A better linux for the future

[Kalint]

First off, I have never used linux before (Don't hit me). I am a Windows C# and ASP.NET programmer (Don't hit me). A buddy of mine recently wanted me to do a project with him but it was done in Ubuntu.

I am actually pretty impressed with the level of effort that went into it but then I got thinking, if linux is to become more mainstream how to make it better?

Here's a couple ideas I came up with.

• Universal Installation Program - .Run, .Sh., etc. needs some form of terminal use. Terminal is very powerful but to families out there they wont care. Imagine an 80 year old person having to use terminal to install a .sh program!
  
• Less Terminal Use!!! - Again yes terminal is very powerful but the less a general user (or at all) has to use the happier the masses will be right! It's about utility here right! Greatest good for the greatest number!
  
• Less Tux Jargon! - holy hell guys! When installing ubuntu I was learning japanese at the same time! Please always use the full name then maybe in parenthesis show what it is.
  

What's your ideas! And please no ohhhh just go here and get this. This is about out of the "box" just installed.

Annnnnnnd GO!

[Pretzel]

Less Terminal Use!!! - Again yes terminal is very powerful but the less a general user (or at all) has to use the happier the masses will be right! It's about utility here right! Greatest good for the greatest number!

Nobody's stopping you from creating a GUI frontend for whatever tools you need. :p

Less Tux Jargon! - holy hell guys! When installing ubuntu I was learning japanese at the same time! Please always use the full name then maybe in parenthesis show what it is.

Remember: Google is your friend. :laugh:

I do admit though, those are some good ideas. :)

[markwolfe Veteran]

First off, I have never used linux before (Don't hit me). I am a Windows C# and ASP.NET programmer (Don't hit me). A buddy of mine recently wanted me to do a project with him but it was done in Ubuntu.

I am actually pretty impressed with the level of effort that went into it but then I got thinking, if linux is to become more mainstream how to make it better?

Here's a couple ideas I came up with.

• Universal Installation Program - .Run, .Sh., etc. needs some form of terminal use. Terminal is very powerful but to families out there they wont care. Imagine an 80 year old person having to use terminal to install a .sh program!
  
• Less Terminal Use!!! - Again yes terminal is very powerful but the less a general user (or at all) has to use the happier the masses will be right! It's about utility here right! Greatest good for the greatest number!
  
• Less Tux Jargon! - holy hell guys! When installing ubuntu I was learning japanese at the same time! Please always use the full name then maybe in parenthesis show what it is.
  

What's your ideas! And please no ohhhh just go here and get this. This is about out of the "box" just installed.

Annnnnnnd GO!

Universal program installation? Then you complain about terminals. I think you mean you want a GUI installation. Your wish was granted many years ago. You don't need to manually run shell scripts for nearly all Linux apps. Use synaptic. (Y)

Less terminal use. Tell me what you *had* to use the terminal for. Chances are it was optional. And actually, using the terminal provides commonality, reduces error and speeds things up. One cannot copy and paste a set of GUI instructions (click start, select control panel, double-click add/remove programs...), but copying a "apt-get remove celestia" into a terminal is error-proof (no typos, no clicking, no tedious barrage of instructions often accompanied by unnecessary screenshots). It is also the same, regardless when I use fluxbox for my UI, and someone else chooses KDE. So it is POWERFUL and OPTIONAL. Not sure what the complaint is, if you don't have to use it.

Less jargon. Well, cannot help with that one. :p I wish Windows didn't have REGEDIT hkey localmachine 47d81d87a5fe5ec7a56a93. When hex codes are presented to the user, I would find it hard to say that the instructions are exactly "80 year old grandpa" ready, either. ;)

I like Linux. It is usable for everyday computing for a great many people. I don't push it on people, or bring it up as a conversation point. It just suits me. :)

[markwolfe Veteran]

Hmmm... I didn't mean to kill the thread. :p

While I believe that your first two statements don't really hold water, I don't want anyone to infer that I was saying there are no points to discuss.

