Team Fortress 2

By MikeFu84
in PC Gaming

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Grand Master

Nagisan

Posted
Posted

Bout time trading is on its way. Wonder what the new game mode is, also, Robin joked about Facestabs being something the new knife CAN'T do, I wonder if they finally fixed true facestabs (that is, where you can run backwards facing a spy, the spy can run forwards facing your face, and get a backstab on you).

As nice as it will be to finally have trading (and the polycount items), its probably a few months away given that they just now teased us with that info.

Veteran

Athernar

Posted
Posted

Bout time trading is on its way. Wonder what the new game mode is, also, Robin joked about Facestabs being something the new knife CAN'T do, I wonder if they finally fixed true facestabs (that is, where you can run backwards facing a spy, the spy can run forwards facing your face, and get a backstab on you).

As nice as it will be to finally have trading (and the polycount items), its probably a few months away given that they just now teased us with that info.

Doubtful as they've actually fixed facestabs before, but because all the crappy Spies couldn't get their cheap (Run at you swinging the knife as if they were a W+M1 derp Pyro) kills they whined about it being "liek da w0rts nerf evar" and Valve either rolled the changes back or made more changes that made the problem worse than before.

--

I do wonder how Valve will implement trading though; I can see a whole new facet to the community being born if it was done in-game (Trading servers/maps anyone?), but an out of game system would be awesome if opened up with a WebAPI. (Although it would be nice if they finished the ones they've already released too)

Grand Master

Nagisan

Posted
Posted

Doubtful as they've actually fixed facestabs before, but because all the crappy Spies couldn't get their cheap (Run at you swinging the knife as if they were a W+M1 derp Pyro) kills they whined about it being "liek da w0rts nerf evar" and Valve either rolled the changes back or made more changes that made the problem worse than before.

Valve has never fixed facestabs, they fixed facestabs caused by lag compensation, facestabs caused by buggy hitboxes have always been there. Unfortunately, to fix the facestabs caused by lag compensation, they had to reduce the backstab angle down to around where the BackBurner gets its crits at (which is only fair IMHO, as the backburner should have the same exact angle of effectiveness as the knife as they both target the back).

Spies complained because they could no longer sidestab and what not due to the fix, so Valve reverted it.

Facestabs due to a spy running straight at a person while that person is facing them, has never been fixed, so hopefully they found a way.

Veteran

Athernar

Posted
Posted

Valve has never fixed facestabs, they fixed facestabs caused by lag compensation, facestabs caused by buggy hitboxes have always been there. Unfortunately, to fix the facestabs caused by lag compensation, they had to reduce the backstab angle down to around where the BackBurner gets its crits at (which is only fair IMHO, as the backburner should have the same exact angle of effectiveness as the knife as they both target the back).

Spies complained because they could no longer sidestab and what not due to the fix, so Valve reverted it.

Facestabs due to a spy running straight at a person while that person is facing them, has never been fixed, so hopefully they found a way.

Facestabs have always really been an issue of lag compensation, it's ultimately the same issue as getting hit still after running behind a corner. Just the problem is more pronounced as the knife is a insta-kill.

There is always going to be fringe cases where facestabs will happen due to lag compensation, there's not much that can really be done to change that. The problem is as you mentioned though, the "back" angle. The Spy is an already powerful class if played properly, he doesn't need a 359 (Silly, but sometimes it feels like it) degree "back"stab angle.

Personally I think the original "fix" was fine, the knife is supposed to grant an instant kill for getting a BACKstab. Back does not equal side. The crappy Spies that whined about it should either play another class or learn how to use the Revolver.

</rant>

Grand Master

Nagisan

Posted
Posted

Facestabs have always really been an issue of lag compensation, it's ultimately the same issue as getting hit still after running behind a corner. Just the problem is more pronounced as the knife is a insta-kill.

There is always going to be fringe cases where facestabs will happen due to lag compensation, there's not much that can really be done to change that. The problem is as you mentioned though, the "back" angle. The Spy is an already powerful class if played properly, he doesn't need a 359 (Silly, but sometimes it feels like it) degree "back"stab angle.

Personally I think the original "fix" was fine, the knife is supposed to grant an instant kill for getting a BACKstab. Back does not equal side. The crappy Spies that whined about it should either play another class or learn how to use the Revolver.

</rant>

I do not think the legit facestab issues are due to lag compensation, you can run backwards with a spy running towards you, both facing each other, and he can still get a backstab, with your back NEVER facing the spy. Lag compensation facestabs happen when you turn quickly and the backstab gets lag compensated because the spy backstabbed you before you turned, but on your screen you were already turned (which is the same as getting shot around corners).

Veteran

Athernar

Posted
Posted

I do not think the legit facestab issues are due to lag compensation, you can run backwards with a spy running towards you, both facing each other, and he can still get a backstab, with your back NEVER facing the spy. Lag compensation facestabs happen when you turn quickly and the backstab gets lag compensated because the spy backstabbed you before you turned, but on your screen you were already turned (which is the same as getting shot around corners).

Both are actually lag compensation related, the "W+M1 Spy" example is caused by said Spy being lag compensated through you. While it appears he stabbed you in the face, he actually "phased" through your hitbox and hit the back/rear.

If the actual hitboxes themselves were "buggy" so to speak, then I imagine you'd be able to reproduce the circumstances while stationary.

Grand Master

Nagisan

Posted
Posted

Both are actually lag compensation related, the "W+M1 Spy" example is caused by said Spy being lag compensated through you. While it appears he stabbed you in the face, he actually "phased" through your hitbox and hit the back/rear.

