offroadaaron Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 crossover games helped me run some steam games and decently aswell. But I agree there should be more games made for Mac OS X and they should come out at the same time as the PC. I'm amazed that UT3 didn't! I think more people would switch to OS X if were the same amount of games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impact Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 I wish Steam would just do it without talking to Apple lol. Also, offroadaaron, we were talking about having native games, so that you didn't have to use crossover games. I tried crossover games and it really doesn't work that well. The highest level of direct x it supports is 8.1, and my card supports direct x 10, so it's really worthless IMHO. Also, I was getting roughly 20-30 FPS less in counter strike source on crossover games than I was on vista, and I even was running at worse settings with crossover games because it wasn't allowing me to enable antialiasing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyX Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 I really wish Snow Leopard would touch the gaming industry. Because look, current gen consoles are still quite young (1-2 years) so in very good condition. But Apple should hurry to make the Mac platform an attractive gaming platform so that when consoles grow and become old, PC and Mac platforms are there to save the gaming industry. Anyway, this is the way I see the world of gaming. Obviously, there's some exclusions like strategy and management games (sims, simcity, warcraft, etc. they're not meant for consoles, period) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodrain Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 Macs are far more superior than PCs, seriously. I come from a graphic design background and that's all we use. Before I was a PC-only guy. I refused to use a mac or even buy an ipod. Several years later I completely switched and have no plans on going back but I see where your coming from, mrt2. OpenGL isn't as advanced as DirectX. I would love to be able to play these games on my Mac without having to use bootcamp. We'll have to wait and see what happens in the near future...mrt2, your specs for that Mac are damn good! how do you figure they are "superior"? Or has Apple crammed your thoughts from those commercials which makes you have a false sense of secruity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king_of_hearts Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 I'm interested in mac gaming... Crossover seems like one of the easiest ways to get into gaming on macs.. However bootcamp looks like you get better fps, and more out of your hardware. It's a tough call.. I'm debating the options myself. If steam games would be released on mac then i'd be in heaven. The vast majority of games I play are on steam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPressland Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 how do you figure they are "superior"? Or has Apple crammed your thoughts from those commercials which makes you have a false sense of secruity. Agreed, Superior is the wrong terminology here. It's his preference just as it is mine. But lets face facts here, they're easier to use, have less problems and lack any kink of virus' or spyware. So I get superior does sorta come into it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMaster23 Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 I really wish Snow Leopard would touch the gaming industry. Because look, current gen consoles are still quite young (1-2 years) so in very good condition. But Apple should hurry to make the Mac platform an attractive gaming platform so that when consoles grow and become old, PC and Mac platforms are there to save the gaming industry.Anyway, this is the way I see the world of gaming. Obviously, there's some exclusions like strategy and management games (sims, simcity, warcraft, etc. they're not meant for consoles, period) consoles 1 to 2 years old ? More like 3 or 4... just because you can't see behind the scenes, doesn't mean nothing is happening. Xbox360 game development started late 2004.. that's almost 4 years ago.. To be honest .. Mac gaming will always fail unless Apple invests big time in their architecture. Apple would need to rebuild/expand a lot of the systems to make it easier for game developers. Mac's aren't a viable option for game developers because the target audience is too small and the architecture is completely different. 360 game developers has it easy as the platform is nearly identical to one of the oldest platforms: Windows PC Take on top of that the Playstation 3 and Wii ... each different in their own way. (Btw don't think the PS3 and Mac could share platforms .. yes most of it is OpenGL but you can't just port that from one to another. Also the PS3 is a **** to program for and needs specific engines) It's already a **** job to support these 4 platforms .. no way the big boys will add the 5th for a small target audience. Also .. Mac's aren't upgradable (forget the 2200$+ Mac Pro for sec, k?) and most models come with poor-to-average performing 3d cards. For high-end gaming (where the money is at) you need more... So .. summery time .. Mac's won't get big time gaming any time soon because: - the platform is poorly supported for game developers (compared to console and windows platforms) - the hardware isn't flexible enough and the standard mainstream hardware is a little poor - game developers/publishers don't want yet another platform to support/bring up from the ground - Apple isn't going to invest in gaming anytime soon, nor should it Baseline: Let the big boys do their work.. gaming consoles do their job just perfectly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPressland Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 I still