F1 World Championship 2010 Thread

[MightyJordan]

Eddie Jordan hits the nail on the head here.

Ferrari must pay for treating public like "muppets"

Ahead of today's potentially pivotal FIA World Motor Sport Council (WMSC) hearing into the Ferrari Hockenheim team orders furore, opinion is divided amongst the sport's experts as to what F1's governing body should do ? with Eddie Jordan insisting the team 'must pay' for having treated the public 'like muppets', and Damon Hill conversely arguing that a hefty punishment would not 'fit this particular crime'.

Should the FIA come down hard on Ferrari and drivers Fernando Alonso and Felipe Massa ? whose orchestrated switch of positions during the closing stages of the 2010 German Grand Prix in July was the catalyst for the whole team orders controversy to rear its ugly head again, following its official ban back in 2002 ? it could well spell the end of the former's title challenge this year, particularly if the Spaniard is stripped of the points he gained for his engineered 'victory', which would leave him a full 66 markers adrift of the world championship lead with just six races left to run. Jordan reckons that would be no less than both driver and team deserve.

?It was very blatant,? the former team owner-turned-BBC F1 pundit told BBC Radio Five Live. ?I think they should get a bigger penalty. What happens if Alonso gets away scot-free and goes on to win [the title] by two points from whoever? What Ferrari did was they showed no respect to the public, they treated us all like muppets, they broke the rules and they have to pay the penalty.?

The Maranello-based outfit was fined $100,000 in the immediate aftermath of the race for the coded message given out by Massa's race engineer Rob Smedley, who twice informed the Brazilian over the pit-to-car radio that the following Alonso was faster than him ? the clear inference being that he should move aside and let his team-mate through to take maximum points, in the light of their respective championship chances. Smedley later thanked Massa for having been so 'magnanimous'.

Whilst the Scuderia's defence argument is likely to hinge upon the fact that no explicit order was given to Massa to let Alonso pass him, former FIA President Max Mosley has professed his opinion that the team orders ban he played a key role in imposing eight years ago should remain in-place and that 'both cars and both drivers should lose the points they achieved in the German Grand Prix' [see separate story ? click here].

Jordan claims the outcome of the WMSC reunion will reveal much about the Englishman's successor in the role, erstwhile Ferrari team principal Jean Todt. The Frenchman will not be chairing the hearing due to his old ties with the team, handing over the reins instead to his deputy president, London barrister Graham Stoker.

?Max Mosley didn't always attend these meetings, but his thought process was very much in evidence,? the Irishman explained. ?[Todt's] decision will be embedded in that body of people.?

Another school of thought, meanwhile, is that the ban ? brought in after Rubens Barrichello slowed dramatically just before the finish line to hand Ferrari team-mate Michael Schumacher the win in the 2002 Austrian Grand Prix, thereby making very evident his displeasure with the instruction he had received from his team ? is simply unworkable, with the common consensus being that the Prancing Horse now finds itself in the dock not for having transgressed that ban as rival teams have similarly undoubtedly done, but rather for the clumsy manner in which it did so and the persistent denials afterwards that it had done anything of the sort.

1996 F1 World Champion Hill subscribes to the belief that with the regulations being so vague and 'fundamentally flawed' on the whole issue of team orders, in this instance it would be wrong to 'throw the book' at Ferrari and that a points penalty or disqualification from the German Grand Prix results would be too harsh, favouring rather a complete clarification of the ruling to avoid such a gross insult to fans' intelligence taking place again.

?Flexing their muscles because they (the FIA) can is not necessarily wise,? the British Racing Drivers' Club (BRDC) President is quoted as having said by The Daily Telegraph, revealing that his suggestion would be to legalise team orders and also offer a means of protection for drivers who choose not to obey them. ?I don't think a punishment that big would fit this particular crime.

?Teams say they are not implementing team orders, but we all suspect that what they are doing is indicating to the driver how they would like them to perform, which can't be construed as an order. It is an issue which has been creeping up for some time and has not been addressed, and I think Ferrari might get off because the rules aren't clear. This is where the sport doesn't do itself any favours. It needs a media circus to make the necessary changes. I mean, this is happening four days before the Italian Grand Prix.?

?I don't think the drivers will get a penalty,? added defending F1 World Champion Jenson Button. ?If they do get another penalty it will be for the team, because it was an order from the team. Personally, I don't understand why they just don't swap the points around for those two, but you can't do that within the regulations.?

Source.

[ahmz]

Ferrari should get off scot free because every other team does it, and will continue to do it no matter what the rules & regulations say about it.

