Hacker Gary McKinnon loses extradition appeal

[thealexweb]

The worst bit about this is that the treaty that McKinnon is being extradited under hasn't even been ratified by the Americans yet.

Do you mean there's been no public vote at all on something this important?

[ncoday]

They aren't saying his disability excuses him, they are saying how extradition could effect him given his disability.

What does that mean "effect" him?

If I robbed a store in Germany, and then came back to the US, being extradited back to Germany would "effect" me!

I just laugh at people who think he will actually serve anywhere close to 70 years in prison :laugh: :laugh:

IF convicted, which I think many people fail to acknowledge that his conviction in US court is not guaranteed, he will likely never serve more than 1-3 years.

Also, if I hacked in the UK Government's computers, everyone over across the pond would scream bloody murder if my lawyer said I should be tried in the US, not the UK.

Hypocracy in this issue is so amazing!

[Intersect]

"Also, if I hacked in the UK Government's computers, everyone over across the pond would scream bloody murder if my lawyer said I should be tried in the US, not the UK.

Hypocracy in this issue is so amazing! "

but he didn't "hack" into the computers he just found systems with blank passwords and let him self back in when he wanted.

if the systems had been protected properly, he proberly wouldn't have got in btw its nice to see your tax dollars working well in that department.

[ncoday]

The worst bit about this is that the treaty that McKinnon is being extradited under hasn't even been ratified by the Americans yet.

Which treaty are you referring to?

[Miuku.]

Which treaty are you referring to?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_Act_2003

Actually according to that article it has been ratified. Most likely it's not working in reality however as USA does not extradite their people for various crimes, one of them being war crimes.

[ncoday]

"Also, if I hacked in the UK Government's computers, everyone over across the pond would scream bloody murder if my lawyer said I should be tried in the US, not the UK.

Hypocracy in this issue is so amazing! "

but he didn't "hack" into the computers he just found systems with blank passwords and let him self back in when he wanted.

if the systems had been protected properly, he proberly wouldn't have got in btw its nice to see your tax dollars working well in that department.

Hacking is not all about using password crackers and so forth.

The formal charges would not be "hacking" as that is too vague.

It would be something similar to "unauthorized access" of a computer, of which he is guilty it appears

[Brodel]

What does that mean "effect" him?

If I robbed a store in Germany, and then came back to the US, being extradited back to Germany would "effect" me!

Try looking up what Asperger's Syndrome is.

[FloatingFatMan]

Try looking up what Asperger's Syndrome is.

I wonder if they'll send him back again when he inevitably freaks out... :(

[Panacik]

One more incident where it shows that the UK gov is the US's bitch.

Unfortunatly, i have to agree with you on this one :(

Have to agree with you on this one. Our government caves into the Americans all the time, and this is just another case of that. The Americans can't hack being made to look silly, and want to come down on Gary with their usual iron fisted arrogance.

I would like to hope the EU can intervene in this one, he needs to be tried where he actually has a chance of a fair trial

Looks like he is bang out of luck here. The EU has apparently quashed his appeals too.

He committed the crime, and needs to be tried for it.

Just as in the days of old, it doesn't matter where the crime was committed, it matters against who. Pirates were often tried by the countries that they normally would attack. No different today.

If his sickness/illness is so bad, then maybe he should spend the rest of his life in a mental hospital, since he can help himself, or deal with the results from his actions.

Erm, excuse me? Mental hospital? Cant help himself? What?

You clearly have no understanding of his illness and you clearly have no idea what has actually occured, otherwise you would not be posting something so ignorant relating to the illness and the crime!

He logged onto some Government PC's which didn't have administrator passwords on, Installed a type of VNC program and browsed and downloaded pictures.

This is what he said he did, I havn't heard what the Governement said how he caused that amount of damage but it certainly wasn't sue to that.

I bet their IT dept took a beating after it was discovered they didn't even put passwords on the local administrator accounts.

I do agree that the UK are always bending over and taking it for the US

My guess is this:

He gained easy access to thier machines, looked at a few pictures and had a look around a few times and that was it.

The IT dept there found out and took measures to stop it happening again. Problem is, they screwed up and lost lots of information from the server. Easy way to cover their back... 'The "hacker" did it'

Add a few extra times and claim he broke stuff and cause purposefull damage. It would be hard to prove he did or didnt... They keep their jobs and some random guy from the UK, who isnt important to them gets to take the rap.

What does that mean "effect" him?

If I robbed a store in Germany, and then came back to the US, being extradited back to Germany would "effect" me!