To keep discussion going, let me state what I see as needed for Linux to get better. More support from hardware OEMs. While Linux may be more compatible with more hardware than Windows, there are still gaps -unfortunately, right in some of the commodity consumer hardware. Many of these may be supported through some sort of manual patch/config on the user's part. And this extra work to setup is usually because hardware vendors don't write Linux drivers; the community often has to take this up, themselves.

Not sure how much more the Linux community can do to get OEMs to climb on board. Several Linux Kernel developers (not just average random schmucks in the community) have offered to write the drivers for the OEMs. And even do so under an NDA, so that any 'trade secrets' would be protected.

[ichi]

Regarding the "universal installation program", while we already have the package manager to do just that it would also be convenient if sh and bin installers worked without going down to the terminal.

To be fair they do work, but not consistently. You still can find some scenarios where clicking on a run file (even with proper execute permisions) doesn't launch the installer, and you have to open a terminal and lauch ./whatever.run. Easy, but not optimal.

Also I'd like some more work being done to support 3G dongles. Properly.

If they work fine with wvdial there's no reason why you should have to do any sort of tweak (even if it's small) to get them to work through the connection manager.

Another nice improvement would be being able to recover all your apps from an X crash. I haven't had any of those for years, but I know that if it ever happened I'd lose my work.

Considering that support for that feature is already there, it'd be cool if it was actually used.

[Growled Member]

I'm actually against doing things to go mainstream. I'm not against improvements but Linux is just different from Windows and people who want to switch should either accept that or roll their own version.

[Mouldy Punk]

Universal Installation Program - .Run, .Sh., etc. needs some form of terminal use. Terminal is very powerful but to families out there they wont care. Imagine an 80 year old person having to use terminal to install a .sh program!

I'm pretty sure Gnome (probably other frontends) allow you to simple double click to execute files like this. You might need to do a right click -> properties -> permissions -> make executable (or whatever the exact steps are) first...but I'm 99% sure you can do it (can't test it, the only linux box I've got at the moment is all the way downstairs and I don't care enough to go down and try it :p I can't remember what distro it was (maybe they all do now?) but I remember I used to have a "Run in Terminal" option on the right click menu which would run shell and binary files properly too.

Less Tux Jargon! - holy hell guys! When installing ubuntu I was learning japanese at the same time! Please always use the full name then maybe in parenthesis show what it is.

When I first started out with linux/unix, I was baffled by there being no C drive and instead there were all sorts of cryptically named folders (var, usr, srv, etc, bin, lib, home, opt) and was confused that installing software would scatter files all over the file system rather than putting them in an equivalent to Program Files/Program Name. Then of course, why on earth are there Gnomes on my desktop (at least the name "Windows" makes sense), and what's an X Server? I don't want my computer being server, I'd better uninstall that!

But once you get used to it, it makes sense doing it the "linux way" just as much as it makes sense doing it the "Windows way". I agree with Mark Jenson on this though, a completely new Windows user is presented with some pretty cryptic seemingly illogical stuff too (not just regedit, because most users don't ever need to use that) but simple stuff like clicking "Start" when you want to shut down your computer. Computers are baffling to completely new users regardless of the OS. If someone had been using nothing but linux for the last 15 years and got thrown into a Windows environment for the first time, they'd struggle at first too. I mean, where's the package manager? What's all this about you having to google around for install files? Don't you just have a central repository for all of the main software? How bizarre!

[Eice]

I am actually pretty impressed with the level of effort that went into it but then I got thinking, if linux is to become more mainstream how to make it better?

Here's a couple ideas I came up with.

Trust me, the things you mentioned are NOTHING compared to Linux's real problems.

• Some support for sites that require ActiveX.
  
• Better compatibility with Microsoft Office file formats.
  
• Better driver support for printers.
  
• Do not make users reinstall their OS every six months because the upgrade path is an unreliable pile of bat ****, and introduce a whole heap of regressions while you're at it.
  

There's nothing funnier than watching a geek rave on and on about the virtues of Linux to an everyday user, install it for the everyday user, and have the everyday user suddenly find out that his/her computer has literally become useless. I should know, I've had it happen to me.

[markwolfe Veteran]

Trust me, the things you mentioned are NOTHING compared to Linux's real problems.

• Some support for sites that require ActiveX.
  

