New College policy towards Macs

[dyn]

Not really our main guy at IT support just knows about Windows and a bit about Macs and we can't really afford someone just to manage 25 Macs.

In other words, management is to blame as they made a completely wrong decision. You don't buy stuff your IT department is not able to support because that will be too costly. If they don't understand what's going on and how to resolve this they will most likely hire some company who does and they don't come cheap. Now they have problems they should investigate and resolve them as you'd normally do. Calling new purchases off is not a good management decision, it would have been a lot better if those purchases were put on hold. Seems to me management is not really capable of doing what a management should be doing.

[Nicholas-c Veteran]

Mac's at colleges suck. Not sure why, but they really do, the ones at my old college were slower than my old PC several years ago, yet when i bought myself one its faster than my previous PC.

Only real reason could be windows based network (which generally, any UK education network SUCKS and is 100% hackable without trying) conflicting and slowing down the macs.

Also ?45k for 25 macs is a very BAD deal. Think the whole chinese whispers thing has gone on... Apparently the "HHT's" we use at work (about ?300-400 worth hardware, tops) at ?4k ea;) ;)

[Tech Star]

I think your school ****ed with the software and made it unstable. Re-install OSX and then install the other software that is needed one by one and see if it goes unstable.

I am thinking that there may be two or more softwares conflicting with one another when they are running.

[Elliott]

Your school must have some really bad setups on those Macs. I've seen Macs behave poorly, and it's because the administrators didn't know what the hell they were doing.

My Macs run incredible well. My MBP has been up for 10 days because 10 days ago I had to restart for a software update. I've only ever had a Mac kernel panic once, and it was because of some crappy third party RAM.

[zhangm Supervisor]

For everyone saying "My Mac is the best thing ever, totally stable, never crashes, runs like a demon, praise Apple...", that's nice, but the lab is a different environment, with several unique challenges. Deployment is one, and it links most of the other issues together. If you want to image a set of machines, better make sure that your software licenses will play along nicely. If they don't, expect the software to work on one machine at any given time, even if you have bought 25 licenses *cough* Adobe *cough*. Some settings also will not translate between different machines. Even a few of Apple's own plists encode the UUID or MAC address of the machine on which it was made - and those won't work on other computers. You have to script a find and replace for all those plists if you're using a managment system like Radmind.

I'm not pointing out that Macs are inherently bad, or that this was even a bad choice (ok, maybe I am for that last one), but there are certainly circumstances in which these machines will fall over on their faces, and it doesn't make sense to compare personal at home experiences to woes in a larger multi-user environment.

[Simon Veteran]

Having experienced the fun of dancing around software protection policies, I have to mention here that the software doesn't need to be pirated to be mucking up the system. One classic case is Adobe CS packages. Absolutely awful, and essentially requires that all users have administrative rights unless you actually modify both the installer and applications. It just doesn't play nice in a lab setting.

Well my point is that pirated apps often aren't kept up to date.

And there is a lot of legitimately awful software for all OS's. If we knew what software you were using, it'd help

If it's free/open source stuff, it's probably ported from Linux, and that tends to be unstable/unnatural on OS X without a lot of work (imo).

[DrCheese]

Only real reason could be windows based network (which generally, any UK education network SUCKS and is 100% hackable without trying) conflicting and slowing down the macs.

Thanks, it's really nice to have my job insulted. Cheers for that. You need to realise that IT staff working in a school deal with the some of the most hostile users possible and many of them do their best given the limited resources available to them. In a business anyone attempting to "be l33t hack0rz" would be fired/written up whereas in a school they have to put up with it. Sure there are some really incompetent school IT Departments, but it's the same in any sector so it's not fair to insult us all.

I don't see how a windows network running along side the mac's would "conflict and slow down the macs" in any way. If mac's can't interact with Windows servers without crashing horribly then it's OSX that is at fault, not Windows.

But yes, If the school really wanted mac's they should have done a lot more testing before buying a whole suites worth! To be honest tho, a lot of what you can get on a mac can be bought for Windows as well nowadays, so I question why they would want to run Mac's along side the existing Windows network anyway, it's a lot of extra headache to support an entirely separate platform just for only a few systems and we've turned down the "odd mac" for exactly that reason.

One classic case is Adobe CS packages. Absolutely awful, and essentially requires that all users have administrative rights unless you actually modify both the installer and applications. It just doesn't play nice in a lab setting.