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

Source

[MightyJordan]

THE ****!!! :angry:

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

Ferrari set to escape further penalties

Ferrari looks set to escape further sanction over its alleged deployment of team orders in the German Grand Prix.

The team was fined $100,000 by the Hockenheim race stewards and referred to the FIA World Motor Sport Council after Felipe Massa slowed and allowed Fernando Alonso to pass him for the lead - with the Spaniard going on to take a win that resurrected his title bid.

The WMSC hearing over the matter took place in Paris today, but Angelo Sticchi Damiani, head of Italian motorsport federation the CSAI, told reporters outside that the governing body had agreed unanimously not to impose any extra punishment, according to the Reuters news agency.

Team orders have been banned in Formula 1 since the outcry over Ferrari's handling of the 2002 Austrian Grand Prix, when Rubens Barrichello handed victory to team-mate Michael Schumacher within sight of the chequered flag - even though the German already had a comfortable lead.

Suspicions were aroused at Hockenheim when Ferrari informed Massa over the radio that Alonso was "faster" than him, and then asked if he "understood" the message. Shortly afterwards, the Brazilian relinquished the lead and was subsequently thanked by his engineer Rob Smedley, who also said "sorry" in the same radio transmission.

Ferrari argued that it was Massa's own choice to cede the lead, and that it had simply presented the situation to him over the radio. Alonso had been the quicker of the Ferrari drivers for much of the weekend, but was passed by his team-mate at the start.

Source: Autosport

[Richard Hammond]

Disgusting but not surprised, amazing how such a high profile team like Ferrari gets a slapped wrist yet Flavio Briatore got banned for telling Piquet to crash. At the very least they should have stripped Alonso of his win, that p**** doesnt deserve to be in with a shot of championship.

[Lovell]

Disgusting but not surprised, amazing how such a high profile team like Ferrari gets a slapped wrist yet Flavio Briatore got banned for telling Piquet to crash. At the very least they should have stripped Alonso of his win, that p**** doesnt deserve to be in with a shot of championship.

The only person punished was Piquet; Renault got off with no fine no ban nothing; Briatore got banned from F1 which was then overturned by a French court, it's not as if anyone could have been killed :no: now compare with McLaren who with Renault stole Ferrari tech; McLaren receives a $100 million fine Renault get away, Renault and Ferrari could conspire to fix the entire GP and would get away with a warning :wacko:

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

FIA to review team orders ban

Formula 1's ban on team orders is to be reviewed after the season following the decision of the FIA not to hand Ferrari any further punishment for breaching the regulations at the German Grand Prix.

Following a meeting of the FIA's World Motor Sport Council in Paris on Wednesday, the governing body announced that the $100,000 fine given to Ferrari after Hockenheim would be upheld - and that no further sanctions would be imposed.

However, Ferrari would be asked to pay the FIA's legal costs for the disciplinary however.

A statement issued by the FIA said: "On 25 July 2010, at the Grand Prix of Germany, the stewards of the meeting found an infringement by the Scuderia Ferrari to the prohibition of team orders interfering with a race result and then decided to impose a fine of $100,000 and to forward the dossier to the World Motor Sport Council for further consideration.

"The Judging Body of the World Motor Sport Council held an extraordinary hearing in Paris on September 8, 2010 to examine this matter.

"After an in depth analysis of all reports, statements and documents submitted, the judging body has decided to confirm the stewards' decision of a $100,000 fine for infringing article 39.1 of the sporting regulations and to impose the payment of the costs incurred by the FIA."

Furthermore, the FIA announced that Formula 1's thinktank, the Sporting Working Group, would be asked to look into the team orders ban.

The statement added: "The judging body has also acknowledged that article 39.1 of the sporting regulations should be reviewed and has decided to refer this question to the Formula 1 Sporting Working Group."

Ferrari welcomed the decision of the FIA - and made it clear that its focus was now on delivering a strong result at this weekend's Italian Grand Prix to help boost its world championship challenge.

"Ferrari has taken note of the decision of the FIA World Council, relating to the outcome of this year's German Grand Prix and wishes to express its appreciation of the Council's proposal to review article 39.1 of the Formula 1 sporting regulations, in light of what emerged during today's discussions," said a statement from the Maranello team.

"Now, all the team's efforts will be focussed on the next event on track, when the Italian Grand Prix takes place at Monza this weekend."

The FIA will release a full explanation of its decision on Thursday.

Source: Autosport

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

Todt: Not enough proof to punish Ferrari

FIA president Jean Todt says motor racing's governing body could not hand Ferrari any further sanctions for using team orders at the German Grand Prix, because there was not enough evidence to prove it had broken the rules.