If the actual hitboxes themselves were "buggy" so to speak, then I imagine you'd be able to reproduce the circumstances while stationary.

You are misunderstanding how lag compensation works. All lag compensation does is rewind the action in the game to match up the time the player clicked their mouse with where everyone was at that time. If the server "rewinds" the game to check if the lag compensated player hit the enemy, both models are moved back to where they were at the time.

For what you said to be true, the spy would have to temporarily move behind the player that is running backwards for him to "phase" through the enemy. Lag compensation rewinds the state of the game to see what the attacker was seeing. That means if the spy was seeing the enemies face, then the server is now seeing that you are seeing the enemies face (which by all logic makes it impossible to get a backstab). The problem is the server for whatever reason has a bug that sometimes causes it to ignore this, or to think that the victim is facing away from the spy (instead of towards the spy, like BOTH players saw). It may have to do with lag compensation, but it is an entirely different issue than facestabs where the SPY sees the enemies back but the enemy sees the spy as well.

The normal facestabs are like if a sniper shoots you "after" you run behind a wall which are caused by basic lag compensation. The rare and bad facestabs would be like if a sniper shoots your foot and it counts as a headshot which could be caused by lag compensation, but wouldn't happen under normal circumstances without the underlying bug.

Grand Master

Nagisan

Posted
Posted

Doesn't help a ton to explain why true facestabs are (while rare) apparently difficult to fix. Though it does help to explain why lagstabs (that is, you saw the spy on YOUR screen, but he saw your back on HIS screen) happen.

Veteran

Athernar

Posted
Posted

You are misunderstanding how lag compensation works. All lag compensation does is rewind the action in the game to match up the time the player clicked their mouse with where everyone was at that time. If the server "rewinds" the game to check if the lag compensated player hit the enemy, both models are moved back to where they were at the time.

For what you said to be true, the spy would have to temporarily move behind the player that is running backwards for him to "phase" through the enemy. Lag compensation rewinds the state of the game to see what the attacker was seeing. That means if the spy was seeing the enemies face, then the server is now seeing that you are seeing the enemies face (which by all logic makes it impossible to get a backstab). The problem is the server for whatever reason has a bug that sometimes causes it to ignore this, or to think that the victim is facing away from the spy (instead of towards the spy, like BOTH players saw). It may have to do with lag compensation, but it is an entirely different issue than facestabs where the SPY sees the enemies back but the enemy sees the spy as well.

The normal facestabs are like if a sniper shoots you "after" you run behind a wall which are caused by basic lag compensation. The rare and bad facestabs would be like if a sniper shoots your foot and it counts as a headshot which could be caused by lag compensation, but wouldn't happen under normal circumstances without the underlying bug.

No, I don't think I am. I think you're actually taking an oversimplified view of the situation, based more on reasoning between a single client/server relationship; Do not forget that interpolation will also be a factor.

I simply do not see any other sensible explanation for the cause of facestabs considering how easily they are reproduced, nor does it make sense to me personally that hitboxes themselves are somehow "bugged". The whole matter seems totally illogical, which is the hallmark of these sorts of interpolation/lag compensation issues.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Grand Master

giantpotato

Posted
Posted

Facestabs are not caused by lag compensation. From what I understand it's caused by hitting the 'back' of the hitbox from the front. Since the hitbox is not the same as the player model. You can't move 'though' the player model but you can move 'through' the hitbox, so if you stab in exactly the right place your arm is going to go though the front of the hitbox and a hit is going to be registered on the back of the hitbox registering a kill.

Mentor

Lewism

Posted
Posted (edited)

Ultimate TF2 Rage.

It is very NSFW but sooooo funny.

"I ****ing play Heavy! I demand at least one to two medics on me at all****ing times!" ChoZo

In this video, a player records the audio of his teammate, ChoZo, having a total rage meltdown while playing as the team's only Heavy, with a helpful F-bomb count added to the bottom of the screen.

Highlights:

* "BONESAW IS READY."

* "I'm like ****ing Emperor Palpatine. UNLIMITED POWER!"

* "This isn't strawberry. It's RAWBERRY!"

* One minute in, when he's whining about losing, a teammate starts playing sad violin music.

* "I know kung fu."

* "ULTIMATE NERD RAGE!"

* "dut dut dut dut dut dut that's the sound of my ****ing gun!"

* "Nice job, ChoZo." / "Nice job? More like GREAT ****ING JOB."

Edited by GreyWolf
Changed embedded media to link - watch NSFW in stills!
Grand Master

Doli

Posted
Posted

Ultimate TF2 Rage.

It is very NSFW but sooooo funny.

"I ****ing play Heavy! I demand at least one to two medics on me at all****ing times!" ChoZo

In this video, a player records the audio of his teammate, ChoZo, having a total rage meltdown while playing as the team's only Heavy, with a helpful F-bomb count added to the bottom of the screen.

Highlights:

* "BONESAW IS READY."

* "I'm like ****ing Emperor Palpatine. UNLIMITED POWER!"

* "This isn't strawberry. It's RAWBERRY!"

* One minute in, when he's whining about losing, a teammate starts playing sad violin music.

* "I know kung fu."

* "ULTIMATE NERD RAGE!"

* "dut dut dut dut dut dut that's the sound of my ****ing gun!"

* "Nice job, ChoZo." / "Nice job? More like GREAT ****ING JOB."

At 1:10 Recruit's violin music haha.

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