Should Turkey be allowed to join the EU?

[petrossa]

However, it says in both the Bible and the Qu'ran, that the East will rule the west i believe? Therefore, they will likely be allowed to join the Eu and will likely further press the agenda to make this biblical and religious prediction come true.

Nostredame says the west shall beat the arab/chinese and the west shall reign supreme in the end.

I predict Turkey will not be allowed in for a long while now. But France and Germany are not very much in favor because Turkey will have a to big stake, size wise it's exactly between Germany and France.

First rule of being in power: Don't let another powerful entity compete at the same rules as you because you risk loosing.

[petrossa]

Nice people the Turks, so tolerant a real asset to europe: http://www.ejpress.org/article/39510

quote:

ANKARA (AFP)---Turks have low tolerance for ethnic and religious diversity, believe non-Muslim minorities are not loyal to the country, and do not want them employed in state institutions, according to an opinion poll published in newspapers Wednesday.

The survey, conducted by the Frekans polling institution among 1,108 people between May and June, found that 57 percent of Turks did not want to live next door to an atheist, 42 percent to Jews and 35 percent to Christians.

Eighteen percent did not want a family from abroad as a neighbour.

[Panacik]

Nice people the Turks, so tolerant a real asset to europe: http://www.ejpress.org/article/39510

quote:

ANKARA (AFP)---Turks have low tolerance for ethnic and religious diversity, believe non-Muslim minorities are not loyal to the country, and do not want them employed in state institutions, according to an opinion poll published in newspapers Wednesday.

The survey, conducted by the Frekans polling institution among 1,108 people between May and June, found that 57 percent of Turks did not want to live next door to an atheist, 42 percent to Jews and 35 percent to Christians.

Eighteen percent did not want a family from abroad as a neighbour.

Im going to stand up for them in this case. The same could be said for most other countries in the world. Most people will feel happier, safer and more able to talk to people from the same race and\or religion as their own.

I dont feel this makes Turkey any worse or any more or less extream than their other Islamic counterparts.

That being said, they too have their fair share of Islamic extreamists and bombings in the name of Islam. So for this reason i would not like them allowance to join the EU.

[splur]

This has nothing to do with how nice Turkish people are or their history. And petvas, you're obviously bias. If they were all rampaging buffoons, we'd notice. If they joined the EU, they'd probably be forced to give back that land to Cyprus anyways considering no one recognizes the Turkish state. Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.

Turkey needs to change their policies to abide by EU regulations and law, which isn't saying blindly follow rules. Actually understand the idea behind democracy, free market, civil and political rights, and stable economic development. I'd be very surprised if they ever manage to pull that off. Religion aside, I think people are scared of the fact that Turkey borders the middle east. It'd be opening the floodgates if they bring Turkey into the EU without strict regulations about borders.

[petrossa]

This has nothing to do with how nice Turkish people are or their history. And petvas, you're obviously bias. If they were all rampaging buffoons, we'd notice. If they joined the EU, they'd probably be forced to give back that land to Cyprus anyways considering no one recognizes the Turkish state. Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.

Turkey needs to change their policies to abide by EU regulations and law, which isn't saying blindly follow rules. Actually understand the idea behind democracy, free market, civil and political rights, and stable economic development. I'd be very surprised if they ever manage to pull that off. Religion aside, I think people are scared of the fact that Turkey borders the middle east. It'd be opening the floodgates if they bring Turkey into the EU without strict regulations about borders.

With a true secular government there would be less of a problem. Don't forget the whole idea of Turkey joining was born in the time it had a secularist government.?

But when AKP won by a landslide it became obvious that islam had very strong foundations in the population. That in fact the only truly secular Turks where the higher educated ones.

And after when the EU handed secularity's head on platter to the AKP by demanding less military influence (the most secular part of Turkey's population) the road to full theocracy was open.

So the poll is alarming because it shows a typical islamic POV towards multiculturalism, no jews, no christians actually no other religions. You have to read the poll results well:

An overwhelming majority of Turks don't want another religion as neighbour, a minority doesn't want anyone as neighbour.

And that last part is the general xenophobic reaction found in other countries.

[Spyder Veteran]

If Iran invaded Turkey from behind do you think Greece would help?

[petrossa]

Turkey thinks ahead: http://news.am/en/news/5484.html

Armenia is considered a part of Turkey in new Turkish textbooks, Turkish Ekolay website reports, posting the map.

The CDs with egregious errors are inserted in manuals of Istanbul schools. In particular, Armenia, North Iraq (Mosul, Kirkuk), West Thrace (part of Bulgaria), Greek part of South Cyprus, the part of Georgia, including Batumi and Nakhchivan found themselves part of Turkey.

[Petvas]

If Iran invaded Turkey from behind do you think Greece would help?

100 years ago probably, but not anymore. Nobody wants a war

[Sandor]

How about a trade.

Turkey joins while the UK leaves...that would be super.

[GuJu]

isnt Turkey in Asia?