With the FIA's World Motor Sport Council having decided to simply uphold the $100,000 (USD) fine Ferrari was handed at Hockenheim during a disciplinary hearing in Paris on Wednesday, Todt says that without proof of team orders being used there was little else the FIA could do.

"Before you say you are guilty, you need to be able to prove that you are guilty," Todt said in an interview with the BBC.

"And if you understand all the parts that have been asked, everyone has denied that it was a team order."

When asked to respond to suggestions that, despite Ferrari's denials, many people believed the outfit had used team orders, Todt said: "I tend to agree as well."

Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali welcomed the decision of the governing body to not hand further sanctions down, and thought moves to review the team orders ban would be good for the sport.

"We take notice of the decision of the World Council which has confirmed the decision of the stewards and appreciate the fact that the World Council has taken into consideration the fact that the [team orders] rule has to be amended to make it much clearer," he said. "This is an important step towards transparency."

The FIA is due to publish its official reasoning for not taking further action against Ferrari on Thursday.

Source: Autosport

[MightyJordan]

"Before you say you are guilty, you need to be able to prove that you are guilty,"

What a stupid thing to say. Like anyone would bring a ton of evidence to show they're guilty, when they're there to prove they're not guilty.

To sum it all up: Ferrari issued a team order, but they get away with it, because their former CEO is in charge of the FIA, so they can get away with practically anything.

Like Eddie Jordan said, they're treating us like muppets.

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

Button calls for team orders clarification

Jenson Button thinks it is very important that team orders rules are clarified quickly in order for the whole Formula 1 field to compete under the same regulations.

The FIA said on Wednesday that it would review team orders regulations following the hearing in which Ferrari was not given any further penalties for its antics at the German Grand Prix, where Felipe Massa let team-mate Fernando Alonso through to win the race and boost his chances in the championship.

Ferrari was fined 100,000 USD by the race stewards in Germany for breaking the rules, and the team was summoned to the World Motor Sport Council.

The WMSC, however, imposed no further penalties on the team, with FIA president Jean Todt saying there was not enough evidence of team orders having been imposed, despite the body ratifying the fine imposed in July.

After the decision to not impose further penalties on Ferrari, McLaren driver Button has called on the FIA to act quickly in order to have a level playing field.

"Obviously it was not down to us, so our opinion [as drivers] doesn't matter in this situation, the decision was down to FIA who is the governing body," Button said at Monza on Thursday.

"But the important thing is we get a clarification of the rules, so we are all working with the same regulations. That is the key."

Alonso told a news conference on Thursday that he wanted to move on from the controversy.

"I think we were very concentrated on Monza already and we are set," he said. "We are aware of the decision of the FIA and just have to respect it. That is the past for us and we concentrate on this weekend.

"I think we talked already too much in the August break about the Germany incident - as my colleagues said, I am happy that the FIA will try to go into the rules and try to clarify if there is any sort of something that is not completely clear in the rules. We can then be all more clear ? there is no special feeling."

Lotus driver Jarno Trulli joined the group of drivers calling for an end to the team orders ban, saying Formula 1 drivers must do what's best for their teams.

"In my opinion, this is a sport where the team counts as much as in football. It's true that we have two drivers on track rather than 11 players, but at the end of the day, it's made by strategy and it's made by a big amount of data that we collect. And the strategy plays a very important role," Trulli said.

"Playing team strategy is something which is part of this business and part of this sport. In my opinion, I don't think the federation should impede the teams playing with team orders. It's true that it is a sport, but it's turned into a business, and there are teams that are spending a lot of money to develop a car, to make the drivers win, and to promote their sponsors.

He added: "It's true it's sad for the supporters to see what happened at Hockenheim. But this is part of the business, and you can see it in every sport anyway - probably in a different way, not so obvious as it was at Hockenheim, but it's still happening. Many teams have done it before, even when we had these rules.

"They should let drivers fight and should let the teams decide who is going to win, or who they're going to support - this is my own personal opinion."

Renault's Robert Kubica said the situation would be clearer if the ban was removed.

"About getting rid of the team order rule, I think both ways is okay," Kubica said. "We had the rule and many, many occasions in the past there were team orders, and no one noticed - or let's say it was not so obvious as in Hockenheim.

"I think without the rule it would just be easier, you would not have to hide it so much. There are many ways to swap positions between team-mates, even if the rule is kept."