I have been using Linux 100% for over 6 years. You would think that there would be one activeX site that has prevented me from accessing it. Funny, though. I have never run into that. (now, silverlight is a bit of a problem, but no surprise that Microsoft would make it difficult for Linux users there, is it?)

• Better compatibility with Microsoft Office file formats.
  

Ah, Microsoft's undocumented document files. Only with the recent push for ODF (or even OOXML), has Microsoft been remotely involved in document interoperability between apps. If Microsoft can lock up your important files, so only Microsoft (with Office) can properly unlock and decode them, guess what people will need to purchase? That's right, more Microsoft software to read their own files.

• Better driver support for printers.
  

While I haven't personally run across a printer I could not print with, my experience with this is as a basic home user. Just about 3 or 4 printers. I am sure that there are models that are not perfectly supported (anything that has to compile a patch is user-unfriendly, and needs to be improved). How can Linux get better at this? I know! How about they offer to write drivers for the OEMs for free!. That's been offered for a few years now.

• Do not make users reinstall their OS every six months because the upgrade path is an unreliable pile of bat ****, and introduce a whole heap of regressions while you're at it.
  

Reinstall every six months? Like so many of the users in this Neowin forum? Who makes you reinstall Linux? Even Ubuntu, with their 6-month rapid update cycle, can be in-place upgraded (that's how I do it). Or you can choose the longer-term product cycle of their LTS version. Or pick your own flavor and stick with it instead of constantly reinstalling. Don't blame Linux because you have managed it so poorly that you end up frustrated and trolling your anger in online forums.

Neowin members, including myself, put themselves out to help others. I haven't checked your posts here, but have you asked for help in any of these items? Or do you just like to bitch and complain?

[ichi]

Better compatibility with Microsoft Office file formats.

And now that's a Linux problem?

It could be an OOo problem, an Abiword problem or whatever, but if you really need MSOffice then just install MSOffice.

I'm running MSOffice2007 on Linux at work, along with OOo, without problems.

Do not make users reinstall their OS every six months because the upgrade path is an unreliable pile of bat ****, and introduce a whole heap of regressions while you're at it.

Again that might be an Ubuntu issue for some people under some circunstances. It sucks when something breaks and would be cool if it never ever happened to anyone, but that's hardly a huge Linux problem.

For home use where you most likely don't need LTS, there's no reason to not go with a rolling release distro like Arch and forget about big version updates.

Now you'll tell me that upgrade paths for other OSes are always 100% flawless, right?

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

ActiveX? I wouldn't say that's a problem any more, and we can thank the rise of Firefox and Safari and others for that.

[Mouldy Punk]

Some internet banking sites still don't have all of the functionality available to those using non-activex enabled browsers.

[markwolfe Veteran]

Some internet banking sites still don't have all of the functionality available to those using non-activex enabled browsers.

Can you point me to one? I have heard of this, as people throw this up* all the time, but no one I have asked has been able to actually provide a bank site that was unavailable without activex.

* _{The "throw up" reference was unintentional, but works very well to describe this sort of stuff that is vomited up.}

[4CxbqFxVnstmA Veteran]

Can you point me to one? I have heard of this, as people throw this up* all the time, but no one I have asked has been able to actually provide a bank site that was unavailable without activex.

* _{The "throw up" reference was unintentional, but works very well to describe this sort of stuff that is vomited up.}

I don't think there are any banks out there that use ActiveX, seriously--not these days (security reasons plus the fact lots of people use Firefox and other browsers). I think the only thing anyone out there would actually need ActiveX for would be Windows Genuine Advantage and other bits and bobs people who use Windows might need if they visit Microsoft's site for updates.

On a more general level, the kindest thing one could say about the various inaccuracies in some of the posts in this thread is that they must be intended as trolls.? :no:

[Eice]

Can you point me to one?

And what will happen, exactly, if I do provide you with one?

Would you actually have the balls to swallow back the products of your vomit, or would you simply throw up more?

[markwolfe Veteran]

And what will happen, exactly, if I do provide you with one?

Would you actually have the balls to swallow back the products of your vomit, or would you simply throw up more?

Oh, please. I have been wrong on here before, and have stated so.