Yeah it's a right pain, a lot of it assumes your an administrator (even today) so requires a bit of hacking about with to work correctly with restricted access. (We've just bought CS4 to replace our old Macromedia MX 2004 at work) We had a problem with the licensing engine that was a result of this thinking that we've now solved, but it is somewhat frustrating that a pirated user wouldn't have had the same issue we had.

Edited November 9, 2009 by DrCheese

[JoeyF]

I work at a high school in the IT department, and we've about had it with Macs. The problem is that we use only Dells, and than someone somehow got some money and bought a number of iMacs without asking us first. Trying to add Macintosh computers to an otherwise completely windows-based environment is just asking for disaster:

- Macs can not be easily imaged without a Netboot Server (leaving the much easier and more universal PXE out of the question)

- Macs can not easily be remotely monitored without purchasing Apple Remote Desktop, most other management systems don't support Macs

- Macs can not be managed through Group Policy without buying special third-party software

- Software and Upgrade deployment involves going to every computer with a CD, instead of just using a central deployment system

To me, it just doesn't seem that Macs are great computers to add to a primarily Windows-based network, it will increase the workload of IT greatly. In education, the IT department is usually stressed out enough to begin with (students breaking stuff, insignificant budgets, understaffing), so the amount of attention that Macs require is just way higher than what an educational IT department can provide.

[Growled Member]

It takes time to learn a new OS, no matter what you currently use. It makes no sense to me to introduce Macs to a group of Windows users who obviously aren't going to know how to use them properly. Every IT department is not going to know how to admin every OS out there proficiently.

Besides that, Windows is the commonly used OS and is the one most users will face when they move from the uni to the work place. Give them training on the OS they will be using in the real world.

[Madoshi]

at my old school, they had a lab of 25 Core Duo iMacs running Tiger, with an Xserve in the closet, and an HP Color LaserJet networked to the Macs (and a CAD Lab full of XP SP3 PCs). the Macs were setup so that all users had their own accounts on the Xserve.

OS lockups, the spinning beachball cursor, Photoshop's inability to print directly to the printer (had to use Preview?) and a couple bad screens. Firefox installed but won't launch (already running), they had some very old version of IE installed and running under Rosetta for the school's computerized attendance system.

i blame 80% of it on the fact that they were networked

[toadeater]

The only time I've seen HPs that were more reliable than Macs was during a short acid trip to Bizarro Land a few years back. Maybe Apple's QA has declined since then, but I doubt it has declined THAT much. My guess is the IT staff doesn't know what they're doing.

[DrCheese]

and than someone somehow got some money and bought a number of iMacs without asking us first.

ow the finance manager needs a slap for authorising that without checking with you guys first... not only that but the guy who "ordered" them needs taking to task for trying in the first place. You really need the backup of SMT for that tho, if you don't have it then there's no way in heck can you be expected to support software/hardware that you've not purchased. There is little point in having an onsite IT department if they just go over it's head whenever they want flashy new toys.

Macs can not be managed through Group Policy without buying special third-party software

If you must keep them, you can buy an el cheapo mac mini with OSX server installed and tie it into your AD. Then you can create the OSX version of group policy on the mac's yet still auth them against your AD.

To me, it just doesn't seem that Macs are great computers to add to a primarily Windows-based network, it will increase the workload of IT greatly. In education, the IT department is usually stressed out enough to begin with (students breaking stuff, insignificant budgets, understaffing), so the amount of attention that Macs require is just way higher than what an educational IT department can provide.

Pretty much, the extra workload of supporting an entirely different platform is beyond the resources of most educational IT departments. As I said above there is very little point when the software is also out for Windows and if not, there's usually an alternative. The *only* piece of software I can think of the top of my head that may be required for media students to learn that is OSX is final cut pro, as it's an industry standard.

There is also no way I could justify the increased costs of mac's (even with educational discount)

[Justin-]

Yep, sounds like a Mac to me. Same experience. They far from "not crashing" as all the BS ads are portraying Windows.

Finally smart logic. They should just dump all of them and get 3 times more PCs with Windows 7 and be done with it.

lol With how much time I spend on Mac and Windows, there's a much greater percentage that my Mac will crash than my Windows 7 PC will crash (I use 7 at home and work). Heck, the other day my Mac completely froze and I had to hard reboot it. It's a year old. I've not had that happen with Windows since ... ... ... it's been months. Maybe more than a year.

That said, I like my Mac. It's great. Mac OS will never replace Windows PCs in the corporate world though, unless they learn to play better with Windows Servers (among a great many other things). Snow Leopard is a tiny step in the right direction with Exchange 2007 support... but they have a long way to go.