Source: Autosport

[san.W10]

Massa?s Spa jump start

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwMlvmDR1bI

Sep.1 (GMM) Felipe Massa escaped penalty despite clearly getting a head-start in last Sunday?s Belgian grand prix.

Before the five red lights went out at Spa-Francorchamps, BBC commentator Martin Brundle observed that the Ferrari was about ?two metres? ahead of its starting area on the grid.

A spectator?s amateur footage, posted on video sharing website Youtube, now supports Brundle?s observation, but the Brazilian was not penalised by the stewards.

Germany?s Auto Motor und Sport said Massa, who finished the race in fourth place, was ?at least 1 metre? ahead of his grid box.

Ferrari?s post-race press release mentions neither Massa?s grid error or the fact that he made up two early positions once the race had started.

The German report speculated that if FIA officials, or any of his competitors, had noticed the incident, Massa would probably have received a drive-through penalty.

Sensors in the grid boxes are supposed to ensure the cars? correct positioning as well as whether the competitor made a jump-start.

Below is a screen grab of the orginal video which FOM had removed?.

http://www.yallaf1.com/2010/09/01/massa-spa-jump-start-proof-on-youttube/

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

FIA: Ferrari did use illegal team orders

The FIA remains convinced that Ferrari did use illegal team orders at the German Grand Prix - but it decided not to push the team further at its disciplinary hearing on Wednesday because of inconsistencies in the way the rules have been applied in the past.

Motor racing's governing body issued the full hearing notes from the meeting of its World Motor Sport Council that met in Paris on Wednesday to examine the events at Hockenheim - where it explained why the Italian team had not faced further sanctions.

The report of the meeting suggests that the WMSC felt the team orders situation was so ambiguous in F1 that it would have been wrong to punish Ferrari more - even though it was sure the outfit had imposed an illegal order on Felipe Massa.

"It is undeniable that the race result would have been different had the contentious instruction not been issued to Mr Felipe Massa," said the FIA.

However, it stated that: "there were many examples of what could have been said to be team orders in Formula 1 in recent years, and therefore there has been inconsistency in its application.

"Also its application to indirect team orders via messages where drivers raise no complaints is uncertain and difficult to detect and police.

"The Judging Body of the WMSC accepted that this may well have influenced Ferrari's approach, and Ferrari also had a legitimate concern to avoid collisions between team mates in close on track racing."

Ferrari's case was also strengthened by Williams and Sauber writing to the FIA to show their support - and point out the risks that come from team-mates colliding when fighting for position.

The sanctions that the WMSC were asked to consider were a $100,000 fine, a five-second penalty for Alonso, which would have relegated him to second, and the withdrawal of drivers' and teams' points from Hockenheim, suspended for 2010 and given back if no similar event occurred during the remainder of the season.

The FIA document also explained Ferrari's defence ? that there had never been an 'order'. The Maranello-based outfit made sure to note the distinction between an order and the supply of information or a request for what a team would like a driver to do.

"In the view of Ferrari, Mr Felipe Massa was not ordered to allow Mr Fernando Alonso to pass; rather he was given relevant information, based on which he decided, for the benefit of the team, to allow Mr Fernando Alonso to pass," said the statement.

"The relevant information was that Mr. Fernando Alonso was faster than him, and that Mr. Sebastian Vettel was closing the gap on both of them.

"Mr Felipe Massa realised that the best interests of the team and the drivers' safety were going to be served by allowing Mr Fernando Alonso to pass, and acted accordingly.

"In the view of Ferrari, there is a clear distinction between 'team orders' on the one hand, and 'team strategy and tactics' on the other hand. The dispute communication should be considered as 'team strategy and tactics.'"

The report also revealed that a few laps before the radio communication where Rob Smedley informed Massa that Alonso was faster than him, both drivers had been ordered to turn their engines down ? before the Spaniard was allowed to turn his up again.

"Alonso increased his engine speed without Mr Felipe Massa's being informed," revealed the FIA document. "Mr Fernando Alonso was therefore benefiting from a definite performance advantage over Mr Felipe Massa in the moments preceding the contentious overtaking."

Click here to read the full verdict from the World Motor Sport Council. (.pdf)

Source: Autosport

[san.W10]

Massa 'too low in car' to see grid lines

Felipe Massa says his out-of-position start at the Belgian Grand Prix happened simply because his seating position did not give him good enough visibility to line his Ferrari up correctly.

The FIA recently acknowledged that Massa had been too far forward over his grid slot when the race started, and should have had a penalty, but said that as the incident had only been brought to its notice via videos in the week after the race, it was too late to apply a punishment.