Your statement sounds like a desperate attempt to turn the tables and sling mud on me because you do not have the data to back it up.

P.S. I see you googling (or binging) like mad to find a bank site right now. :laugh:

[Growled Member]

ActiveX? I wouldn't say that's a problem any more, and we can thank the rise of Firefox and Safari and others for that.

I haven't any any problems with Active X for years. I'm not saying there is not a few sites that still use it heavily but I haven't run into one.

[redvamp128]

First off, I have never used linux before (Don't hit me). I am a Windows C# and ASP.NET programmer (Don't hit me). A buddy of mine recently wanted me to do a project with him but it was done in Ubuntu.

I am actually pretty impressed with the level of effort that went into it but then I got thinking, if linux is to become more mainstream how to make it better?

Here's a couple ideas I came up with.

• Universal Installation Program - .Run, .Sh., etc. needs some form of terminal use. Terminal is very powerful but to families out there they wont care. Imagine an 80 year old person having to use terminal to install a .sh program!
  
• Less Terminal Use!!! - Again yes terminal is very powerful but the less a general user (or at all) has to use the happier the masses will be right! It's about utility here right! Greatest good for the greatest number!
  
• Less Tux Jargon! - holy hell guys! When installing ubuntu I was learning japanese at the same time! Please always use the full name then maybe in parenthesis show what it is.
  

What's your ideas! And please no ohhhh just go here and get this. This is about out of the "box" just installed.

Annnnnnnd GO!

Ubuntu has the package manager now = so no need to go into the terminal or use an .sh .run or other to install - it kind of does have a universal installer .deb where you clikc on it - it checks to make sure you have necessary files to run the program - admin password and then it installs.

(heck they even make it simple to install nvidia drivers with the restricted drivers detection)

Tux Jargon- most installs are click click click - user name - password then root (administrator password)- set time zone and exit.

Now as far as the turning a .sh into an executable - that is actually kind of a security feature if you ask me- where it does not run a script when clicked unless you do change it to where it can run.

Oh and recently I installed a wubi (a side by side install of ubuntu running inside a windows) on a persons system with no linux experience- she has yet after 5 months even booted to a terminal. We decided on that approach because even with antivirus her system got trashed by one click (with Avira antivirus too) of a file that she though was a video file. (it was on facebook in an email - the link even bypassed windows vista asking to run. )

So she could still use her system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wubi_%28Ubuntu_installer%29

While Wubi does not install Ubuntu directly to its own partition this can also be accomplished by using LVPM, the Loopmounted Virtual Partition Manager, to transfer the Wubi-generated Ubuntu installation to a dedicated real partition, including a bootable USB keydrive.^[1] The advantage of this setup is that users can test the operating system and install the drivers before they install it to a dedicated partition (and avoid booting and functioning risks).

[Growled Member]

Where the sh and the terminal comes in is on third party programs. Not everyone is satisfied to stick with what's in the repository, though that is the safest and best way. I know I installed Crossover recently with the terminal and their install script. It's not a big deal for me but I can see how some from the windows world might be intimidated.

Actually if you learn the terminal you will learn it is your best friend. You can do things with it that is undreamed of with a GUI.

[Eice]

I said I have been wrong on Neowin before. I said that I have admitted when I have been wrong.

Maybe I used too many words.

"Yes."

The site in question is one that my father uses to manage his stocks portfolio online, which happens to be one of the few things he does with his machine. I thought Ubuntu would've been perfect for his antique laptop (single-core Intel Centrino, 512MB, 40GB), but lack of ActiveX support was a dealbreaker. I had to jump through hoops to install Win7 on it since it doesn't support DVD/USB booting, but now that everything's set up, it's humming along nicely.

I installed Ubuntu Karmic for my mom, and tbh I'm already regretting it. The drivers for her Canon iP1880 printer that I downloaded off the Canon website do not work, since 9.10 scrapped libcupsys2 in favor of libcups2, which is causing broken dependency issues in due to missing symbolic links (at least, that's what I understand of it). Hours later I managed to get it working by hand-modified debs, but here's to wondering if Lucid is going to break stuff again. No, it's not that Canon hasn't provided drivers for Ubuntu, it's Ubuntu going about breaking stuff at random.

