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[+Zagadka Subscriber²]

Yea, people are in love with Dany's in depth development and motivations this season.

 

Spoiler

I don't really care, this is where she was always going to end up, but clearly a lot of people who are invested in the character were confused. And she isn't the only character with that problem. That isn't good. 90% of the complaints are characters acting irrationally because they were undeveloped at a rushed pace. That isn't an anomaly.

 

[George P Global Moderator]

I don't think anyone is underdeveloped at this point in the story, you know who is who and where they stand.  That's why it's the final season, all we need to know is how it all wraps up.     People who think this season is moving fast would probably say the same thing if it was 8 or even 10 episodes.

 

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As far as Dany goes, the show has shown us lots of times that she's ready to cross the line and lose it.  But she always had a core group of people who could pull her back, those people are now gone, no one can keep her in check.  So what did people expect?  And when a person loses it they tend to explode in one go, very few descend into madness over a whole year/season, specially if the trigger for pushing you over is the death of people close to you. 

 

[Emn1ty]

7 hours ago, George P said:

I don't think anyone is underdeveloped at this point in the story, you know who is who and where they stand.  That's why it's the final season, all we need to know is how it all wraps up.     People who think this season is moving fast would probably say the same thing if it was 8 or even 10 episodes.

 

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As far as Dany goes, the show has shown us lots of times that she's ready to cross the line and lose it.  But she always had a core group of people who could pull her back, those people are now gone, no one can keep her in check.  So what did people expect?  And when a person loses it they tend to explode in one go, very few descend into madness over a whole year/season, specially if the trigger for pushing you over is the death of people close to you. 

 

Spoiler

Many of those people are still around actually. Varus and Tyrian have been with her for a very long time now. Not to mention Jorah explicitly told Dany that Tyrian was trustworthy and that he was a good hand. And while Dany has done some of those things, it was never to the point of murdering innocent people. Everyone she killed deserved it or was given a chance at living. In this case, she's mowing down people who have nothing to do with her. She's ignoring Tyrian's council, Greyworm is just... not offering up any real advice at all. He's just on the warpath which is completely against everything Dany stood for.

 

This fails to address the Northmen. They just start murdering and raping women and children for no reason and don't listen to John despite his orders. He has to outright kill a man to stop him. Why does Dany's sudden attack on the innocent make everyone lose their minds just as much as she does?

 

[George P Global Moderator]

39 minutes ago, Emn1ty said:

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Many of those people are still around actually. Varus and Tyrian have been with her for a very long time now. Not to mention Jorah explicitly told Dany that Tyrian was trustworthy and that he was a good hand. And while Dany has done some of those things, it was never to the point of murdering innocent people. Everyone she killed deserved it or was given a chance at living. In this case, she's mowing down people who have nothing to do with her. She's ignoring Tyrian's council, Greyworm is just... not offering up any real advice at all. He's just on the warpath which is completely against everything Dany stood for.

 

This fails to address the Northmen. They just start murdering and raping women and children for no reason and don't listen to John despite his orders. He has to outright kill a man to stop him. Why does Dany's sudden attack on the innocent make everyone lose their minds just as much as she does?

 

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I hate to say it but it's as much about human nature in general than it is any missing narrative or some type of plot hole.  War isn't pretty, we know this for a fact.  And in many cases if the top chain of command is acting a specific way, those following tend to, you know, follow their lead?   I'm sure you can find examples of these throughout human real life history, let alone something that's fiction.    People acting brutal in a war, nothing new.  As a viewer on the outside you try to find some sense or reason to a mobs actions, but often there is none to be found.  Individuals are smart, groups are stupid, that's just how it goes.

 

[Emn1ty]

11 minutes ago, George P said:

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I hate to say it but it's as much about human nature in general than it is any missing narrative or some type of plot hole.  War isn't pretty, we know this for a fact.  And in many cases if the top chain of command is acting a specific way, those following tend to, you know, follow their lead?   I'm sure you can find examples of these throughout human real life history, let alone something that's fiction.    People acting brutal in a war, nothing new.  As a viewer on the outside you try to find some sense or reason to a mobs actions, but often there is none to be found.  Individuals are smart, groups are stupid, that's just how it goes.

 

Spoiler

Whether or not there are examples in real life isn't the point, storytelling doesn't have to be real life. Storytelling is about storytelling, and if your viewers are going to find it doesn't make sense then there's a flaw in your writing. To me it sounds like a rationalization, not good storytelling. You're finding things outside of the medium to explain what happened in it. That's a failing of the writers.

