Mozilla execs want change to ballot screen proposal

[red.]

Quick, where's that script to remove Firefox? :o

[Lechio]

Has anyone ever proven that IE got a dominate position in the market just because MS bundled it with Windows?

Some history:

Windows Internet Explorer (formerly Microsoft Internet Explorer; abbreviated to MSIE or, more commonly, IE), is a series of graphical web browsers developed by Microsoft and included as part of the Microsoft Windows line of operating systems starting in 1995. It has been the most widely used web browser since 1999(...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer

Internet explorer usage data:

[Livin in a box]

I think it's all very stupid.

[tunafish]

Why does Neowin still allow the same TWO trolls to continue posting in these topics, all they do is come here to spout their rubbish. It's getting beyond a joke now. All they do is degrade the quality of threads by arguing useless crap.

Im not going to point names or whatever but i bet anyone who has posted in this topic knows exactly who they are. No offence ment

[Mikee99]

These people (all the other browser makers) will never be satisfied.

Seriously, even if Microsoft announces tomorrow that they will officially stop developing IE and including it in Windows, they will still have something to complain about.

This is has gotten very ridiculous.

[ew2x4]

Nope. This shouldn't even be a requirement. It's just something you take for granted. Doing the very least they can is not good enough to restore competitionin the market.

Despite what you believe, the numbers actually prove the market is working itself out. No need for government interaction. http://marketshare.hitslink.com/default.aspx

Wrong. IE is still the dominant browser, and it's still holding back the web. Many sites still require IE!

Being dominant does not mean you're doing anything illegal. And the sites that require IE, that's because of lazy web designers. Not Microsoft. I would like them to be more for standards than they are now, but that doesn't mean they should be required to promote competitors.

What's laughable and ignorant is to misrepresent other people's position.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7834792.stm

In its statement on Friday the Commission said: "Microsoft's tying of Internet Explorer to the Windows operating system harms competition between web browsers, undermines product innovation and ultimately reduces consumer choice."

What was that you were saying?

So "new version" == "innovation"? Weird logic.

New versions that have new features are usually a result of innovation. Look at Google providing an open source protocol for push synchronization. That happen this week.

Let Mozilla explain:

"When the only real competition comes from a not for profit open source organization that depends on volunteers for almost half of its work product and nearly all of its marketing and distribution, while more than half a dozen other "traditional" browser vendors with better than I.E. products have had near-zero success encroaching on Microsoft I.E.'s dominance, there's a demonstrable tilt to the playing field. That tilt comes with the distribution channel - default status for the OS bundled Web browser."

"Near-zero" success is ridiculous. IE's share has dropped 10% in a little over a year. The data is everywhere. Maybe other people should educate themselves before feeding a myth.

Actually, Safari is bundled with Mac and despite this, it fails to gain much traction. The same is the case for Chrome, which remains at a relatively low market share despite Google pushing it heavily through all channels.

Safari's stagnation has to do with MS? It has nothing to do with their lame attempt at forcing a download through itunes? What about no worthy updates in a long time? Chrome has been steadily gaining market share. It was only released a year ago and it's between 3 and 7% depending on your source. How is that low by any means for a new product in an already saturated market?

[howb21]

I think being punished for being a highly recognised brand is really.....stupid.

If IE did not get so much market share, all these court cases would't have happened.

[Growled Member]

Some history:

Windows Internet Explorer (formerly Microsoft Internet Explorer; abbreviated to MSIE or, more commonly, IE), is a series of graphical web browsers developed by Microsoft and included as part of the Microsoft Windows line of operating systems starting in 1995. It has been the most widely used web browser since 1999(...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer

That proves that IE marketshare increased but it doesn't prove it increased because Microsoft bundled it in Windows.

[Miuku.]

Chrome has been steadily gaining market share. It was only released a year ago and it's between 3 and 7% depending on your source. How is that low by any means for a new product in an already saturated market?

Backed by a billion dollar company that's advertising it on the worlds most popular portal. Yes, I can barely understand how such a product could gain any traction.

[ew2x4]

Backed by a billion dollar company that's advertising it on the worlds most popular portal. Yes, I can barely understand how such a product could gain any traction.

How it's backed is irrelevant in my comment as he said one thing when it is obvious it is incorrect when you view the facts.

Besides, since when do people expect everything for free? Somethings take a lot of financial backing to be successful, period. If you're planning on entering an extremely saturated market such as the browser market, you better have financial backing whether it is through investors or a parent company if you want to advertise, hire a good staff, etc.

[O.G]

No I didn't. I quoted you with what you said. You said Microsoft weren't a monopoly, so I asked for proof. d_ralphie gave me proof and I appreciate that.

Odd, because what you quoted me as saying was actually posted by d_ralphie here, not me.

My point is though that the EU are targeting Microsoft because a lot of consumers have bought their operating system, resulting in their operating system being successful. If Microsoft had 10% market share, the EU would not be targeting them in this way. As it stands, Microsoft have around 90% market share in the operating system market, so the EU are targeting them in this way.