dont see why people are saying the iMac has bad gaming performance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impact Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 IDK, I think most macs are sufficient for gaming, except for maybe the Macbook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1759 Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 I still dont see why people are saying the iMac has bad gaming performance... I have an ATI HD 2600 Pro in my PC, that I got for $25 from BB, as it was a cheap upgrade over my ancient AGP 6800. It's not a great gaming card, basically good for HD video, but I don't even think Apple supports hardware acceleration in OSX with it. It will run older games like Halo flawlessly, I have F1 2002, that it runs decently well at 1280x1024, 4xAA, and GTA:SA runs OK at 1680x1050. Besides the 2600 series is 2 generations behind now, it's old. It's not 'bad', but it's just 'meh'. Yes, I know their is the 8800GS as an option, but a good gaming PC can be had for about $1000, with a better card, and that iMac is closer to 2 grand. That's where Apple fails in the games area. I play AofE III on my Mini, and it's not bad, but the 950 is what it is too. A PC or console are simply cheaper and easier to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEIST Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 As far as I am concerned, Macs will need way more market share before significant game developers and publishers will even think about making games for that platform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piggy Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 You guys will get Diablo III. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPressland Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 But I don't even think Apple supports hardware acceleration in OSX with it. The Entire OS X interface is Hardware Accelerated and has been for years, unlike Windows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offroadaaron Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 IDK, I think most macs are sufficient for gaming, except for maybe the Macbook. macbooks are not meant to be for games :s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1759 Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 The Entire OS X interface is Hardware Accelerated and has been for years, unlike Windows. I meant for videos though, other than maybe for DVDs (Mpeg-2), I don't think Apple fully utilizes the HW, as the HD 2000/3000 series can do Mpeg-4 HW decoding with ease. The point remains, unless you spend about 2 grand, you're not going to tearing it up with games on a Mac (at high quality). Get a 360 or PS3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrt2 Posted July 16, 2008 Author Share Posted July 16, 2008 It never fails how people give into popular beliefs and misconceptions... I built a PC a year before my Mac and the prices were comparable for the same type of performance... And whoever said you can build a great gaming machine that's better than a Mac for under $1000 is simply spewing unfounded information. On Pricewatch the lowest you find a 8800gtx is still around $400 so that's almost half of your $1k right there.... and to the person who said forget the MacPro for $2200 for a sec, why should we? The people who are the hardcore gamers (myself included) easily spend that money and a whole lot more for PC gaming rigs with Name brand (ocz, gskill etc...) RAM, Fast and big Hard Drives, and $400 to $500+ video cards etc... It's so moronic to me how people will compare a mid to low grade machine to a MacPro to make their point. The last PC I built for Vista had 8800GTX when it first came out so the price was like $500+ easy, Asus's newest Mboard at the time, a core 2 duo E66600, Sound Blaster X-FI, and 4Gigs of OCZ and Gskill RAM and the price was comparable to the MacPro I have right now which obviously was a bit more expensive because of the 8 cores, massive storage, and the RAM. ALSO the claims that 'I can build a better faster system for cheaper' go into the no duh category just a bit because you are talking about RETAIL vs. DO IT YOURSELF... No matter what retailer you're up against this will ALWAYS be the case... so stop comparing MacPro Prices to DIY $500 or $1k pieces of crap machines... because even Dell, HP, Gateway, Alienware (ESPECIALLY Alienware), and Falcon PC will fail this test. A fairer and less biased comparison would be comparing a MacPro to a Dell XPS or Alienware (even though Alienware is a bit extreme). On the other note I wouldn't dare say that MacPro's make superior gaming machines because that within itself is relative anyway. There is nothing about it that makes it superior (hardware wise anyway). A MacPro wouldn't be superior to a PC with the same specs... they would be equal in power because they had the same hardware. It would obviously be superior to something that has less powerful hardware but that goes without saying and also would be inferior to a pc with more powerful hardware which goes without saying as well... I guess what I'm getting at here is that the MacPro isn't necessarily 'superior' to a PC or Vice versa... it's all about the hardware that's inside. If one has better hardware than it is better if it has slower hardware then it isn't. The argument really is that simple, whether you're talking about PC vs. Mac or not. Now having said this, there is another perspective to the whole ?Mac Pros make superior gaming machines?. That is coming from the angle that most people argue about consoles being superior for gaming for the simple reason that the hardware is the same so developers can learn to develop for that specific piece of hardware without all the other concerns that DIY and a lot of Windows built PC?s would bring. For the most part the hardware is the same so developers could learn and grow with the hardware just like