A better linux for the future

[Mouldy Punk]

That screenshot reminds me of what I get when I try Intuit's QuickBooks online. I get an error message, until I switch my Firefox user agent to pretend I am a Windows PC, instead of Linux. Could you retry that site for me (since I don't have a bank/investment account there) using a user-agent switcher to temporarily claim you are Vista or such?

Sure. It tricked the site into letting me try and install the ActiveX control, but that failed and I got redirected to a page saying;

"We're almost done, but it looks like the password safe didn't install successfully.

This could be because of your administrator settings or because you don't have ActiveX enabled on your PC, which is needed to install the password safe. "

As far as I'm aware there's no way of getting ActiveX to work in linux? (other than using WINE & IE?) Fortunately it's on its way out of fashion

[Growled Member]

As far as I'm aware there's no way of getting ActiveX to work in linux? (other than using WINE & IE?) Fortunately it's on its way out of fashion

You are correct, unfortunately.

[markwolfe Veteran]

...

As far as I'm aware there's no way of getting ActiveX to work in linux? (other than using WINE & IE?) Fortunately it's on its way out of fashion

I don't have IE on my Linux. It may be possible, but I don't think that is the best solution.

[Eice]

Oh, my eyes! On the main page, they have two gems of examples of 1993 GIFs.

While I have no doubt your smart-aleck dismissal makes you feel clever and smug, it unfortunately has no practical use whatsoever. Putting on an air of elitism isn't going to make the site work for my father.

I didn't even have to install drivers from a disk, like you had to in Windows.

I think you misread me. Win7 required no disks; it was Ubuntu that needed hand-modified deb files.

Anecdotal stories are fun, but seldom prove a point (except to the person telling them). ;)

Unless you're trying to imply that Linux has wonderful hardware support, I'm not sure what your point is. Besides, you're looking at it from the wrong point of view because your pre-conceived notion is to dismiss it. Individual anecdotal stories mean little. But when you can find similar stories just about anywhere you look...

[markwolfe Veteran]

While I have no doubt your smart-aleck dismissal makes you feel clever and smug, it unfortunately has no practical use whatsoever. Putting on an air of elitism isn't going to make the site work for my father.

No. I am saying that the site is truly horrible. The gifs are obnoxiously flashing. The links are absolute URLs to IP addresses, and the search really does just open up a PDF file.

In light of those, I accept that it likely uses ActiveX. And you choose to have "no doubts" about that which you clearly have no knowledge about.

I think you misread me. Win7 required no disks; it was Ubuntu that needed hand-modified deb files.

I didn't mis-read you. I didn't state anything contrary-wise about Windows 7. My use of the word "you" does not mean the literal "you", but as used as "one had to do in Windows", since the topic was about my old scanner - well before Windows 7, and not what I was talking about when comparing anecdotes.

Unless you're trying to imply that Linux has wonderful hardware support, I'm not sure what your point is. Besides, you're looking at it from the wrong point of view because your pre-conceived notion is to dismiss it. Individual anecdotal stories mean little. But when you can find similar stories just about anywhere you look...

It was about the futility of comparing anecdotes. I was pretty clear on that.

[08993]

To me, Linux is what you make it and is as individual as the user. I'd use the command line more in Windows if it didn't suck. It's about escaping the very arbitration the OP seeks.

[Barney T. Administrators]

Thread cleaned (somewhat)

[Growled Member]

This thread seems to be going downhill in a hurry.

[tiagosilva29]

Ah, Microsoft's undocumented document files.

I'm sorry to sort of play the devil's advocate here but Microsoft did release the specifications in their Microsoft Open Specification Promise bundle, which will be little touched of license issues and crap...

While I haven't personally run across a printer I could not print with, my experience with this is as a basic home user. Just about 3 or 4 printers. I am sure that there are models that are not perfectly supported (anything that has to compile a patch is user-unfriendly, and needs to be improved). How can Linux get better at this? I know! How about they offer to write drivers for the OEMs for free!. That's been offered for a few years now.

Quoted for truth.

[markwolfe Veteran]

I'm sorry to sort of play the devil's advocate here but Microsoft did release the specifications in their Microsoft Open Specification Promise bundle, which will be little touched of license issues and crap...

That's nice. It mentioned that individuals must agree to the terms, but I could not find a clear listing of the terms. However, any terms that make it incompatible with the GPL by restricting free passing of the code (and having to individually agree to terms might, but cannot be certain) would make this useless for including in Linux.

It is a nice change to see. :yes: Has anyone reviewed the documents in detail, to see if they are complete enough to implement a perfect .doc translator?