Office compatibility is also a problem. My mom is a chemistry teacher, and she hates OpenOffice Math's equation editor (Word was point-and-click). Even worse, from prior experience, I know that stuff breaks and things look wrong when you try to open OOo-typed equations in Office and vice versa. The fact that the computers at her school still use Office 2003 does not help.

Yesterday I taught her how to use the Update Manager. She woke me up at 7am this morning to ask why the Grub2 boot menu now reports TWO Linux kernels, and which one should she boot into. I uninstalled the old kernel for her and re-ran sudo update-grub, and by then I was already cringing at how Linux simply has an absolutely ridiculous penchant for making things difficult for everyday users.

Lucid is coming out in 4 months' time, and by then I won't be here anymore to troubleshoot computer problems for my parents. Saying that my upgrade experiences from Hardy to Intrepid, Intrepid to Jaunty, and Jaunty to Karmic haven't been a walk in the park is understating things, and after reading this blog post I finally know why. If my mom runs into even a tenth of the problems that I have, she WILL be screwed, and there will be no one around to help her.

Right now I'm seriously considering scrapping Ubuntu from my mom's laptop and installing Win7 instead. Actually, I think I'll do it tonight.

[Mouldy Punk]

Can you point me to one? I have heard of this, as people throw this up* all the time, but no one I have asked has been able to actually provide a bank site that was unavailable without activex.

* _{The "throw up" reference was unintentional, but works very well to describe this sort of stuff that is vomited up.}

Gladly. egg.com uses active x to log into all of your bank accounts from the egg site. I've no idea of any other sites as I only have experience with the banks I've used.

Screenshot from firefox:

I'd also like to point out that I'm not the sort of person who spews about things he doesn't know about.

[Growled Member]

The site in question is one that my father uses to manage his stocks portfolio online, which happens to be one of the few things he does with his machine. I thought Ubuntu would've been perfect for his antique laptop (single-core Intel Centrino, 512MB, 40GB), but lack of ActiveX support was a dealbreaker. I had to jump through hoops to install Win7 on it since it doesn't support DVD/USB booting, but now that everything's set up, it's humming along nicely.

You can install IE6 in Wine using winetricks and it works perfectly.

I installed Ubuntu Karmic for my mom, and tbh I'm already regretting it. The drivers for her Canon iP1880 printer that I downloaded off the Canon website do not work, since 9.10 scrapped libcupsys2 in favor of libcups2, which is causing broken dependency issues in due to missing symbolic links (at least, that's what I understand of it). Hours later I managed to get it working by hand-modified debs, but here's to wondering if Lucid is going to break stuff again. No, it's not that Canon hasn't provided drivers for Ubuntu, it's Ubuntu going about breaking stuff at random.

Try another distro. Ubuntu works fine for most but it has never worked that well for me. I'm using Mint and it works for me but I would recommend you trying either Mandriva or even openSuse.

Office compatibility is also a problem. My mom is a chemistry teacher, and she hates OpenOffice Math's equation editor (Word was point-and-click). Even worse, from prior experience, I know that stuff breaks and things look wrong when you try to open OOo-typed equations in Office and vice versa. The fact that the computers at her school still use Office 2003 does not help.

Office 2003 and 2007 will work with wine.

Right now I'm seriously considering scrapping Ubuntu from my mom's laptop and installing Win7 instead. Actually, I think I'll do it tonight.

7 is a good OS. I like it a lot. However, if you want to try Linux, try another distro, like I noted above. After you've tried several, then you'll have a good idea if Linux is for you or not.

[Eice]

7 is a good OS. I like it a lot. However, if you want to try Linux, try another distro, like I noted above. After you've tried several, then you'll have a good idea if Linux is for you or not.

Personally, I dual-boot Mint and Win7, and run openSUSE GNOME in a VM. My parents, however, need their machines, and can't spend weeks staring at different desktops and configs every few days while I install, fiddle, and uninstall Linux distros on their computers to find out which one works best.

Installed Win7 for my mom, and the Canon printer was detected and worked OOTB smoothly with no problems. Remind me again: last I checked, I'm not a masochist, so WHY do I even think about trying to evangelize Linux to people?