Ok, you're almost there. But, the EU is not targeting them because they are successful. The EU are targeting them because they are using their success in the OS market to gain an unfair advantage in the browser market, which is against EU competition law.

Part of my point is that Microsoft have done nothing illegal to gain this market share.

Well, except your wrong. EU competition law says you are wrong. Microsoft has used all sorts of anti-competitive tactics, from predator pricing to tying and everything in between. This is just another case of Microsoft doing what they like, mostly becuase they know they can pay the fine carry on and still turn a profit.

Are you saying companies shouldn't be allowed to become successful through legal means and if they do then they should be fined? If you are saying that then that is ridiculous.

No, what I am saying (well the EU, but I agree) is that companies shouldn't be allowed to become successful through illegal means. I know, you're going to say "but Microsoft has not done anything illegal", so see point 2.

[d_ralphie]

@howb21: No one is being punished for being successful. Microsoft is being punished for breaking the law. Pay attention already. Read the damn thread before commenting, and stop repeating Microsoft talking points.

These people (all the other browser makers) will never be satisfied.

Of course they will. You are just ignoring the facts, and throwing out Microsoft talking points. Can't be taken seriously.

Despite what you believe, the numbers actually prove the market is working itself out.

I'll just refer to Mozilla's point again:

"When the only real competition comes from a not for profit open source organization that depends on volunteers for almost half of its work product and nearly all of its marketing and distribution, while more than half a dozen other "traditional" browser vendors with better than I.E. products have had near-zero success encroaching on Microsoft I.E.'s dominance, there's a demonstrable tilt to the playing field. That tilt comes with the distribution channel - default status for the OS bundled Web browser."

Being dominant does not mean you're doing anything illegal.

No one said that either. That wasn't my point. How about trying to actually comprehend what people are writing?

And the sites that require IE, that's because of lazy web designers. Not Microsoft.

On the contrary, Microsoft consciously made IE incompatible, and the only way to do many things in IE was to rely on proprietary Microsoft technologies.

What was that you were saying?

Yay, quote mining. Just like Creationists. How about reading the full context?

New versions that have new features are usually a result of innovation. Look at Google providing an open source protocol for push synchronization. That happen this week.

It's just crazy talk to claim that all new versions of anything result in innovation.

"Near-zero" success is ridiculous. IE's share has dropped 10% in a little over a year.

Reading comprehension problems? He was referring to other browsers than Firefox. That was the whole point. That it took a non-profit organization relying on donations and free labor to make a dent shows just how broken the market is.

Chrome has been steadily gaining market share. It was only released a year ago and it's between 3 and 7% depending on your source.

No half credible source puts Chrome at 7%. 3% at best, and that is after a full year of constantly bombarding Google sites and millions of sites around the web with Chrome ads.

The only source I could find even close to 7% was W3Schools at 6.5%, but those stats are for that single site alone, a site that isn't representative of anything but itself. It's a small specialist site, and is irrelevant when talking about overall market share.

How is that low by any means for a new product in an already saturated market?

Less than 3% is extremely low for a product being pushed this heavily by one of the most powerful companies on the internet.

How it's backed is irrelevant in my comment as he said one thing when it is obvious it is incorrect when you view the facts.

This is just dishonest of you. As I pointed out, Chrome is being listed with a maximum of 3%, mostly well below that.

[shakey]

Should we all just start using IE in spite of such stupid request and laws????? Who's with me? ( I'm still using FF and I would have to switch to IE, but I hate everything about what is happening here )

There is no MS loyalty going on here, its all about a stupid law forcing a successful company to not bundle its own products with its own product. They wont enforce it on anyone else just due to market share, which is hypocritical and just stupid. I could care less what company is requesting it. If this was Microsoft saying apple should do it, or that firefox should bundle IE8 on their installs, I would be saying the same thing. Its about the stupid law and how its forcing a company to do something that I has no responsibility for and should never have.

Im going to give IE8 a week try, see if I can't make it my default browser for good..... this will be tough, but its the principle that matters.

Ralphie, give up on " its the law ". You sound like judge dredd/ stalone... The law only matters to those who blindly obey such laws.

[d_ralphie]

@shakey: What law are you referring to and how is it "stupid", exactly?

There is nothing hypocritical about having special rules for dominant companies, because their actions have a huge impact on the market, so they should obviously not be able to abuse their power.

Do these companies not realize that its going to come back and bite them in the end? They're just going to have to be as equal to others in their future products as they want Microsoft to be with them now.

They won't, if they don't break the law. Microsoft is in this situation because they broke the law.

To me, any company who tries to do this to another company (which i consider as unfair) looses and real credibility.

Tries to do what? It's the EU that's doing something to Microsoft, not other browser vendors. Other browser vendors have no authority what so ever.