European Union....

[petrossa]

isnt Turkey in Asia?

European Union....

Officially it's the middle east.

[petrossa]

Food for thought, Turkey and religious minorities

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/oct/0...ous-minorities/

[petrossa]

Another day, another good deed: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-10/...nt_12196496.htm

Czech President Klaus may obstruct Lisbon Treaty:

The office of Czech head of state on Thursday declined to comment on the reports that President Vaclav Klaus may raise another condition for signing Lisbon Treaty.

Swedish diplomats reported on Thursday that in a phone conversation with Swedish Prime Minister Fredrik Reinfelt, Klaus mentioned that he would like to add two sentences about human rights to the document. Then, if the Czech Constitutional Court approves the agreement, he will reportedly sign.

Klaus's spokesman Radim Ochvat only confirmed that the phone talk took place and that it focused on Czech ratification of the treaty. It was Reinfeldt who initiated the phone conversation with Klaus on Thursday, he added.

The spokesman of Czech Prime Minister Fischer also declined to explain Klaus's position.

Without Klaus's signature, the treaty cannot come into power before end of 2009 as planned. The other head of state, whose approval has been missing, Polish Lech Kaczynski, will reportedly sign on coming Saturday.

What should these two sentences say exactly, is not clear. But such a step may allay the Klaus' fear of losing face if he, a staunch opponent of the treaty, will have to sign it against his will.

Leader of Czech Social Democrats (CSSD) Jiri Paroubek said that adding a new clause to a treaty could be acceptable if it did not mean reopening of the ratification process in the other states.

[petrossa]

another take on the same story: http://www.europeanvoice.com/article/2009/...tion/66109.aspx

Czech president wants a footnote added to the treaty before he will sign it.

Czech President V?clav Klaus has asked for a footnote to be added to the Lisbon treaty before he will sign the Czech Republic's ratification document.

Klaus told Frederik Reinfeldt, Sweden's prime minister and president of the European Council, that he wanted the footnote added in a telephone call on Thursday evening to discuss the next steps for implementing the Lisbon treaty.

Reinfeldt told Klaus: “This is the wrong message at the wrong time.”

He said that Klaus was not “clear” about the nature of the footnote but said that it related to the Charter of Fundamental Rights. Any change which would alter the legal implications of the charter or the treaty would need to be agreed by all 27 EU governments and would require a new round of ratification.

Gotta love the guy. I'd vote for him as president for the United States of Europe :laugh::

[White Cuban]

i was in turkey not long ago and discussed this with a few friends, i think not, the turkish economy isn't comparble to the EU economy, the moment people in turkey get those passports, they're all going to move out to other places to make their fortune in richer countries, it will just lower turkey's GDP even more, and result in huge immigration to EU country's.

[petrossa]

Yesterday morning i was listening to the radio, seems the population of Istanbul has tripled over the past years.

Almost all come from the black Sea region , or the Anatolian mountains.

The piece was about the problems of migration of unschooled, uneducated peasants with strict religious views to the cosmopolitan society of Istanbul.

Funny thing was, the original habitants of the city main complaint was the reintroduction of islam in public life.

[backdrifter]

Wow, so much hatred in this thread I almost had a little stomachache reading it...

As a Turkish citizen I would really like to join EU, not because I would take my stuff and move to Berlin the next day, but I would like EU laws and democracy to settle down more on here. That being said though, as a country with muslims as a majority, I think this is as good as it gets. I'm an atheist as well as many of my friends and we hadn't have any issues about our lack of faith. I can't claim that everywhere on Turkey is the same, but if you choose your city well, you can live the life you want (just like anywhere else in the world)

I can definitely see where the haters are coming from, but generally speaking, isolating "others" never work in the real world. Despite my own wishes, I also can't say EU should allow Turkey, I mean if I were living in Finland, I also wouldn't want to share my establishments with the wild, filthy Turks. But with this much hate and anger, it's obvious that less educated Turks will fall down to higher level radicalism. I sincerely want to be an EU citizen someday because I feel closer to their way of democracy but it's just getting harder to feel like that as I see more and more hate from them.

[petrossa]

Wow, so much hatred in this thread I almost had a little stomachache reading it...

As a Turkish citizen I would really like to join EU, not because I would take my stuff and move to Berlin the next day, but I would like EU laws and democracy to settle down more on here. That being said though, as a country with muslims as a majority, I think this is as good as it gets. I'm an atheist as well as many of my friends and we hadn't have any issues about our lack of faith. I can't claim that everywhere on Turkey is the same, but if you choose your city well, you can live the life you want (just like anywhere else in the world)

I can definitely see where the haters are coming from, but generally speaking, isolating "others" never work in the real world. Despite my own wishes, I also can't say EU should allow Turkey, I mean if I were living in Finland, I also wouldn't want to share my establishments with the wild, filthy Turks. But with this much hate and anger, it's obvious that less educated Turks will fall down to higher level radicalism. I sincerely want to be an EU citizen someday because I feel closer to their way of democracy but it's just getting harder to feel like that as I see more and more hate from them.