they did with a console. It?s theoretically would be a more ideal development platform in that the machines you would be developing for would be a lot more controlled as far as performance and quality assurance. I?m not saying this makes them better but just offering another side of the coin to look at. The comment about Mac not having enough market share for developers to really go after it, I would actually have to agree with to a degree. Reason is that there is no getting around the fact that Mac?s market share is smaller and even of that, the gaming community of Mac is EVEN smaller. It is definitely unfortunate but developers and gaming manufacturers are still companies and thus must protect their bottom lines. It takes millions of dollars for some games to be developed which might not make sense to spend that kind of money if the platform you?re developing for won?t yield you some kind of return on your investment. Even with all this, I am foaming at the mouth to having some sort of gaming development for the Mac platform. I?m tired of dual booting and I hate being stuck in limbo, never really being able to switch fully to Mac because I need to keep my Vista machine around for gaming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyX Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 consoles 1 to 2 years old ?More like 3 or 4... just because you can't see behind the scenes, doesn't mean nothing is happening. Xbox360 game development started late 2004.. that's almost 4 years ago.. I hate people playing with words like that x_x The 360 hasn't been commercialized since 4 years. Usually, when we say "this thing is new" it's because it's just been commercialized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrt2 Posted July 16, 2008 Author Share Posted July 16, 2008 Just for reference I just built a Mac Pro on the website and then built a comparable Dell (minus the video card because Dell doesn't offer the 8800 on the models that have these Xeon CPU's) and the Dell is $1300 more expensive for the exact same hardware minus the video card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majortom1981 Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 The Entire OS X interface is Hardware Accelerated and has been for years, unlike Windows. Yes but directx being with windows has made it easy for developers to develop games for windows. Microsoft big company or not does make it easy for developers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1759 Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 It never fails how people give into popular beliefs and misconceptions... I built a PC a year before my Mac and the prices were comparable for the same type of performance... And whoever said you can build a great gaming machine that's better than a Mac for under $1000 is simply spewing unfounded information. On Pricewatch the lowest you find a 8800gtx is still around $400 so that's almost half of your $1k right there.... and to the person who said forget the MacPro for $2200 for a sec, why should we? The people who are the hardcore gamers (myself included) easily spend that money and a whole lot more for PC gaming rigs with Name brand (ocz, gskill etc...) RAM, Fast and big Hard Drives, and $400 to $500+ video cards etc... It's so moronic to me how people will compare a mid to low grade machine to a MacPro to make their point. The last PC I built for Vista had 8800GTX when it first came out so the price was like $500+ easy, Asus's newest Mboard at the time, a core 2 duo E66600, Sound Blaster X-FI, and 4Gigs of OCZ and Gskill RAM and the price was comparable to the MacPro I have right now which obviously was a bit more expensive because of the 8 cores, massive storage, and the RAM. ALSO the claims that 'I can build a better faster system for cheaper' go into the no duh category just a bit because you are talking about RETAIL vs. DO IT YOURSELF... No matter what retailer you're up against this will ALWAYS be the case... so stop comparing MacPro Prices to DIY $500 or $1k pieces of crap machines... because even Dell, HP, Gateway, Alienware (ESPECIALLY Alienware), and Falcon PC will fail this test. A fairer and less biased comparison would be comparing a MacPro to a Dell XPS or Alienware (even though Alienware is a bit extreme). On the other note I wouldn't dare say that MacPro's make superior gaming machines because that within itself is relative anyway. There is nothing about it that makes it superior (hardware wise anyway). A MacPro wouldn't be superior to a PC with the same specs... they would be equal in power because they had the same hardware. It would obviously be superior to something that has less powerful hardware but that goes without saying and also would be inferior to a pc with more powerful hardware which goes without saying as well... I guess what I'm getting at here is that the MacPro isn't necessarily 'superior' to a PC or Vice versa... it's all about the hardware that's inside. If one has better hardware than it is better if it has slower hardware then it isn't. The argument really is that simple, whether you're talking about PC vs. Mac or not. Now having said this, there is another perspective to the whole ‘Mac Pros make superior gaming machines’. That is coming from the angle that most people argue about consoles being superior for gaming for the simple reason that the hardware is the same so developers can learn to develop for that specific piece of hardware without all the other concerns that DIY and a lot of Windows built PC’s would bring. For the most part the hardware is the same so developers could learn and grow with the hardware just like they did with a console. It’s theoretically would be a more ideal development platform in that the machines you would be developing for would be a lot more controlled as far as performance and quality assurance. I’m not saying this makes them better but