I'm a Mac. And a PC. :) I use them both equally at home. I slightly prefer 7 over OS X, but I like them both about the same.

[zhangm Supervisor]

Thanks, it's really nice to have my job insulted. Cheers for that. You need to realise that IT staff working in a school deal with the some of the most hostile users possible and many of them do their best given the limited resources available to them. In a business anyone attempting to "be l33t hack0rz" would be fired/written up whereas in a school they have to put up with it. Sure there are some really incompetent school IT Departments, but it's the same in any sector so it's not fair to insult us all.

Actually, after working a few years at a pretty awesome undergraduate institution, I have to say, the users were never a huge headache. We let them do pretty much anything they wanted, pushed out software on request, sometimes within 24 hours (I was usually happy to entertain requests for simple software/updates), kept things up to date, and would install software for them on a one-off basis. We never saw a huge amount of abuse in return - why try and push the limits of the system when there pretty much aren't any?

Yeah it's a right pain, a lot of it assumes your an administrator (even today) so requires a bit of hacking about with to work correctly with restricted access. (We've just bought CS4 to replace our old Macromedia MX 2004 at work) We had a problem with the licensing engine that was a result of this thinking that we've now solved, but it is somewhat frustrating that a pirated user wouldn't have had the same issue we had.

After around CS3, I started to joke that we should just install a pirated version. After all, we were a paying customer, had the software licenses, and weren't getting any support from Adobe (we actually ordered their CS4 Deployment Toolkit, and they sent us the Windows version). They had our money and we had nothing but headaches from their software. I never did figure out the issue where the first launch of Photoshop CS4 would trigger a license-related crash, and all subsequent launches would work perfectly...

[Scorbing]

They claimed that they were the least reliable computer they'd ever used

They are idiots if they think such a thing about a Mac. I am a Windows user and I also own a Mac and they are not rocket science. Snow Leopard is rock solid and I haven't had a single issue with it. It is my first Mac and I already know how to use it and learned a lot in the 3 weeks I have had it.

People are just so used to things being "easy" that they don't want to spend the time to learn anything new.

[zagor]

They are idiots if they think such a thing about a Mac. I am a Windows user and I also own a Mac and they are not rocket science. Snow Leopard is rock solid and I haven't had a single issue with it. It is my first Mac and I already know how to use it and learned a lot in the 3 weeks I have had it.

People are just so used to things being "easy" that they don't want to spend the time to learn anything new.

Well, I guess you are calling several of my co-workers idiots as well.

If that's what they are experiencing with their computers I don't see why they should be insulted. After all, they are just voicing what they experience.

You having some great experience with SL doesn't mean other people have the same experience and it doesn't make them idiots. You should go over the original post again. They are not claiming it is hard to use SL, they are rather claming Macs are unreliable.

Edited November 9, 2009 by zagor

[DrCheese]

Actually, after working a few years at a pretty awesome undergraduate institution

Yeah, our post 16 students are fine (16 - 18) but it's the younger ones who try to play the system (11-16). It's better to be as relaxed as you can with it i.e don't have a crazy webfilter in place or ban students from doing simple things like right click just because you can (I've seen this at one school...) but at the same time you can't take your eye off the ball as there's always one or two who will try to take more.

After around CS3, I started to joke that we should just install a pirated version.

nice to know I wasn't the only one :p It wasn't something I'd ever seriously consider but when your banging your head against the wall due to a licensing error it does annoy you :p

[Scorbing]

Well, I guess you are calling several of my co-workers idiots as well.

If that's what they are experiencing with their computers I don't see why they should be insulted. After all, they are just voicing what they experience.

No insult intended. Let me tell you this:

I ALWAYS thought a mac was the most evil thing in the world. To me, there was nothing out there better than a PC and Windows. I thought of Windows as a God. It was it. Mac were an unnecesary evil and the worst machines in the world. I never could understand what the big deal was with them. I found them hard to learn and hard to understand so guess what? One day I said to myself "I am getting one. Fu.... it. Let's try it." so I got one.

They are VERY different machines yes. Different in every way to Windows. Windows is idiot-proof (no offense intended, I use Windows too). Mac OSX is not idiot-proof. It takes some time to get used to but its not rocket science. My high school used Macs and still use them. The teachers loved them and still do. They are efficient and powerful machines. All you have to do is learn and get used to them. That's all.