I feel for you. It's pretty unnerving to have to suffer by the misdeeds of fellow countryman you don't even share the religion with.

Apart from posts from people with personal issues such the greek/turkey age old feud, most posts here don't have anything against Turks as a people, but against their religion; Also the radical Grey wolves http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Wolves are very active in europe, because due to the freedom of speech they can have their headquarters in the Netherlands.

All in all, you should feel sorry for those in the free world which suffer the consequences of your less than tolerant islamic countrymen.

Take some time, look at crime rates (including abuse of woman) per country of origin in Germany and Holland and you'll see that it really gives a very sad picture of Turks.

The problem was, that back in the days, the uneducated mostly illiterate Turks emigrated bringing their backward religious codes with them which planted the seeds for present day problems.

I'm sure in that time Turkey was well glad to be rid of them, but now your government must take responsibility.

To me, it's Karma.

[backdrifter]

I feel for you. It's pretty unnerving to have to suffer by the misdeeds of fellow countryman you don't even share the religion with.

Apart from posts from people with personal issues such the greek/turkey age old feud, most posts here don't have anything against Turks as a people, but against their religion; Also the radical Grey wolves http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Wolves are very active in europe, because due to the freedom of speech they can have their headquarters in the Netherlands.

All in all, you should feel sorry for those in the free world which suffer the consequences of your less than tolerant islamic countrymen.

Take some time, look at crime rates (including abuse of woman) per country of origin in Germany and Holland and you'll see that it really gives a very sad picture of Turks.

The problem was, that back in the days, the uneducated mostly illiterate Turks emigrated bringing their backward religious codes with them which planted the seeds for present day problems.

I'm sure in that time Turkey was well glad to be rid of them, but now your government must take responsibility.

To me, it's Karma.

The problem is both sides of the religion vs. secularism duality have their own share of problems. The problem about religious governments are obvious but in Turkey, secularists always rely on army intervention because they know that with democratic elections, fundamentalists would always win. But it's pretty stupid and plain wrong to wait anything from the army and Turkey has a bad past about this. 2 coups and numerous attempts with big damage on people.

I'm all for democracy and free elections which Turkey had been doing well for last couple of times. But when your people are poor and the parties are not well inspected, a party can significantly raise its vote by giving help to poor before elections.

All I'm saying is it's not only about religion, it's not only about the economy but it's a messy combination of all. There is no easy fix for this. And isolation is the worst that can happen during a recovery period as it pushes the people further and further away into darkness. The government had been working hard in foreign policies lately (the cypress referendum and the normalization treaty with Armenia yesterday) and I hope all of us will be cooperating more in the future around here.

[petrossa]

All I'm saying is it's not only about religion, it's not only about the economy but it's a messy combination of all. There is no easy fix for this. And isolation is the worst that can happen during a recovery period as it pushes the people further and further away into darkness. The government had been working hard in foreign policies lately (the cypress referendum and the normalization treaty with Armenia yesterday) and I hope all of us will be cooperating more in the future around here.

Erdokan has a double agenda is our fear. His snubbing Israel of late doesn't help.

http://www.meforum.org/2047/islamists-approach-europe

In the name of democratic reforms, as European diplomats have observed, the AKP has reduced the secular impact of the army, defamed judicial defense of the constitution as a "judicial coup," expanded the Imam Hatip religious schools and equated them to secular schools, and fired university presidents. Too many in the West praise the AKP as "moderate Islamic." The only difference, however, between moderate and jihadist Islamists is the use of the ballot box instead of violence to come to power. It may be important to include Islamists in democracy but certainly not with the Western naive notion that inclusion will tame Islamism. This is the lesson that should be drawn from Hamas in Gaza, Hezbollah in Lebanon, and certain Islamist parties in Iraq.

Next to that Germany and France don't want a third major power in the EU. They will go to any length to stop Turkey from joining.

Germany: 82 million

Turkey: 76 million

France: 64 million

[ylcard]

I'm all for them to be in the EU, I like Turkey despite the recent mess up with my country..

Major power ? We're over the WWII era mate, I doubt people are planning on taking over the world..

[petrossa]

I'm all for them to be in the EU, I like Turkey despite the recent mess up with my country..

Major power ? We're over the WWII era mate, I doubt people are planning on taking over the world..

Seats in the parliament are allocated by population size. By Turkey's size they'd get a lot. France doesn't want that.

[ylcard]

Oh, I see, I don't know much about the way the EU works, since I'm from Israel ^^

That made much more sense to me now :)

[backdrifter]

I don't think that's the major reason EU rejects Turkey. To put it simply, if EU proposed that they would allow Turkey to join but get a smaller share on the parliament, I don't think that would be a huge issue. They are also actively defending that free circulation (idk if that's the right term or not) should not be given to Turkey even if they are taken as a member one day.

[qdave]

No it has no place in EU.