New Bungie Game Incoming?

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Grand Master

magik

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The Pieces are Coming Together. Over the past few days, there have been rumors that a new Halo game will be announced at next week's E3 and today we have enough clues to believe the rumors are indeed true. First, Kotaku discovered that in Bungie's latest podcast, Brian Jarrard and Luke Smith teased about something being revealed at E3.

Brian: Isn't there something going on on July 14th or something like that?

Luke: Yeah, around then.

Brian: Somehow that's sticking in my head for some reason. Guess we'll have to see.

Luke: Yep, we'll just have to be patient. Who could say?

Furthermore, the I Love Bees web site has resurfaced today, leading us to believe that there's definitely something going on.

TeamXbox

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Grand Master

spenser.d

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Hopefully they will announce a game that will actually hold my interest a little more than Halo 3 did. It wasn't just COD 4 that pulled me away, just the fact that it didn't seem at all like Halo 2's MP that I had grown to love.

:blink:

That's an interesting thing to say. I don't think I could go back to H2's MP very easily, though not to say it isn't great. I love H3's MP much more.

Maybe some other Microsoft hotshot is going to be getting a tattoo ;)

-Spenser

Grand Master

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:blink:

That's an interesting thing to say. I don't think I could go back to H2's MP very easily, though not to say it isn't great. I love H3's MP much more.

Maybe some other Microsoft hotshot is going to be getting a tattoo ;)

-Spenser

I guess after spending countless hours with my friends on it, I had high expectations about Halo 3 (along with millions of others). I think some of it had to do with the slow multiplayer action when I compare it to something like COD 4. I wanted something faster paced, but was extremely let down.

Grand Master

spenser.d

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I guess after spending countless hours with my friends on it, I had high expectations about Halo 3 (along with millions of others). I think some of it had to do with the slow multiplayer action when I compare it to something like COD 4. I wanted something faster paced, but was extremely let down.

Well I can't speak from experience as I've never played CoD4 online, but most games of Halo 3 I play online are pretty fast paced, in my opinion so I'm not sure what you mean by that. Those millions of others can't be too let down though - there's still 750,000 unique players playing Halo 3 online every day. I had pretty high expectations for Halo 3 and they were pretty well met for me. But that's just me. This is all a bit OT though so I'll let it go.

What I will say is that it probably won't be a Halo game. It might tie in to the Halo Universe (such as how Halo tied into the Marathon Universe), but it's not going to be a Halo 4.

-Spenser

Grand Master

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Well I can't speak from experience as I've never played CoD4 online, but most games of Halo 3 I play online are pretty fast paced, in my opinion so I'm not sure what you mean by that. Those millions of others can't be too let down though - there's still 750,000 unique players playing Halo 3 online every day. I had pretty high expectations for Halo 3 and they were pretty well met for me. But that's just me. This is all a bit OT though so I'll let it go.

I would really recommend it then. You will learn quickly what I mean by Halo being slow paced. I guess I just look it as another company figured out how multiplayer should work and that was evident by the fact that COD 4 knocked Halo 3 off the top of the chart for several weeks easily.

magik: You mentioned my favorite word..."campers". The word crops up in any game but is used so loosely practically everybody is a camper (apparently :p). I never find myself using the word because it has no meaning to me. Getting kills in an enemy base is just that, getting kills. If there are too many people in the enemy base, they respawn elsewhere. The fact that you are constantly killed by campers slays me because you could call anybody a camper.

Not sure what you mean by the respawn comment, they are both nearly instantaneous and get you back into the action quick.

Grand Master

spenser.d

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I would really recommend it then. You will learn quickly what I mean by Halo being slow paced. I guess I just look it as another company figured out how multiplayer should work and that was evident by the fact that COD 4 knocked Halo 3 off the top of the chart for several weeks easily.

I'll pass. I played with a friend locally once and it was alright. It gave me the feel of CS:S, which I love and have played a lot of. I'm sure it's a great game, but I already own plenty of shooters and like I said, Halo 3 does the trick for me in MP. I'm a Halo/Bungie fanatic - it'd be hard for Bungie to disappoint me with a Halo game.

Also, while CoD4 did knock Halo off the number one spot, the number of people playing Halo every day never decreased by very much.

-Spenser

Grand Master

magik

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magik: You mentioned my favorite word..."campers". The word crops up in any game but is used so loosely practically everybody is a camper (apparently :p). I never find myself using the word because it has no meaning to me. Getting kills in an enemy base is just that, getting kills. If there are too many people in the enemy base, they respawn elsewhere. The fact that you are constantly killed by campers slays me because you could call anybody a camper.

