joe simply been pooping too much?

Edited December 14, 2009 by mwpeck

[Yusuf M. Veteran]

Looks to me like they updated it to make it look more authentic, as an old comic book.

[Nagisan]

Looks to me like they updated it to make it look more authentic, as an old comic book.

Thats most likely but it was a quick and un-needed change IMO. Guess internet-based comic books age much faster than RL ones. :p

Also, heres a slight update on the crafting system: http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/3012/emailus.png

Basically, blueprints are found by putting the correct items into the crafting system and hitting the craft button. Basically they are there so you can later look at the formula of something you have already made.

The shovel was just temporary art for an internally tested item, you cannot craft default items.

Now, that doesn't mean the shovel was or was not an unlock for the soldier, it could have been temp art for the soldiers melee unlock until they finished it, but the icon itself was temporary and does not portray any specific item.

[Blackhearted]

A sword and shield for the demo? looks like it.

http://www.teamfortress.com/demomanupdate/

[Denis W. Veteran]

L4D2's charger for the demoman? :blink:

Weird, no soldier update yet.

[Nagisan]

L4D2's charger for the demoman? :blink:

Weird, no soldier update yet.

Solly will probably come tomorrow, then both classes will get their last weapon revealed Weds.

I personally am not quite sure how I feel yet about the sword and shield unlocks for the demo. I feel the shield is going to turn him into an insane close-combat machine, making him resistant to fire and explosions, but it also takes away his main tool in sentry removal. I mean, just equipping the shield reduces fire damage by half (effectively giving the demo 350 health vs any pyro, one of the main close-range classes) while reducing explosive damage by 65%, making him much more effective vs the soldier and other demos. The charge effect I hope to god its not another stun effect, from the sound of it, you have to attack while charging, if you hit while charging you get the bonus with the sword. The question is how will it work, will the shield always be equipped, giving you the ability to charge with either the nade launcher or your melee?

As for the sword, I am very surprised Valve did something like this (not so much the sword, but its effects). I get that the Demos health is lower than normal with it (how much of a drain though?), but with each kill, he gets MORE health and he moves faster (for how long?). He probably wont be able to get up to scout speed with his sword kills (or maybe thats the max, or possibly even faster?), but either way, a Demo with 50% fire reduction and 65% explosive reduction while being able to charge at you faster than a scout and fight you in close combat is going to be hell even with the health drop. Especially if he kills you because he just became stronger and faster against any other player in the area.

With those combined, it will be virtually impossible to escape a melee demo unless you run behind some sentries or something.

Willing to bet the charge part uses something like a cloak timer though, it drains at a certain speed until it runs out, then you must wait for it to recharge a certain % (like the DR) before using it again.

The other main question is how will the charge work, is it straight line only (requiring aim), or can you aim around while running at that high of a speed, if its the latter I personally think that might be a bit OP, make it impossible to run through a few hallways to get away from a charging demo.

Now, I do not play demo so I do not really care exactly how effective the weapons are, I just think its too much of a change for TF2, it is going from a game with mostly guns and a few melee weps, to a class that, if need be, can go full melee and virtually get inside any other classes safe zone before they can be killed. Time will tell how this change impacts TF2, and we shall see what other crazy ideas Valve had tomorrow and the two following days.

Edited December 15, 2009 by mwpeck

[Yusuf M. Veteran]

Interesting. I wonder what the Soldier will get now.

[Nagisan]

Interesting. I wonder what the Soldier will get now.

No idea, I had a hard time thinking of what the demo could get in place of his weapons, I personally feel Valve accomplished what they have been trying to do with these updates since Day 1, change the classes primary role (or at least change how the class is used). After seeing what they did to the Demo, I am personally interested in seeing what they have done for the Soldier. I hope they do not do a similar "melee kit" for the soldier, as it will feel like a rehash of the Demo's new unlocks. But at the same time I have a hard time imagining what they could do for the soldier.

[spy beef]

A sword and shield for the demo? looks like it.

http://www.teamfortress.com/demomanupdate/

WTF this isn't TF2 anymore.

Demo charging with a shiled is the stupidest idea ever next to the sandman.

[Yusuf M. Veteran]

No idea, I had a hard time thinking of what the demo could get in place of his weapons, I personally feel Valve accomplished what they have been trying to do with these updates since Day 1, change the classes primary role (or at least change how the class is used). After seeing what they did to the Demo, I am personally interested in seeing what they have done for the Soldier. I hope they do not do a similar "melee kit" for the soldier, as it will feel like a rehash of the Demo's new unlocks. But at the same time I have a hard time imagining what they could do for the soldier.

Me too. I would've never guessed a "melee kit", as you said. I hope the Soldier doesn't get something similar. In my opinion, more variety means more fun otherwise it's plain boring.

[Minifig]

WTF this isn't TF2 anymore.

Demo charging with a shiled is the stupidest idea ever next to the sandman.

The sandman is great.

And I think this is great too.

They're trying to get people to get up and personal with the classes, and these weapons work!

[Soldiers33]

i hope the soldier update wont be as rubbish. Thank god i dnt play as demo.

[Minifig]

I like how everyone ignores how the paper says "Easiest Class"..

Ie: The paper saying that the soldier is the easiest class :laugh:

[Denis W. Veteran]

^ You do realize what the newspaper's title now reads... right? :whistle:

(to be honest, I didn't notice any of that until now.)

edit: Oh, there's some demoman comics. Hmm... didn't the demoman lose both his parents as a young kid to some explosion he set off? So why is his mom - ah, never mind.

edit 2: And the third unlockable is the Scottish Res-something.

Edited December 15, 2009 by rm20010