[McCordRm]

*MY OPINION*

The only thing lacking with Linux today is gaming. Period.

Everything else you can do natively in the operating system... and you can do it for FREE.

Image editing, media conversions, document files, etc.

What I cannot do is run my games like Darkfall Online, Team Fortress 2, Fallout 3, etc.

Once the game companies decide it's worth it to make Linux-friendly versions of their

games I think Linux will become more mainstream.

[Growled Member]

The only thing lacking with Linux today is gaming. Period.

I agree with you that gaming has a long way to go on Linux. Unfortunately, so does a lot of third party software. I am into image editors and it's mainly Gimp or nothing in Linux, while in Windows you have dozens of editors to choose from. Most of them run poorly or not at all with Wine.

[tiagosilva29]

Has anyone reviewed the documents in detail, to see if they are complete enough to implement a perfect .doc translator?

I remember some Abiword/KOffice devs talking about the specs, and that Joel guy. Only a crazy person could dive into that ****.

[i_was_here]

The only thing lacking with Linux today is gaming. Period.

Everything else you can do natively in the operating system... and you can do it for FREE.

Image editing, media conversions, document files, etc.

You know there are Linux native games like UrbanTerror and Alien Arena right? Even some commercial games like Quake 4 or UT2004.

I cannot install Photoshop CS4 natively on Linux, should I complain that Linux lacks image editing software?

What I cannot do is run my games like Darkfall Online, Team Fortress 2, Fallout 3, etc.

Once the game companies decide it's worth it to make Linux-friendly versions of their

games I think Linux will become more mainstream.

While it does not run natively, I do play Team Fortress 2 using CrossOver. Im sure it would work using Wine as well.

[markwolfe Veteran]

You know there are Linux native games like UrbanTerror and Alien Arena right? Even some commercial games like Quake 4 or UT2004.

I cannot install Photoshop CS4 natively on Linux, should I complain that Linux lacks image editing software?

I think that it would be misleading to say that Linux users can just buy and run Photoshop. And sometimes different versions of wine may require different tweaks to make it work.

Being able to "make it work" is a bit different than "install and run, and call Adobe if a feature is broken".

Wine is a second-best way to make an app run. Sure, some times it may be fantastic and just as easy as Windows (World of Warcraft is this way). But you cannot say that the latest version of every program is supported or even works without jumping through hoops. And some software just won't work, despite the community's best efforts.

[i_was_here]

My point was there are many programs besides games that do not have Linux native versions. Do not single out gaming when there are applications like Adobe Photoshop and Microsoft Office that do not have a Linux native version also.

[Growled Member]

My point was there are many programs besides games that do not have Linux native versions. Do not single out gaming when there are applications like Adobe Photoshop and Microsoft Office that do not have a Linux native version also.

Well, McCordRm did say in his opinion. I suppose he feels strongly about games and not so strongly about Photoshop and Office. Different folks have different strokes.

[Mouldy Punk]

My point was there are many programs besides games that do not have Linux native versions. Do not single out gaming when there are applications like Adobe Photoshop and Microsoft Office that do not have a Linux native version also.

I don't think you can necessarily lump MS Office in with that. Open office is actually a viable alternative- it even reads/writes microsoft formats. Usability wise, it's pretty much the same as any office suite.

Photoshop doesn't have a viable alternative IMO. GIMP is probably the nearest thing, but it has the worst user interface I think I have ever seen in an GUI program. It's so bad that I don't actually know if it can compare with Photoshop in terms of functionality because things are just nothing like what anybody is used to.

The way I see it,

MS Office - industry standard, everyone knows how to use it. OpenOffice - pretty much the same, difference in terms of interface is so slight it doesn't really matter that there isn't a linux version of MS Office.

Photoshop - industry standard, everyone who does professional image editing knows how to use it. GIMP - very different to photoshop so people who are used to Photoshop aren't going to be happy changing, so it does matter that there isn't a linux version of Photoshop.

Games are worse off that photoshop IMO. Because despite GIMP being so awful (I really realy don't like that program, can you tell? :p) at least it's something. There isn't an "OpenGTA IV" game that's as close to the commercial game as it makes no difference. We're stuck with the version the official developers made.

Linux has it's uses. But not on my home PC.

[Growled Member]

Linux has it's uses. But not on my home PC.

But would you agree that for many people who are lite users of computers who don't have advanced needs (and that probably includes 50% of the computer users) that Linux might be a perfect fit. Not everyone is a gamer or needs Photoshop or Office, especially at home.