Macs are as reliable as PCs. They are no different. Macs use the same hardware PCs use.

** I apologize for the "idiots" thing. No harm intended. **

[cybertimber2008]

They are idiots if they think such a thing about a Mac.

Ok... now here is what I see wrong with your opinion.

Hadron collider. It worked for a few days, then broke. Nearing restart, a piece of bread shuts down the most complex machine on Earth. People comment on news stories that the billion dollar machine should be shut down because its flawed and worthless. They have only seen failure, no positive result. Their opinion is based on their short experience.

In this environment, they've only seen things not working as expected, and want to scrap it. The problem is, they aren't giving it a chance to had problems worked out. Do they really have time to? I dunno.

But you can't say their opinion is wrong because YOU have had more time and a different experience using a Mac.

[mbtx__]

- Software and Upgrade deployment involves going to every computer with a CD, instead of just using a central deployment system

Mac OS X Server mixed with the Apple Remote Desktop management package that you mentioned earlier in your posts give you the ability to remotely upgrade and install software, as well as deploy Software Updates through a single central deployment system.

[drshdw]

I work at a high school in the IT department, and we've about had it with Macs. The problem is that we use only Dells, and than someone somehow got some money and bought a number of iMacs without asking us first. Trying to add Macintosh computers to an otherwise completely windows-based environment is just asking for disaster:

- Macs can not be easily imaged without a Netboot Server (leaving the much easier and more universal PXE out of the question)

- Macs can not easily be remotely monitored without purchasing Apple Remote Desktop, most other management systems don't support Macs

- Macs can not be managed through Group Policy without buying special third-party software

- Software and Upgrade deployment involves going to every computer with a CD, instead of just using a central deployment system

To me, it just doesn't seem that Macs are great computers to add to a primarily Windows-based network, it will increase the workload of IT greatly. In education, the IT department is usually stressed out enough to begin with (students breaking stuff, insignificant budgets, understaffing), so the amount of attention that Macs require is just way higher than what an educational IT department can provide.

ARD is like $300 unlimited for EDUs..

3 of the 4 things above can be solved with a cheap Mac Mini Server.

[WatchTheSoup]

Well I'll give a little background info first, during the summer my college bought 25 new Macs for a the new Media suite. Apparently we spent close to ?40k (does this sound about right, not sure of the exact specs). Anyway for the last few weeks students and teachers alike have began steadily more frustrated with them. They claimed that they were the least reliable computer they'd ever used or that was the general feeling we were getting. I thought this didn't sound right so I went to try once for myself (as I'm doing Computing I can get in to the Media suite). I was surprised it wasn't some joke they were dreadful, the crashed every ten minutes or so, very disappointed Apple :-(

Anyway now the Principal has gotten involved, we spent so much on these and there totally unusable, the rest of our campus use HPs and Senior Management is annoyed that we colud have bought so many more HPs with the money we "wasted" (not use of the "s) on the Macs, overall there's a huge shortage of computers across the campus with every computer in the Library nearly always in use and a room full of macs being unused, seems a bit of a waste. Anyway our Principal has made his decision, the plans for two more Mac powered Media suites called off and we not allowed any more Macs period. Were not sure what's going to happen to the ones we already have, some of the computing teachers are saying they'll being removed next week, belief that when I see it.

My school Macs are just as ****ty. Not to mention 25% of the Macs suffered hardware problems all in the same month.

Macs are good if you aren't going to be doing anything advanced on it. Once you add them to a large network, **** happens. And it's bad. Random lockups, crashes, Finder completely disappearing, Firefox not working, etc. the list goes on and on and on...

Edited November 10, 2009 by WatchTheSoup

[MasterC]

For some reason, I find it hard to believe that all 25 Macs are having issues at the same time. My school has tons of Mac labs (and an equal number of PC labs), and we've never had problems with them. The only thing I can think of is if your school bought from a reseller, and they somehow messed things up? But even that is a little far fetched.

[acnpt]

They need to get apple, or contractors in. I think apple would be more helpful if they are loosing sales.

I went to one of the largest colleges in the UK, with large tech support dept split over hq + campuses, so I guess that's why our macs worked fine :p

Also HP in education? I always thought the norm was Dell, RM or Stone.

[Techie Techerton]

I would take one of the Macs out of the mix and uninstall one app at a time. If you find out what program is causing these problems, do the same to the rest. If problem still persists, do a clean install of the OS. If reinstall of OS doesn't fix problem... could be a hardware or network issue.

/2 c