just offering another side of the coin to look at. The comment about Mac not having enough market share for developers to really go after it, I would actually have to agree with to a degree. Reason is that there is no getting around the fact that Mac’s market share is smaller and even of that, the gaming community of Mac is EVEN smaller. It is definitely unfortunate but developers and gaming manufacturers are still companies and thus must protect their bottom lines. It takes millions of dollars for some games to be developed which might not make sense to spend that kind of money if the platform you’re developing for won’t yield you some kind of return on your investment. Even with all this, I am foaming at the mouth to having some sort of gaming development for the Mac platform. I’m tired of dual booting and I hate being stuck in limbo, never really being able to switch fully to Mac because I need to keep my Vista machine around for gaming. Have you been on newegg lately? The top end iMac uses an 8800 GS; it runs between $100-130, depending on the maker. The 8800 GT is the highest card you can currently buy from Apple - it runs between $150-200 in PC land. That's the best that Apple currently offers, the PC has better and more expensive cards, that are more powerful and cost more money? And they aren't available in Mac land, it's hard to compare if it doesn't exist. If want something similar to a Mac Pro, it's called Skulltrail. You could also go out and spend a $1000+ on a couple SLI/Crossfire cards too. Or you could get something like an ATI HD 4870 or an Nvidia GTX 260, and play all the newest games fine (well, maybe not Crysis - that computer hasn't been made yet), and those will run about $300 or so. What the hell do you want, games are not currently big on the Mac, maybe if Apple got serious, and starting working with devs on OpenGL 3.0, but they have not been that friendly to game companies, and Microsoft has made it easy with Visual Studio and Direct Xm but it's taken years for MS to get there. I have a Mac, I know what it's strengths are, but gaming is not in the cards right now, any amount of posting won't change that. And with Boot Camp, it's easy to boot into Windows. Yes, I know about things like iLife - it is what it is, but I would love a consumer grade mid-tower and a pro Office suite from Apple too, rather than the consumer level apps in iWork. Give me a flexable tower around $1200-1500, I'll bite, but I'm looking at around $1300+/- (keeping mind I already have an LCD and case) for my next computer, and likely it will be running Vista x64/Linux x64. I'll leave my Mac working happily with Aperure though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrt2 Posted July 16, 2008 Author Share Posted July 16, 2008 I know that you can buy the cheaper cards like the GS etc... for fairly cheap. If you re-read what I said, I wasn't talking about that at all. I was reffering to the comments about building faster machines for cheaper with PC which isn't accurate. I mean just by definition alone 'building faster' means faster components... a faster card than the GS and the GT is the GTX and the GTX is definitely not cheaper than a GS or GT so by simply using the facts you can see how building a faster PC won't be a cheaper... It's simple math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impact Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 I think we are going to have the market share problem almost covered in roughly two years with the current rate of growth of the mac market share. I think the real problem here is getting Apple to appeal more to game developers and make it easy for them to develop for OS X. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrt2 Posted July 16, 2008 Author Share Posted July 16, 2008 I completely agree with the point about making it appealing for developers. I mean Microsoft has done a treamendous job in this area. They have worked at their development tools for gamers over time and have built a great environment to develop games for. Apple has worked extensively for the developers in general but not for game developers specifically. OpenGL isn't the hardest thing in the world to code for but when compared to the tools offered by MS for DirectX, the differences are night and day. Even despite this fact, developers still work hard to develop for PS3 but at the same time Mac Gaming doesn't have the market that PS3 does... Posting in forums isn't going to change this but an online petition of some sort can at least alert Apple to the fact that we, their customers, actually care about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impact Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 Yeah, but aren't there already petitions for this? Here are some petitions: http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/make-a...out-gaming.html http://www.PetitionOnline.com/steam1/petition.html I signed both of them. The first one only has like 50 signatures :(, but the second one has almost 2,500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cara Veteran Posted July 17, 2008 Veteran Share Posted July 17, 2008 Just a quick note... Online petitions mean very little to companies and will not cause any major shift in a large company's behavior without MASSIVE attention. Many games are beginning to come to the Mac, the gaming industry is only recently beginning to look into coding or porting to the Apple platform due to increased growth. With that being said, I do not foresee many of the major Windows Gaming Houses making the transition to Mac anytime soon due to the lack of DirectX and the refusal to migrate to an open standard such as OpenGL which is multi-platform friendly. Apple isn't the one keeping games off the Mac, it's a lack of interest from the developers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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