Campers as in people will stay in one spot and wait for people to cross their scope. It happens frequently in CoD4 and it is extremely rare in Halo 3. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with 'camping', no matter your definition, what I'm saying is that due to the existence and abundance of 'campers' in CoD4, I find it surprising that you feel it is a faster paced game.

Grand Master

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I'll pass. I played with a friend locally once and it was alright. It gave me the feel of CS:S, which I love and have played a lot of. I'm sure it's a great game, but I already own plenty of shooters and like I said, Halo 3 does the trick for me in MP. I'm a Halo/Bungie fanatic - it'd be hard for Bungie to disappoint me with a Halo game.

Also, while CoD4 did knock Halo off the number one spot, the number of people playing Halo every day never decreased by very much.

-Spenser

Are you serious? I'd pass too if I only had the option of playing locally. That is just a plain joke and it pains me to hear you had to suffer through that. If you ever want to play a real match, give me a call and we can get you online. :p

I'll see if I can find those numbers, but I think COD 4 numbers have been pretty consistent as well. I mean from the first week to now, its not like it has dropped in and out of the top 5, it has been right there with Halo 3 when its not beating it.

As you said, if you like Bungie that is fine. I am no way trying to convince you to play another game, just trying to give you impressions that you might otherwise would have never heard.

magik: Ah, you mentioned the other thing I forgot to say. People complain about campers not moving and that is the key. If they don't move and stay scoped on one tiny spot then you are in a perfect position to kill them. People complain about "campers" because they don't know how to kill them or don't bother to and try to go on with the game.

If you are trying to look it as Halo 3 barely has it, I disagree. Teams force the enemy to spawn in certain locations by pushing them across the map, thus making them easier to kill. Many people's definition of camping right there.

I just see COD 4 as faster paced because there is much more going on, more kills, and more communication needed for a successful victory.

By the way, may I ask what modes you frequented?

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Mikee99

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My biggest complaint about Halo 3 is the same as Halo 2: Matchmaking

I know that lots of people like it, however, I absolutely despise it! I am a traditionalist as I love server browsers. The lack of such feature in Halo 2 and 3 has really soured my experience. I don't want to play what Bungie thinks I should play, I want to make that decision!

And don't give me the "keep an up to date friends list" BS! That is not a good solution to the problem, and most people don't join your customs anyway.

It also disappoints me greatly that they did promise to add this feature into Halo 3 with XBL Public. Of course, that was scrapped. I also don't want to hear the excuse of it being too difficult to implement. SQL is more than capable of providing the solution, and MS makes the software for it!

To make matters (for me) even worse, I find that the maps in Halo 3 are very much so inferior to those in Halo 2 (with the exception of the re-made maps). Then, in some maps, they spawn you with an Assault Rifle, a short range weapon, in maps such as Sandtrap, which is a long range map. And they do this without providing you with a sidearm. So basically, it's the same balancing issue that plagued Halo 2: everyone just looks for the best weapons, and the people who obtain them usually win.

I also completely agree with Mystic that the gameplay is very slow. It almost puts me to sleep.

Unfortunately (for me), Bungie's matchmaking-only/no server browser (nazimatch) system has spread like a disease to many great games on the 360. It's also that reason why I have not, nor will I, purchase COD4 (360 version).

It's because of matchmaking why I have become more of a PC gamer now. PC's have free online, server browsers, dedicated servers, and mods. It's also because of matchmaking why I downgraded my XBL account from Gold to Silver.

Although, I am curious to see what new material Bungie can come up with, as Halo has pretty much consumed their development for the last few years.

Grand Master

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Mikee I didn't want to quote you because that would just be huge and unnecessary but here's my point. Consoles are generally geared more towards less hardcore gaming which can be found on the PC. With a more casual base, simpler systems had to be implemented in many multiplayer games so that players could easily get into games without having to select from a million different servers with many choices. I think in that way Bungie, Infinity Ward, etc. have found success and will continue to make multiplayer in a matchmaking way.

I am not saying one way is better than another, but look what it has done to the console market. :p

Grand Master

magik

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magik: Ah, you mentioned the other thing I forgot to say. People complain about campers not moving and that is the key. If they don't move and stay scoped on one tiny spot then you are in a perfect position to kill them. People complain about "campers" because they don't know how to kill them or don't bother to and try to go on with the game.

If you are trying to look it as Halo 3 barely has it, I disagree. Teams force the enemy to spawn in certain locations by pushing them across the map, thus making them easier to kill. Many people's definition of camping right there.

I just see COD 4 as faster paced because there is much more going on, more kills, and more communication needed for a successful victory.

By the way, may I ask what modes you frequented?

I never mentioned any complaints about camping, nor did I complain about campers myself. I was just saying that, due to the existence and abundance of campers in CoD4, it is inherently a slower paced game. I don't see how you can say Halo 3 has campers as it's very very rare to find the same person in the same spot more than once throughout a game. People are constantly moving and the speed of player movement and the existence of the motion sensor ensures that people won't be able to camp one spot for too long.

What modes I frequent in CoD4? I'll frequently play them all, but I guess I would say the majority is Team Deathmatch, Assault and Headquarters (I think those are the names, can't recall exactly).

Grand Master

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I never mentioned any complaints about camping, nor did I complain about campers myself. I was just saying that, due to the existence and abundance of campers in CoD4, it is inherently a slower paced game. I don't see how you can say Halo 3 has campers as it's very very rare to find the same person in the same spot more than once throughout a game. People are constantly moving and the speed of player movement and the existence of the motion sensor ensures that people won't be able to camp one spot for too long.

What modes I frequent in CoD4? I'll frequently play them all, but I guess I would say the majority is Team Deathmatch, Assault and Headquarters (I think those are the names, can't recall exactly).

Maybe you missed what I posted before

If you are trying to look it as Halo 3 barely has it, I disagree. Teams force the enemy to spawn in certain locations by pushing them across the map, thus making them easier to kill. Many people's definition of camping right there.

If you don't see it that way, I guess I think back to many matches on the small Jungle stage in which one teams stays on the same side of the map for the whole game.

I'm confused though when you said somebody won't be able to camp that long with motion sensing. COD 4 one ups that with a map that shows where fire is coming from, adds a kill cam to see where somebody is firing from, or just plain shows you where a person is if they are "camping". If they are moving and you know where they are but don't bother killing them, I don't see how one can comment.

Did you mean Domination instead of Assault? If you ever played that game type, camping is very hard to come by. The battlefield is always changing as the enemy captures different points so its hard to camp in an area where there once was people, but aren't anymore because the landscape changed so to say.

Community Regular

Mikee99

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Mikee I didn't want to quote you because that would just be huge and unnecessary but here's my point. Consoles are generally geared more towards less hardcore gaming which can be found on the PC. With a more casual base, simpler systems had to be implemented in many multiplayer games so that players could easily get into games without having to select from a million different servers with many choices. I think in that way Bungie, Infinity Ward, etc. have found success and will continue to make multiplayer in a matchmaking way.

I am not saying one way is better than another, but look what it has done to the console market. :p

I understand that, but they should still provide an option for those who don't want it.

Really, that would be ideal: A dual-system approach (like COD 3), where you have matchmaking (both ranked and non-ranked) as well as a non-ranked server browser that allows players to join in-progress games.

With that, you can have your cake and eat it too!

Grand Master

spenser.d

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I understand that, but they should still provide an option for those who don't want it.

Really, that would be ideal: A dual-system approach (like COD 3), where you have matchmaking (both ranked and non-ranked) as well as a non-ranked server browser that allows players to join in-progress games.

That would split the population up and potentially destroy the point of MM - getting people into a game with those their skill level, and doing it in a short amount of time. To do that, you need a ton of people playing through MM.

MM is popular in consoles now because the system that builds your skill based on how you play is built into Xbox Live itself and into your Gamertag. It's called TruSkill and was created at Microsoft Research and takes into account a combination of a lot of things. As it's built into XBL, it's easy to implement for the developers if they just do MM.

@Slane - you're one of few who think that, as witnessed by the fact that Halo is the flagship franchise for the Xbox division because most people do like it. There will be more Halo games, whether developed by Bungie or not.

-Spenser

Grand Master

acies

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So basically, it's the same balancing issue that plagued Halo 2: everyone just looks for the best weapons, and the people who obtain them usually win.

I disagree, no single weapon can dominate that easily without the player being very good. And that's what I love about Halo: the balancing is near perfect, from my experience.

I also completely agree with Mystic that the gameplay is very slow. It almost puts me to sleep.

I'd agree that Halo is generally a slower game than COD4, but I certainly wouldn't call it a "slow game". And I can't imagine you'd fall asleep from it, are you sure everyone else didn't just leave? :pinch:

Unfortunately (for me), Bungie's matchmaking-only/no server browser (nazimatch) system has spread like a disease to many great games on the 360. It's also that reason why I have not, nor will I, purchase COD4 (360 version).

It's because of matchmaking why I have become more of a PC gamer now. PC's have free online, server browsers, dedicated servers, and mods. It's also because of matchmaking why I downgraded my XBL account from Gold to Silver.

Matchmaking is not that bad at all. In fact, I think it's brilliant. If there was server browsing(which would be nice) I'd probably still use matchmaking a majority of the time. Hell, it's defiantly no reason to avoid COD4 on Xbox360.