"I'm maybe the lowest driver in the car, I'm very low in the car and maybe if I was a bit higher, it would be easier to see," Massa explained.

"Definitely I couldn't see the lines very well, so I was a little bit outside, and that was it."

The governing body is investigating why Massa's contravention was not picked up by either the observing marshals or the electronic systems designed to detect grid infringements.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86507

[Subject Delta]

Can't really say I am surprised that Ferrari got off, although the recent penalties applied particularly to McLaren (2009 liegate, not spygate), Renault, and in this latest incidence Ferrari are sending totally the wrong message. At this moment in time, team orders are illegal, and Ferrari clearly cheated and should have been punished.

[.mcman]

Bridgestone engineers have sweet rides.

MASSA SAYS HE WILL NOT LET ALONSO PASS HIM AGAIN

Fernando is not happy.

1 hour and 9 minutes till first Monza practice.

[Buio]

FIA: Ferrari did use illegal team orders

The FIA remains convinced that Ferrari did use illegal team orders at the German Grand Prix - but it decided not to push the team further at its disciplinary hearing on Wednesday because of inconsistencies in the way the rules have been applied in the past.

.........

Source: Autosport

And now Red Bull's Christian Horner says that the decision has given teams the possibility to use team orders if they are willing to spend $100k.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86509

I guess that means he will tell Vettel to back of so Webber can pass because hes ahead in the championship? :whistle:

[Richard Hammond]

To be fair what could they do, we know they were blatent team orders, they know they were blatent team orders, the council know they were blatent team orders but they werent worded in a way that they were team orders, if Massa had the balls to stand up and say yes those were team orders and i acted on them then they probably would have sanctioned them further, but because hes a little ***** sat there saying "i chose to let him pass" what do you want the council to do?

If Alonso wins this championship by a few points which was swayed by the team orders then theres going to be so much of a sh**storm , as long as he doesnt win the 2010 WC ill be happy.

[Buio]

Btw, saw this on Autosport forums :)

All credits to Augurk;

http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=135088&view=findpost&p=4578899

Thought it was pretty funny. Although I don't have anything against Vettel, he's already very good driver, just need to calm his temper a bit.

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

^ I lol'd.

I've been wondering when Vettel is going to f**k up this time. My guess: Right after the start he's going to pull some kind of dumb stunt in the first chicane.

[ahmz]

So should Hamilton be stripped the title bcoz Heikki let him past in 08 at the same track? Get over it seriously...

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

FP1 result:

[Richard Hammond]

So should Hamilton be stripped the title bcoz Heikki let him past in 08 at the same track? Get over it seriously...

Yes he should have if the points he gained by team orders in that race let him win championship.

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

Schumacher would help review team orders

Michael Schumacher has offered to help provide input for the framing of new team order rules in Formula 1 - to ensure that they satisfy both the fans and those involved in the sport.

With the FIA asking F1 think tank the Sporting Working Group to review the outright ban on team orders in the wake of the Ferrari controversy from the German Grand Prix, there is pressure on those involved not to alienate those who follow the sport with any changes that are made.

That is why Schumacher believes the team orders situation must be considered very carefully - and why he thinks experienced figures like him should be involved in the decision-making process.

"The sport has different interests and it is maybe at this moment in time necessary to find a very clear situation that is understood by everybody," explained the seven-time champion.

"It [the current team orders rule] is maybe a little bit too open to what we wish it to be. I am pretty sure that the teams and the FIA will put a best effort in to clarify the situation and make it clear to everybody."

Schumacher has drawn short of going public with what his views are on the matter ? but says he will readily speak to people behind closed doors to offer help.

"I have a very clear position on what I think about team orders, but I don't think there is a very clear rule or comment that would clarify easily everybody's interests," he said.

"It needs really a thoughtful discussion and not many people spreading out ideas without any sense. So there is no point now to give you some hints.

"I would like to sit together with the right people and discuss it then, if you don't mind, and then come up with a very clear situation."

When asked to clarify that he actually wanted an active role in the team orders discussions, Schumacher said: "This would be ideal ? but I don't think I am going to be too much invited.

"Naturally I have given advice in this respect and here and there I do get the question, no doubt, and I express my opinion.

"But you see in the media and this environment that every so often people have this magic idea. But, if you think everything through, you find some grey spots on it. So there is no point to discuss those issues in public at least."

Source: Autosport

[Richard Hammond]

Nice ego, there are plenty of experienced F1 stewards and current drivers, weve seen how he likes to treat people out on the track dont want some idiot like him helping to shape the rules.