Edited January 1, 2010 by Eice

[Growled Member]

Remind me again: last I checked, I'm not a masochist, so WHY do I even think about trying to evangelize Linux to people?

Personally I don't evangelize Linux. It's still not for everyone. You can actually drive people away from Linux if you convince them to switch and they aren't ready to learn something new.

If you really want a good Linux experience you have to make sure you use good, Linux compatible hardware. Some people aren't willing or can't afford to do that so it might be best if they stick with Windows. Most problems with Linux seems to be driver issues and third party software these days.

Personally, I dual-boot Mint and Win7, and run openSUSE GNOME in a VM. My parents, however, need their machines, and can't spend weeks staring at different desktops and configs every few days while I install, fiddle, and uninstall Linux distros on their computers to find out which one works best.

Sounds like they need to dual boot as well. I would download several LiveCd's and play with them. You can tell fairly well how well a distro will run on a computer by running their LiveCd.

[markwolfe Veteran]

The site in question is one that my father uses to manage his stocks portfolio online, which happens to be one of the few things he does with his machine.

Oh, my eyes! On the main page, they have two gems of examples of 1993 GIFs.

and

And, since the page states clearly at the bottom it's best viewed in "IE 5.5 and above in 800x600 resolution" (and the fact I don't have an account there), I will presume you are right that this horribly coded site (click Cyber trade > Search, and you are sent a PDF, instead of given the ability to search) that use hard-coded IP addresses in absolute URLs (not relative? and by IP address?) is stuck with 1990's technology all over inside of it. While, technically not a bank site, but a poorly-implemented web presence for an investment group, I will give you that this site may very well still rely on ActiveX. And my condolences to anyone navigating it, or relying on this group for any sort of online information or access to funds. I trust they are much better in person, because that site is a poor representation of any modern business.

Gladly. egg.com uses active x to log into all of your bank accounts from the egg site. I've no idea of any other sites as I only have experience with the banks I've used.

Screenshot from firefox:

I'd also like to point out that I'm not the sort of person who spews about things he doesn't know about.

That screenshot reminds me of what I get when I try Intuit's QuickBooks online. I get an error message, until I switch my Firefox user agent to pretend I am a Windows PC, instead of Linux. Could you retry that site for me (since I don't have a bank/investment account there) using a user-agent switcher to temporarily claim you are Vista or such?

Personally, I dual-boot Mint and Win7, and run openSUSE GNOME in a VM. My parents, however, need their machines, and can't spend weeks staring at different desktops and configs every few days while I install, fiddle, and uninstall Linux distros on their computers to find out which one works best.

Installed Win7 for my mom, and the Canon printer was detected and worked OOTB smoothly with no problems. Remind me again: last I checked, I'm not a masochist, so WHY do I even think about trying to evangelize Linux to people?

I agree that initial setup is the worst part of a Linux install. Heck, I even dropped Linux for a year and a half after first using it, because I just didn't get it. Now, after using it and understanding it and getting a good initial configuration, I would never go back to Windows. I think it is the package management and the ability to select a UI (fluxbox, in my case) that suits me perfectly. I never claimed that Linux was perfect for you. Or for your parents. Indeed, it may NOT be. But if you want to trade anecdotal stories, I have a good one about my Canon IX-4015 scanner. Would not work in XP or higher (drivers only for 9x). Worked fine in Linux until the day it died at an old age due to congestive hardware failure. I didn't even have to install drivers from a disk, like you had to in Windows. Anecdotal stories are fun, but seldom prove a point (except to the person telling them). ;)

My opinion: You and your parents rely too much on Microsoft technologies to use Linux. So use Windows. It is a something I have recommended to people previously, and seems to be a sound choice in your case. That statement isn't one of anger (I could personally not care less what OS anyone here on Neowin uses). It isn't one that says "Linux is useless", as it serves the needs of many people very well. It is the case of a flavor of ice cream that doesn't suit you. Maybe you don't like butterscotch. No big deal. Pick chocolate, vanilla, strawberry or any other such flavor. Whatever suits you best. :yes: