Does the Superbar still look like crap at 120DPI?

By C++
in The Fast Ring (Insider Previews)

 Share

Recommended Posts

Veteran

C++

Posted
  • Author
Posted
DPI Settings are completely fixed in Windows 7. They demonstrated it at PDC, and it all looks great.

Screenies:

http://www.istartedsomething.com/20081029/...er-than-your-7/

Dammit, that's not fixed at all... 120DPI still stretches 16x16 icons, and it looks like ass. :crazy:

Veteran

C++

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Er, so crappy res icons look crappy when stretched? Why does this not surprise me?

What are you expecting to happen?

I don't know, maybe not stretching them? There is no reason why they couldn't stay at 16x16 with only the clickable area around them being increased. Or how about downscaling 32 pixel versions instead?

Yea, clearly there is nothing that could be done...

Grand Master

gigapixels Veteran

Posted
  • Veteran
Posted
I don't know, maybe not stretching them? There is no reason why they couldn't stay at 16x16 with only the clickable area around them being increased. Or how about downscaling 32 pixel versions instead?

Yea, clearly there is nothing that could be done...

Not stretching them is just ridiculous. The whole point of increasing the DPI is for people who cannot see the interface clearly at the smaller DPI settings, so keeping an icon at its original size while increasing the size of everything else will leave that icon just as hard to see as it was before. And as far as using a larger-sized icon and downscaling it, that would require that developers include a larger-sized icon for the system tray icon, which probably won't happen often, if at all.

Veteran

C++

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Not stretching them is just ridiculous. The whole point of increasing the DPI is for people who cannot see the interface clearly at the smaller DPI settings, so keeping an icon at its original size while increasing the size of everything else will leave that icon just as hard to see as it was before. And as far as using a larger-sized icon and downscaling it, that would require that developers include a larger-sized icon for the system tray icon, which probably won't happen often, if at all.

How does stretching an icon by 2 frickin' pixels make anything more visible? It only makes icons blurry and harder to read. Look at the screenshot.

http://www.istartedsomething.com/wp-conten...2008/10/120.png

Grand Master

Denis W. Veteran

Posted
  • Veteran
Posted
I don't know, maybe not stretching them? There is no reason why they couldn't stay at 16x16 with only the clickable area around them being increased. Or how about downscaling 32 pixel versions instead?

Yea, clearly there is nothing that could be done...

Microsoft can't just magically whip up 32x32 tray icons for those apps who only designate 16x16 icons for the tray, especially animating/changing icons. In any case, for apps such as Windows Live Messenger, they won't use the tray anymore, instead opting for the taskbar button instead.

They have done their own part to properly scale up their own main three tray icons: Volume, Power, and Network look pixel sharp at 120 DPI. Action Center's icon in 6801 is gone from the later builds.

post-99705-1227389687.png

Also I noticed Windows 7 uses XP-style DPI scaling by default... any reason?

Grand Master

gigapixels Veteran

Posted
  • Veteran
Posted
How does stretching an icon by 2 frickin' pixels make anything more visible? It only makes icons blurry and harder to read. Look at the screenshot.

http://www.istartedsomething.com/wp-conten...2008/10/120.png

I already looked at the screenshot. I'd say that's far better than leaving it the same size as before.

Grand Master

Kirkburn

Posted
Posted
How does stretching an icon by 2 frickin' pixels make anything more visible?

We are talking about increasing the size of stuff on the screen ... so yes, it will be increased in size, as that is the point.

If the icons weren't scaled up, it wouldn't be doing the job its supposed to be doing. Yes, this is bad for old icons at crap resolutions. No, there isn't some magical solution.

Grand Master

Simon Veteran

Posted
  • Veteran
Posted

The "magical solution" everyone is looking for lies in vectorized graphics, rather than rasterized ones. Microsoft should be supporting them, but as far as I know they do not. SVG rendering is something that should, without a doubt, be built into Windows 7 for icons, as an *option* for developers. You'll still get the ones who like the PNG's, but with a little extra effort, those who make the icons can have one that scales infinitely.

But as for the blurry icons, if 2 pixels doesn't make a difference for being able to see them, then a) you probably don't need to change your DPI anyway, and b) it shouldn't blur them to the point of distracting you. DPI scaling compensates for smaller items on a screen, and a 16x16 icon is definitely one of them.

Veteran

C++

Posted
  • Author
Posted
The "magical solution" everyone is looking for lies in vectorized graphics, rather than rasterized ones. Microsoft should be supporting them, but as far as I know they do not. SVG rendering is something that should, without a doubt, be built into Windows 7 for icons, as an *option* for developers. You'll still get the ones who like the PNG's, but with a little extra effort, those who make the icons can have one that scales infinitely.

But as for the blurry icons, if 2 pixels doesn't make a difference for being able to see them, then a) you probably don't need to change your DPI anyway, and b) it shouldn't blur them to the point of distracting you. DPI scaling compensates for smaller items on a screen, and a 16x16 icon is definitely one of them.