Grand Master

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That would split the population up and potentially destroy the point of MM - getting people into a game with those their skill level, and doing it in a short amount of time. To do that, you need a ton of people playing through MM.

MM is popular in consoles now because the system that builds your skill based on how you play is built into Xbox Live itself and into your Gamertag. It's called TruSkill and was created at Microsoft Research and takes into account a combination of a lot of things. As it's built into XBL, it's easy to implement for the developers if they just do MM.

-Spenser

I agree with you about splitting the population up, that was what I was just about to get to.

I haven't heard about that TruSkill aspect and I'm confused how it would work. In a game like Halo 3, you are matched up with players near your skill levels so that TruSkill thing makes sense. In a game like COD 4, that system is absent as you are matched up randomly.

Grand Master

spenser.d

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I agree with you about splitting the population up, that was what I was just about to get to.

I haven't heard about that TruSkill aspect and I'm confused how it would work. In a game like Halo 3, you are matched up with players near your skill levels so that TruSkill thing makes sense. In a game like COD 4, that system is absent as you are matched up randomly.

It might look random, but it's not. You have a 'skill level' when going into MM in CoD4, whether it's displayed or not.

TrueSkill

TrueSkill[23] is a ranking and matchmaking system premiering in the xbox 360 live services. Developed at Microsoft Research Cambridge (England), the TrueSkil ranking system is now used in over 150 titles for the xbox 360. It uses a mathematical model of uncertainty to address weaknesses in existing ranking systems such as ELO. For example, a new player joining million-player leagues can be ranked correctly in fewer than 20 games. It can predict the probability of each game outcome, which enhances competitive matchmaking, making it possible to assemble skill-balanced teams from a group of players with different abilities.

When matchmaking, the system attempts to match individuals based on their estimated skill level. If two individuals are competing head-to-head and have the same estimated skill level with low estimate uncertainty, they should each have roughly a 50% chance of winning a match. In this way, the system attempts to make every match as competitive as possible.

In order to prevent abuse of the system, the majority of ranked games have relatively limited options for matchmaking. By design, players cannot easily play with their friends in ranked games. Instead, the system supports unranked Player Matches, which allow individuals of any skill level to be paired (often including "guests" on an account). Such matches do not contribute to the TrueSkill rating.

Source (I usually wouldn't cite Wiki, but the entry is backed by the Microsoft Research document on TrueSkill)

-Spenser

Grand Master

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It might look random, but it's not. You have a 'skill level' when going into MM in CoD4, whether it's displayed or not.

I'm still taking it with a grain of salt for COD 4. It seems to ring a bit more true for Halo 3 though.

I find it hard to believe it is taking place when I (highest level on COD 4) meet several people who have just started playing consistently in just an hour or two.

Even if you have a group of 3-4 high level players, it is still easy to play with people who have just started playing. If COD 4 matched me upon my skill, the matches would seem a little more competitive and would be noticeable.

I'm not doubting the technology, just the implementation into more games than just Halo 3.

The last paragraph of your quote makes it seem extremely geared to games setup with Ranked and Unranked systems, which is absent in COD 4 which just contains Ranked.

Grand Master

spenser.d

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^^^If you read any of the research, you find it's not particularly a simple thing it's doing. I haven't read all of it and I don't know a whole lot about how it works, but it's an overall ranking of your skill, not just a per-game ranking, I believe (I could be wrong - you'd have to read the research).

While I didn't know for sure if TrueSkill was used in CoD4 before you kept prodding (I just assumed because TrueSkill is supposed to be one of the best ranking algorithms created and it is built into XBL), a little bit of digging did prove to be useful:

One thing we're still waiting to see is how balanced online play will be with level 1 players squaring off against those who've already attained the highest level and majority of equipment. An Activision representative told us Xbox 360 gamers would be sorted by their TrueSkill ranking, whereas such a feature isn't planned for the PS3 version.

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/829/829054p2.html ;)

-Spenser

Edited by stifler6478
Grand Master

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^^^If you read any of the research, you find it's not particularly a simple thing it's doing. I haven't read all of it and I don't know a whole lot about how it works, but it's an overall ranking of your skill, not just a per-game ranking, I believe (I could be wrong - you'd have to read the research).

While I didn't know for sure if TrueSkill was used in CoD4 before you kept prodding (I just assumed because TrueSkill is supposed to be one of the best ranking algorithms created and it is built into XBL), a little bit of digging did prove to be useful:

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/829/829054p2.html ;)

-Spenser

That is a great article, but does what I've experience with that being completely the opposite most of the time have any bearing?

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