I just laugh at people who think he will actually serve anywhere close to 70 years in prison :laugh: :laugh:

IF convicted, which I think many people fail to acknowledge that his conviction in US court is not guaranteed, he will likely never serve more than 1-3 years.

Also, if I hacked in the UK Government's computers, everyone over across the pond would scream bloody murder if my lawyer said I should be tried in the US, not the UK.

Hypocracy in this issue is so amazing!

Actually, if Gary gets extradited and you didnt for the same thing THEN we would scream bloody murder. However, if Gary doesnt and then you did, or it was on the cards that you MIGHT, then i personally would stand your ground that you should be tried on home soil.

[ScottKin]

Nonsense... 70 years.. its outrageous ... plus I don't see his hacking did $800,000 in damage... such insensitive stupid people and laws!

Let's see how this all works out on paper:

where

n = number of headcount per site for post-breach clean-up

s = number of sites infiltrated

h = total headcount for post-breach clean-up

b = billable hours per site for clean-up, re-certification & security audit

r = pay rate per headcount

c = cost for clean-up

let

n = 5 ; estimation only

s = 97 ; documented infiltrations

b = 80 ; two weeks for clean-up, recovery, restore-from-backup, validation & re-certificatiion

r = $25.00 ; technician with average skill set for project

h = s * n

h = 97 * 5

h = 485

c = h * (b * r)

c = 485 * (80 * $25.00)

c = US$970,000.00

Cost of clean-up, Security restoration & re-certification of affected systems: US$970,000.00

Now, if we get cheaper, less experienced techs working on the systems, or reduce the billable hours, we barely skate under the estimated $800,000.00 worth of damages.

When such damages are estimated for illegal penetration of Government systems, most people just can't get their heads around what "damages" are; they usually only think of physical damage to the systems in question, and don't figure-in any workforce and/or labor costs to restore such systems at the software level. Chance are that people who don't think of such things are people who have no idea of business concepts like COB (Cost of Business), Labor costs, Cost centers, Working Capital and other such business terms.

--ScottKin

[Unconnected]

dude....

[ScottKin]

What does that mean "effect" him?

If I robbed a store in Germany, and then came back to the US, being extradited back to Germany would "effect" me!

I just laugh at people who think he will actually serve anywhere close to 70 years in prison :laugh: :laugh:

IF convicted, which I think many people fail to acknowledge that his conviction in US court is not guaranteed, he will likely never serve more than 1-3 years.

Also, if I hacked in the UK Government's computers, everyone over across the pond would scream bloody murder if my lawyer said I should be tried in the US, not the UK.

Hypocracy in this issue is so amazing!

Firstly, to all: the word is "affect", not "effect":

EFFECT:

?noun 1. something that is produced by an agency or cause; result; consequence: Exposure to the sun had the effect of toughening his skin.

2. power to produce results; efficacy; force; validity; influence: His protest had no effect.

3. the state of being effective or operative; operation or execution; accomplishment or fulfillment: to bring a plan into effect.

4. a mental or emotional impression produced, as by a painting or a speech.

5. meaning or sense; purpose or intention: She disapproved of the proposal and wrote to that effect.

6. the making of a desired impression: We had the feeling that the big, expensive car was only for effect.

7. an illusory phenomenon: a three-dimensional effect.

8. a real phenomenon (usually named for its discoverer): the Doppler effect.

9. special effects.

AFFECT:

?verb (used with object) 1. to act on; produce an effect or change in: Cold weather affected the crops.

2. to impress the mind or move the feelings of: The music affected him deeply.

3. (of pain, disease, etc.) to attack or lay hold of.

?noun 4. Psychology. feeling or emotion.

5. Psychiatry. an expressed or observed emotional response: Restricted, flat, or blunted affect may be a symptom of mental illness, especially schizophrenia.

6. Obsolete. affection; passion; sensation; inclination; inward disposition or feeling.

Now, on with the response:

If you were an American, living in the US, traveled to Germany and did break the law in Germany and then returned to the US, you would most likely be extradited to Germany to stand trial. That's how Extradition Treaties work, and McKinnon was banking on a liberalist, sympathetic British ear to stay the extradition to the US.

--ScottKin

[ViperAFK]

Murder = 40 years, often less.

Hacking into a US computer network that was poorly protected and causing no intentional damage = 70 years...........

QFT he deserves to be punished for what he did, but this is too much.

[Gio Takahashi]

70 years is way too much...

[Growled Member]

Sucks for him.

[Trojanlife4]

The truth of the matter is one paranoid bunch of crooks (US GOV) wants to ensure that the other bunch (UK GOV) doesn?t lock him away for a few years and then afterwards leave him to sell his skills to other countries in order to infiltrate what other nefarious shenanigans the White house or Downing Street are involved in -- in our name. 70 years in a hard cell should solve that one!

