Windows 7 will run Aero on non-DX10/9 hardware

By ToneKnee
in The Fast Ring (Insider Previews)

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Grand Master

XerXis

Posted
Posted

so what's new, directx always had a software emulator for features not supported by the the GPU. I've used it a lot when I did 3d programming on my laptop while travelling.

And nowhere is said that it will be used for aero, I can't believe the kind of **** people keep inventing

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morphen

Posted
Posted
this is in direct responce to the vista debacle with the 915 chipset. I have an old 915 notebook that was vista capable. they didnt tell you that aero wouldnt run and half of the included apps would not work because aero wasnt caspable of running.

This makes windows 7 fully run on any pc . which goes back to my complaint. instead of fixing their apps to not require a gpu they built a sub system to fool the apps to run. Example on my acer which has an 915 chipset which movie maker works perfectly well on xp in vista on the same pc movie maker refuses top run because i cant run aero.

I feel this is microsoft just being lazy and trying to get out of legal trouble. that is all .

Get over yourself, you bought a crappy computer, and now microsoft has got a fix for you, if you are willing to wait about one year (or run the beta).

So...microsoft is lazy?

The reason vistas movie maker does not work is it's rendering process is based on WDDM.

And it's capable? it's running vista isn't it?

So please, stop complaining. No-one forced you to buy it that computer:p

But, I do imagine there will be cries of complaint of people running Windows 7 on vastly underpowered computers with Aero turned on, complaining that the CPU usage is too high...

Vista all over again. People thought their eight year old XP certified computer could run it without problems :p

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wellofsouls

Posted
Posted
Yeah, but really, is there any point of using 'WARP'? It's like. Yay! I can run Crysis, but at 7fps (On a i7 based processor). Hardly playable.

Sure, there's no point in running Crysis with WARP, but Aero Glass is another matter. Aero Glass should be exponentially less taxing than Crysis, after all. I'd guess a medium-range dual-core should be able to handle the 3D computations required by Aero Glass with little overhead to the whole system performance.

whether MS will really let it support Aero Glass on sub-DX9 systems, that's another issue.

Community Regular

Hungarian Salami

Posted
Posted

Just think of the idea - spending extra CPU cycles just to run eye candy. This is not productive. This is meant to be used in games. And probably Win7 won't even come with drivers for 8500 video card - thats old man!

Grand Master

Ci7

Posted
Posted
Ugh, it's just the goddamn reference renderer. Just because they've slapped a silly name on it, everyone's suddenly jacking off.

just like mmmm

ah yes !

GIVE us WinFS !!!! NTFS SUXor ! :laugh:

btw :

i like the cartoon in your sig ;)

Grand Master

PL_ Veteran

Posted
  • Veteran
Posted

I'm surprised people see this as a bad thing. Apple are doing a similar thing in Snow Leopard (except offloading CPU tasks to the GPU instead of the reverse) and people praise it as being a good idea, MS does it and suddenly it's bad.

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Windows7even

Posted
Posted
Ugh, it's just the goddamn reference renderer. Just because they've slapped a silly name on it, everyone's suddenly jacking off.

i love how everyone keeps saying what it is...the sdk or white papers havent even been released and we barely know anything about it yet

Grand Master

Glowstick

Posted
Posted
well then mr smarty pants has anyone figured out how to actually run applications on the software renderer? i think not...now we have that ability...why is that a bad thing?

The renderer is with the SDK. Install it to use it. Just because it's suddenly bundled with Windows 7 main, doesn't make it the second coming of Jesus.

Mentor

morphen

Posted
Posted
The renderer is with the SDK. Install it to use it. Just because it's suddenly bundled with Windows 7 main, doesn't make it the second coming of Jesus.

Does'nt make it the first coming of satan either :p

Microsoft; "Hey,we have made a software rederer to make it easier for developers to test and develop software"

People who don't actually have any knowhow; "Wasted development time, i don't need it, i'm egoistic"

Grand Master

Brandon Live Veteran

Posted
  • Veteran
Posted

Again, this has nothing to do with running Aero on machines that don't support the DWM currently. It simply won't happen.

My understanding is that WARP 10 is about the DirectX team listening to developers and their biggest complaints about DX9 and OpenGL... caps. Now that caps are gone they need a way to fill in any gaps in the hardware, especially if they want to support DX10+ on the broadest range of hardware possible.

Grand Master

PGHammer

Posted
Posted
Taking advantage of x86 CPU that way, are you freaking kidding me? Intel's Larrabe is going to suck big time.

Well, my laptop does not need this cause it has ATI X3000 video chip unlike others with crappy Intel Integrated Video Chip. Either way Aero can run using Video Cards such as Geforce 3, Radeon 8500, and even Integrated Intel Video Chip capable of running 1.1 Shader Model which is enough. As I said Microsoft does everything wrong. Maybe the best way Steve Jobs summarized it saying that what is actually 'sad' is that Microsoft writes 3rd grade Software and Operating System.

There are Intel integrated graphics chips that can run Aero in Vista today. The X3100 (common in a lot of notebooks, not to mention the odd desktop) certainly does (even on x64), as does the nForce 630i and AMD's 780G. The big advantage is for VM software (VMWare, VirtualBox, and hypervisor-based software such as Xen or Microsoft's own Hyper-V) which lets thin clients take advantage of the same tricks as full systems (a real plus for enterprise deployments, especially those with lots of thin-client desktops). What's wrong with that?

I have 6956 installed both in a VM (VirtualPC 2007) and a native install, and, for once, both have Aero support.

Grand Master

PGHammer

Posted
Posted
Or maybe WARP is just a playground for developers?

Actually, while WARP is certainly useful for developers (especially those that use VMs for software development, which is becoming commonplace), the real gain will be on thin clients, which will be nearly indistinguishable from full-system clients from a desktop-capability POV.

WARP is actually based on older technology (that appeared in Windows 2000 Professional, which was the first NT-based OS to specifically support DirectX). Does anyone remember Windows 2000's Hardware Emulation Layer (acronym is, unfortunately, HEL)? It basically defined a floor set of capabilities for any Windows 2000-based desktop (the floor was DX 5). WARP brings it up to DX10 emulated capability. This is bad how?

Grand Master

PGHammer

Posted
Posted
Source

As we already know that Windows 7 will feature 'WARP' which allows the CPU processor to render GPU functions/features. But, while this may be great for people who run old hardware like a Radeon 8500 (for example), allowing them to use Aero features like transparency and so on. I doubt it'll be so great on the processor. If anything, people would be worse off since the CPU would have to do it's primary job as well as Graphical effects. Does anyone else agree this is a false positive?

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, it just doesn't seem logical. If you haven't got a computer that doesn't render Aero, then you are seriously behind in the technology world. What does everybody else think of this?

I actually think that those that run 7 in VMs (sandbox testers and developers now, and enterprise deployers, especially those deploying to thin clients, in the future) will seriously enjoy the capabilities of WARP. It's not even new technology; it's an enhancement of a feature that's been present in NT since Windows 2000 - the Hardware Emulation Layer. The Hardware Emulation Layer defined a floor set of capabilities for all hardware that could physically run Windows 2000/XP/Vista (and now 7); WARP in 7, however, has really ramped up that floor to the point that Aero and DX10 is part of the base capability level of any system running 7 (rather than an option, as it is in Vista today). Remember, Aero in Vista doesn't even require DX10 in hardware (AMD's R300, which is pre-XP SP2, is Aero-capable, as is nVidia's FX series and even Intel's X3100). I'm wondering just how fast WARP will run in practice, and a WARPed 7 VM makes a great sandbox.

Grand Master

PGHammer

Posted
Posted
Why are we even still talking about pre DX9 hardware, it'd be so old that the rest of the computer wouldn't even run Vista, let alone Windows 7.

Datapoint:

One of three P4-based computers I have upgraded to Windows Vista is a Dell OptiPlex GX260 (P4 2.4 Northwood-B, 1 GB of RAM, but only Radeon 8500DV AGP graphics, which replaced the original Radeon 7500 AGP graphics). Another is a similar P4 with 512 MB of RAM and Radeon 7500 AGP graphics. Both run Vista Ultimate (x86) today.

My own current daily beater is another P4 (albeit a Northwood-C) with 2 GB of RAM and the Aero-capable Radeon x1650 Pro AGP; it dual-boots Vista Ultimate (with SP1) and Windows 7 Ultimate (6956).

The problem isn't whether or not there are capable AGP graphics cards for Vista (or even 7); there certainly are (starting with AMD's HD2xxx series, which supports DX 10, and the HD3xxx series, which supports DX 10.1). In fact, there's versions of the HD2400 Pro in PCI (not PCIe, but plain old PCI).

Proof: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList....42&name=PCI

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