But it does make a difference, it makes them less readable than just keeping them at 16 pixels. Here is a random screenshot of someone's notification area at 120DPI. Would you call this "more visible"?

vista_dpi_scaling_problem_programs.png

And yes I do actually need the 120DPI setting, for the fonts, which is what the option boasts to increase in the first place. A 15.4" WUXGA screen isn't very readable at 96DPI.

Grand Master

Denis W. Veteran

Posted
  • Veteran
Posted

They could try coding in a bilinear filter to upscale the icons, much like how Vista stretches non-DPI aware windows by default. Would that work?

Veteran

C++

Posted
  • Author
Posted

I stand by my first suggestion of just keeping the icons at 16 pixels. If you need bigger icons, cursors or window handles, separate options exist for that. The font DPI option has no reason to enlarge things other than fonts, especially when it actually makes those other things less readable than they were before. In the end, this option is purely about readability. And clearly, what it does to icons does not help in that department.

Grand Master

Kirkburn

Posted
Posted

Where is this referred to as "font" DPI (in Windows 7), and how are you making the distinction for "readability"? How does readability solely mean bigger fonts, when a lot of programs and functions are icon based, especially for the less literate, or hard of sight?

In addition, you realise huge fonts and small everything else would look far far more ridiculous, with fonts going outside their bounds, icons being in the wrong places, etc, etc...

Yes, those icons look bad - few will dispute that - but I don't think that is entirely the fault of Windows - developers should be creating higher resolution icons. SVG would fix it, but only for future icons. It does appear that the filter for old icon could be improved, but there's only so much you can do for pixel artwork.

Grand Master

jakem1

Posted
Posted
The "magical solution" everyone is looking for lies in vectorized graphics, rather than rasterized ones. Microsoft should be supporting them, but as far as I know they do not. SVG rendering is something that should, without a doubt, be built into Windows 7 for icons, as an *option* for developers. You'll still get the ones who like the PNG's, but with a little extra effort, those who make the icons can have one that scales infinitely.

But as for the blurry icons, if 2 pixels doesn't make a difference for being able to see them, then a) you probably don't need to change your DPI anyway, and b) it shouldn't blur them to the point of distracting you. DPI scaling compensates for smaller items on a screen, and a 16x16 icon is definitely one of them.

From memory Microsoft have stated that they don't intend to use SVG for icons because large icons with lots of detail become meaningless at 16x16. Microsoft's position on icons is that 16x16 icons should display a slightly different image to 32x32 and above to make the meaning of the icon clear and recognisable with the smaller pixel count.

Grand Master

Brandon Live Veteran

Posted
  • Veteran
Posted

There's a blog post on the E7 blog about vectorized icons. It isn't the fix-all "magic" solution that some people here make it out to be. That's why nobody implements them.

Notification icons other than the system ones are hidden by default now, so they'll be less of an eyesore. You can't selectively scale things that may or may not look bad... Windows tries to determine if apps are high DPI aware and do special scaling on the app window if it does not, but this is a compatibility measure not a real solution.

The right solution is for apps to do a better job supporting high DPI. We can help by giving developers tools to make this easier, and by building some high DPI awareness into standard components that developers use, but in the end it's up to them to provide the appropriate icons and to test their layout logic at higher DPI settings.

DPI is not font size. If you want to change just the font size, there is an option for that and it will have no impact on your icons.

I run Win7 at the 150% DPI setting at home on my 1080p media center, and it works great.

This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share
Go to topic listing

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Posts

    • Windows 11 version 26H2 is now available for testing in the latest preview build

      By kiddingguy · Posted

      Nice. September/October GA?! I'll keep following it, but won't install any preview or beta versions.
    • Waymo recalls self-driving software after cars enter closed freeway work zones

      By ad47uk · Posted

      Wow, that could have been dangerous, certainly not ready for these things. They have to be 100% or pretty well close to it. Not that I will see one i doubt, never mind ride in one, they may have them in London, but I doubt they will come to where I live.
    • Nothing kills CMF Phone 2 Pro's successor due to rising memory prices

      By Hamid Ganji · Posted

      Nothing kills CMF Phone 2 Pro's successor due to rising memory prices by Hamid Ganji Storage and RAM prices have been rising over the past year, leading to a significant increase in the cost of electronics for customers around the world. Many companies are now revising their plans for upcoming devices due to higher component costs and overall production expenses. CMF is the latest company to cancel the successor to one of its best-selling phones due to rising memory prices. CMF is a sub-brand of Nothing and focuses on making budget smartphones for growing markets. The brand launched the CMF Phone 2 Pro last year with some eye-catching specifications and an affordable price. While many customers may have been waiting for a successor this year, one of the company’s executives has announced that CMF will not release a new smartphone this year. And AI is to blame. As Nothing co-founder Akis Evangelidis announced on X, the company has been working on a successor to the CMF Phone 2 Pro, but with current memory prices, it cannot “build a phone that feels like a genuine step forward at a price that makes sense for CMF.” So, no new CMF phone will be launched this year. Meanwhile, Evangelidis said the company still has several new products in the pipeline, including some in entirely new categories. He added that the Nothing brand will also continue launching new products through 2026. Budget smartphones are among the first victims of the surge in RAM and memory prices, as they have become more expensive to build. The sharp increase in memory costs could also reshape the traditional price ranges associated with budget phones. Apple CEO Tim Cook also recently said that price increases for some of the company’s products are unavoidable because RAM and memory have become significantly more expensive this year. Analysts estimate that the base price of the upcoming iPhone 18 Pro could rise to $1,399 due to current market shortages.
    • Windows 11 gets new audio improvements in the latest builds

      By RejZoR · Posted

      Nudge me when they bring back hardware audio acceleration so I can get my EAX 5 back. We've evolved graphics to real-time path tracing, but regressed audio some 15 years back in time with this stupid software audio stack.
    • Ocenaudio 3.19.4

      By Copernic · Posted

      Ocenaudio 3.19.4 by Razvan Serea  Ocenaudio is a full featured, fast and easy to use audio and music editor. It is the ideal software for people who need to edit and analyze audio files without complications. Ocenaudio also has powerful features that will please more advanced users. To assist ocenaudio development, a powerful toolset of audio editing, analysis and manipulation called Ocen Framework was created. ocenaudio is also based on Qt framework, a well known library for cross-platform development. Cross-platform support ocenaudio is available for all major operating systems: Microsoft Windows, Mac OS X and Linux. Native applications are generated for each platform from a common source, in order to achieve excelent performance and seamless integration with the operating system. All versions of ocenaudio have a uniform set of features and the same graphical interface, so the skills you learn in one platform can be used in the others. VST plugins support Ocenaudio supports VST (Virtual Studio Technology) plugins, giving its users access to numerous effects. Like the native effects, VST effects can use real-time preview to aide configuration. Real-time preview of effects Applying effects such as EQ, gain and filtering is an important part of audio editing. However, it is very tricky to get the desired result by adjusting the controls configuration alone: you must listen the processed audio. To ease the configuration of audio effects, ocenaudio has a real time preview feature: you hear the processed signal while adjusting the controls. The effect configuration window also includes a miniature view of the selected audio signal. You can navigate on this miniature view in the same way as you do on the main interface, selecting parts that interest you and listening to the effect result in real time. Multiselection for delicate editions To speed up complex audio files editing, ocenaudio includes multi-selection. With this amazing tool, you can simultaneously select different portions of an audio file and listen, edit or even apply an effect to them. For example, if you want to normalize only the excerpts of an interview where the interviewee is talking, just select them and apply the effect. Eficient edition of large files With ocenaudio, there is no limit to the length or the quantity of the audio files you can edit. Using an advanced memory management system, the application keeps your files open without wasting any of your computer's memory. Even in files several hours long, common editing operations such as copy, cut or paste happen almost instantly. Fully featured spectrogram Besides offering an incredible waveform view of your audio files, ocenaudio has a powerful and complete spectrogram view. In this view, you can analyze the spectral content of your audio signal with maximum clarity. Advanced users will be surprised to find that the spectrogram settings are applied in real time. The display is updated immediately when altering features such as the number of frequency bands, window type and size and dynamic range of the display. Ocenaudio 3.19.4 changelog: Adds fallback fonts so every language and symbol displays correctly Improves autosave and session recovery stability Improves region navigation and display Fixes a crash when the level meter is used on displays with a scaling greater than 200% Fixes memory corruption when using the silence selection tools Fixes crashes when closing a file while effects are still being processed Fixes a freeze when applying effects to many files at once (macOS) Fixes crashes related to audio devices on Windows Fixes invalid file names when exporting regions whose label is used as the file name Other bug fixes and improvements Download: Ocenaudio 64-bit | Portable | ~40.0 MB (Freeware) Download: Ocenaudio for Linux and Mac OS View: Ocenaudio Homepage | Screenshot Get alerted to all of our Software updates on Twitter at @NeowinSoftware

  • Recent Achievements

    • Collaborator
      ryansurfer98 went up a rank
      Collaborator
    • Week One Done
      Eurosoft10 earned a badge
      Week One Done
    • One Month Later
      Eurosoft10 earned a badge
      One Month Later
    • One Year In
      Skeet Campbell earned a badge
      One Year In
    • One Month Later
      Sharbel earned a badge
      One Month Later

  • Popular Contributors

    1. 1
      +primortal
      541
    2. 2
      +Edouard
      187
    3. 3
      Michael Scrip
      78
    4. 4
      PsYcHoKiLLa
      75
    5. 5
      Steven P.
      71
    Show More

  • Tell a friend

    Love Neowin? Tell a friend!