Why not have a ballot screen on there as well? lol, sounds silly, because it is.

No, it sounds silly because Google/YouTube is not a monopoly.

[bryonhowley]

I am never using Firefox again, I'm uninstalling it right now.

I had been using Firefox with Windows for the fact IE8 seems a bit slow but no more. I have removed it and set my search to Bing. **** Firefox Opera and the rest.

[shakey]

@shakey: What law are you referring to and how is it "stupid", exactly?

There is nothing hypocritical about having special rules for dominant companies, because their actions have a huge impact on the market, so they should obviously not be able to abuse their power.

They won't, if they don't break the law. Microsoft is in this situation because they broke the law.

Tries to do what? It's the EU that's doing something to Microsoft, not other browser vendors. Other browser vendors have no authority what so ever.

No, it sounds silly because Google/YouTube is not a monopoly.

You sound like a lobbyist for Opera or the EU's ways. How old are you and have you ever tried to run your own business? Answer both, so we can get a good idea of your actual real world knowledge.... because what you say sounds like something a blind person who lives in a cave would say.... You are in the minority, as most can tell this is an unjust ruling.

http://hendrix.mozilla.org/

post what you think about their actions. Let them hear it. These forums are not the place to get anything really out there. I for one will be telling them my distaste and how I am going to not back their product until I see a change in it.

"Well, I really do love your web browser. It has been my default browser for so many years I have lost count. Which is why it saddens me I have to do this.

It has come to my attention that you have spoken up against how Microsoft is making and distributing their product. You apparently think it is necessary for a company to bundle other companies products on its own software. This was seen as a horrible decision when Opera first started it, and to know that you are behind it so much is just horrible.

Your browser has taken over IE8 in almost every aspect. There is not a single person I know personally, that does not use Firefox instead of IE8.

The ruling by the EU is unjust and for you to be behind it is something I will not support. As of today, I am stopping my use of your product, and will start using only IE8, as I feel they are being wronged. Until I see that you have correct such ways, I will boycott your product, and let others know as well. "

sent to mozilla

Edited August 19, 2009 by shakey

[d_ralphie]

@bAsKeT cAsE: Great argument there. An excellent example of the great arguments Microsoft cheerleaders always come up with.

@shakey: Another example of the excellent arguments MS cheerleaders come up with: "You are wrong, and that's that." Very convincing indeed :rolleyes:

I had been using Firefox with Windows for the fact IE8 seems a bit slow but no more. I have removed it and set my search to Bing. **** Firefox Opera and the rest.

You can't use Bing either. Microsoft filed antitrust complaints against Google, remember?

Guess you're stuck with Safari and Yahoo Search or something.

[d_ralphie]

If im a cheerleader for anything, its for fairness.

Fairness is breaking the law and getting away with it?

And what are you? You're obviously against Microsoft no matter what, which is kind sad.

So because I post factual information, correct misconceptions, and expose MS cheerleading, I'm "obviously against Microsoft no matter what"? Nonsense. You are just so blinded by your hatred of anyone who criticizes Microsoft that you can't even stay on-topic and discuss the actual case. Instead, you post lots nothing but personal attacks.

[shakey]

nice trolling.... next one will be reported. There is no favoritism, as already posted by many of us. If you want to stop reading our post and just replying with "your a fanboy", you will be treated as a troll.

And ralphie, we aren't here to convince you.... we are here for those with a brain to help them decide for themselves.

I wonder how much ralphie follows road laws..... for claiming others are hypocrites.... I bet we could throw it right back at you with such ease.

Edited August 19, 2009 by shakey

[d_ralphie]

ha you don't get it at all

Don't get what? I just refuted your claims, you responded with personal attacks. I responded again, and now you are saying I "don't get it"?

[Subject Delta]

Should we all just start using IE in spite of such stupid request and laws????? Who's with me?

Agreed. I am still using Opera despite my love for Windows, and I am not going to switch because of a stupid bunch of opera trolls starting their stupid "Boycott Opera" campaigns. I do however believe Microsoft are getting a bum rap from the EU

[d_ralphie]

If you are going to boycott anyone involved in antitrust cases, you have basically excluded any product from Mozilla, Opera, Google and Microsoft.

[Subject Delta]

Read my post properly, I am not going to boycott any products from anyone, I think boycotts are stupid. I may be an Opera user, but I am on Microsoft's side on this one, but I am not going to shoot myself in the foot and stop using a product that I enjoy just because the anti-opera trolls say I should.

[d_ralphie]

I know you aren't going to boycott anyone. I was pointing out to the boycott whiners that either they practice what they preach consistently, or they are hypocrites and liars.

As for being on Microsoft's side, they are continuing their abuse even today. So that doesn't sound very rational.

[Subject Delta]

No, I think you will find yourself to be the irrational one here. I am not as anti-microsoft as you are, so I wouldn't expect you to understand it, but there is a difference between liking Opera, and agreeing with everything the company does.