[markwolfe Veteran]

But would you agree that for many people who are lite users of computers who don't have advanced needs (and that probably includes 50% of the computer users) that Linux might be a perfect fit. Not everyone is a gamer or needs Photoshop or Office, especially at home.

Just for the record, I use Office files a lot. OpenOffice (and, more recentlym Abiword/Gnumeric) have come through for me.

[Mouldy Punk]

But would you agree that for many people who are lite users of computers who don't have advanced needs (and that probably includes 50% of the computer users) that Linux might be a perfect fit. Not everyone is a gamer or needs Photoshop or Office, especially at home.

Linux has it's uses

But y'know, those lite users who make up 50% of all computer users could equally Get A Mac? or use Windows. In terms of Joe public just wanting a computer so they can send emails, chat to friends, go on facebook, save photos, watch DVDs, type up a CV etc, it makes very little to no difference whether they use windows/linux/mac because they can all do those jobs.

[bjoswald]

"A better Linux" seems a little too vague and personal, but I'll chime in anyway...

First of all, I'll have to agree with some of the previous posters in regards to less Terminal, more GUI fun. Of course the die-hard Linux geeks will whine about this, but if you want to attract attention and get more people involved, then we're going to have to make it simple. You have to realize that most people are lazy and stupid. Not you, not me, but most people. Make it act like Windows but with a few subtle differences to handhold them and you'll be good. KEEP IT SIMPLE. The less people have to do, the better.

Next, we need some better themes. I'm sorry, but the vast majority of Linux themes are total garbage. In fact, it seems like someone changes an icon or wallpaper and releases it as a whole new distro these days! I'm not saying we need to completely rethink the way we make themes or anything. This is 2010, you'd think we'd see some of the fancy graphics we paid so much money on hardware for! If it looks good, people will be more inclined to get involved. Why do you think Windows 7 and OSX are so popular?

Third, can we please rename Linux applications to things that make sense? They're either abbreviations for technical jargon or some kind of obscure name like "GIMP". (Yes, I know what it stands for.) Who in the hell would want to use a program called "GIMP" to take the red eye out of ol' grandpa's fishing photos? When you read "Windows Live Photo Gallery", you instinctively know it has to do with photos or pictures. Or when you hear "Windows Media Player", generally, one should consider that a movie or music player. Is it really that hard to use common sense when naming programs?

Finally, have some of the most-used programs installed by default. Some distros are catching on to this, and that's great. There should be no reason for anyone to have to download Flash, Firefox, and what have you. Especially when it's a nightmare to get it working on Linux anyway (I'm referring to newbies here).

[Mathiasdm]

Third, can we please rename Linux applications to things that make sense? They're either abbreviations for technical jargon or some kind of obscure name like "GIMP". (Yes, I know what it stands for.) Who in the hell would want to use a program called "GIMP" to take the red eye out of ol' grandpa's fishing photos? When you read "Windows Live Photo Gallery", you instinctively know it has to do with photos or pictures. Or when you hear "Windows Media Player", generally, one should consider that a movie or music player. Is it really that hard to use common sense when naming programs?

GIMP is in my menu as 'GIMP Image Editor'. Sounds pretty obvious to me.

Finally, have some of the most-used programs installed by default. Some distros are catching on to this, and that's great. There should be no reason for anyone to have to download Flash, Firefox, and what have you. Especially when it's a nightmare to get it working on Linux anyway (I'm referring to newbies here).

The most-used programs are usually preinstalled, but one has to keep in mind limited space on a CD/DVD image.

Also, with regards to Flash and MP3 codecs, these are probably not preinstalled due to legal issues (software patents and such). Still, after installing, when I visit youtube, I simply get a popup 'would you like to install Flash', which is incredibly simple. Similarly, when I open an MP3 in rhythmbox, I get a popup 'would you like to install the correct codec'. It's not exactly a nightmare.

[Mouldy Punk]

GIMP is in my menu as 'GIMP Image Editor'. Sounds pretty obvious to me.

So, this GIMP. It's an editor of GIMP images? Sounds nasty.

Sorry, couldn't resist :laugh:

[08993]

People need to stop thinking about Linux as an OS, it's a framework. The distributions are what should be judged and discussed because I don't see how you can improve GNU/Linux, it's everywhere, it's probably in your HDTV for starters and you wouldn't know it.

EDIT/ It's Windows Fault! Linux is an OS I guess but the definition of OS has been defined by Windows as "the blob" and it's very hard to define the difference.

ANOTHER EDIT/ Maybe stop thinking about Linux as a desktop operating system, although it can be, bah I give up.

Edited January 24, 2010 by 8993