[Intersect]

Firstly, to all: the word is "affect", not "effect":

EFFECT:

?noun 1. something that is produced by an agency or cause; result; consequence: Exposure to the sun had the effect of toughening his skin.

2. power to produce results; efficacy; force; validity; influence: His protest had no effect.

3. the state of being effective or operative; operation or execution; accomplishment or fulfillment: to bring a plan into effect.

4. a mental or emotional impression produced, as by a painting or a speech.

5. meaning or sense; purpose or intention: She disapproved of the proposal and wrote to that effect.

6. the making of a desired impression: We had the feeling that the big, expensive car was only for effect.

7. an illusory phenomenon: a three-dimensional effect.

8. a real phenomenon (usually named for its discoverer): the Doppler effect.

9. special effects.

AFFECT:

?verb (used with object) 1. to act on; produce an effect or change in: Cold weather affected the crops.

2. to impress the mind or move the feelings of: The music affected him deeply.

3. (of pain, disease, etc.) to attack or lay hold of.

?noun 4. Psychology. feeling or emotion.

5. Psychiatry. an expressed or observed emotional response: Restricted, flat, or blunted affect may be a symptom of mental illness, especially schizophrenia.

6. Obsolete. affection; passion; sensation; inclination; inward disposition or feeling.

Now, on with the response:

If you were an American, living in the US, traveled to Germany and did break the law in Germany and then returned to the US, you would most likely be extradited to Germany to stand trial. That's how Extradition Treaties work, and McKinnon was banking on a liberalist, sympathetic British ear to stay the extradition to the US.

--ScottKin

Thats the problem with those who do not understand whats going on. the media an goverments rely on this fact.

so if the total cost of damae which is $800.000 then who do they have running the it departments whos job it was to secure them ? send the so called IT admin's on a traning course, some thing simple like security+ hell bythe sounds of it even the a+ would give them a headache.

Garry I wish you luck and hope you dont get sent to the usa.

[tiagosilva29]

The truth of the matter is one paranoid bunch of crooks (US GOV) wants to ensure that the other bunch (UK GOV) doesn?t lock him away for a few years and then afterwards leave him to sell his skills to other countries in order to infiltrate what other nefarious shenanigans the White house or Downing Street are involved in -- in our name. 70 years in a hard cell should solve that one!

No, this is the whole truth:

The charge that he perpetrated "the biggest military hack of all time" is ridiculed by McKinnon who characterises himself as a "bumbling computer nerd" who undestructively accessed open, unsecured machines while under the influence of cannabis, and that the destruction claims were manufactured by embarrassed US authorities after the fact in order to meet a dollar amount requisite to seek an extradition, in order to make him a poster child and intimidate any snoopers, especially those interested in the alien technology subjects he believed the public had a moral right to be aware of.

That Chronopulous-buddy used a simple Perl script to look for systems with open passwords and retrieve photos of aliens. He doesn't have any "special powers" or "?ber skills". The USA got hummiliated by a normal sysadmin, since they didn't protected themselves. They were lucky that Tom Servo, Mephistopheles or any one of our devs weren't interested in their systems.

[thealexweb]

Let's see how this all works out on paper:

where

n = number of headcount per site for post-breach clean-up

s = number of sites infiltrated

h = total headcount for post-breach clean-up

b = billable hours per site for clean-up, re-certification & security audit

r = pay rate per headcount

c = cost for clean-up

let

n = 5 ; estimation only

s = 97 ; documented infiltrations

b = 80 ; two weeks for clean-up, recovery, restore-from-backup, validation & re-certificatiion

r = $25.00 ; technician with average skill set for project

h = s * n

h = 97 * 5

h = 485

c = h * (b * r)

c = 485 * (80 * $25.00)

c = US$970,000.00

Cost of clean-up, Security restoration & re-certification of affected systems: US$970,000.00

Now, if we get cheaper, less experienced techs working on the systems, or reduce the billable hours, we barely skate under the estimated $800,000.00 worth of damages.

When such damages are estimated for illegal penetration of Government systems, most people just can't get their heads around what "damages" are; they usually only think of physical damage to the systems in question, and don't figure-in any workforce and/or labor costs to restore such systems at the software level. Chance are that people who don't think of such things are people who have no idea of business concepts like COB (Cost of Business), Labor costs, Cost centers, Working Capital and other such business terms.

--ScottKin

The computers he "hacked" in to had no advanced data encryption, they had less security that the standard PC, whoever was running the department should be jailed, Gary should be offered a job to work for the US Government.