 

At no point in the whole of GoT were soldiers as out of control as what we saw there. The Dothraki sure. But the Unsullied were trained from birth to follow orders, so them going ballistic makes no real sense. Then you have the northmen, who hate the Lannisters and southerners for this exact behavior. Yet they just decided that because Dany (who pretty much none of them truly respect or trust) decided to start burning innocent people alive they might as well join in on the slaughter?

The setup in the episode prior to this demonstrated that the trust and respect lay with John, not Dany. But here we are, all of the Westeros armies just following Dany's lead and ignoring their own values and John's commands.

 

I still think this whole plot could have easily been fixed. Dany going for the Red Keep first, being unable to find Cersei so she started burning the entire city to get to her. The goal is clear, she hates Cersei and the Lannisters. Not the innocent people. They weren't even just collateral damage at this point, they were the target. No other ruler or dictator, even the Mad King himself, accomplished such an atrocity. But because of lazy writing we have her just snapping because of no reason (or bells if you want to meme).

 

[+Zagadka Subscriber²]

Spoiler

The big problem with the recent episode was people not expecting Dany. Which is dumb - as has been pointed out by you, me, and others, she was always on that path and had advisors hold her back. Most people feel like she just snapped (probably because they deluded themselves into adoring her without noticing her insane tendencies). They were almost too subtle in the past couple of episodes. And that is a failing; they could have spent more time on her changing. People are also upset with other "sudden changes" like Jaime going back to Cersei - which actually makes a lot of sense, he was always that character even with his growth. But people found it too sudden, since he hasn't been on the Cersei train (heh) for a long time and has been hanging out with the anti-Cersei crowd. *I* was mostly upset that the "clever" people like Tyrion and Cersei (what's up with Lannisters this season?) stopped being clever, which is another failure of the writers.

 

I only feel a little bad for Dany since she lost basically everyone she loved (including most of her Dothraki army) except one of her fire breathing kiddies, all on a conflict in the north that she was goaded into diverting her resources to, risking her quest for the throne (especially after Jon left her side)

 

Honestly, I really can't wait for tomorrow - not out of excitement, but because this bloody thing can end.

 

[+Warwagon MVC]

1 hour ago, Zagadka said:

 

 

 

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Honestly, I really can't wait for tomorrow - not out of excitement, but because this bloody thing can end.

 

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It's out of excitement for me. I love this season.

 

[patseguin Global Moderator]

Anyone read the Reddit spoilers? If they are true, this will end very disappointingly.

[Nerd Rage]

35 minutes ago, patseguin said:

Anyone read the Reddit spoilers? If they are true, this will end very disappointingly.

Spoiler

If true, very disappointing finale imo.

 

[Jim K Global Moderator]

That was fine.  Got a bit worried with one particular part ...

 

Spoiler

When Samwell brought up Democracy...I was thinking "oh no"

Enjoyed the banter at the end.

 

[+Zagadka Subscriber²]

Neither surprised nor disappointed, so good enough. Made sense. That's about it.

 

Oh, and HBO now has about 20 million fewer subscribers.

 

Spoiler

The only question is how much Bran knew.

 

Fare well, Arya.

 

[+rdlenk Subscriber²]

For better or worse, it is over. A triumph of television history and the end of an era. I can't recall any other media that has really united people in viewership like Game of Thrones. Never had another show that I could have deep, in-depth discussions about with my close friends, co-workers, random aunts and uncles and even my mother. I will miss it tremendously.

 

Spoiler

Pretty unhappy with the writing at the end. First two episodes were great, episode 5 was good, but the direction they took things really went wrong. Just my opinion of course, it's their show in the end, but it could have been better.

 

I could see the books ending similarly but with far more depth so that it makes a little more thematic sense. Probably less happy endings as well.

 

No matter how you feel about it, the amount of effort and talent that went into this series over the past 8 years is staggering and praise worthy. The technical achievement of these past few seasons is truly awesome. From the visual fx, acting, directing, set design, costumes, MUSIC; it is amazing.

 

We will (probably) never see its like again.

[McCordRm]

I enjoyed the Finale.

 

I wasn't too terribly surprised, as my predictions show. But I really liked the Arya ending; they gave her a good send-off, and

I'd actually be interested in seeing a spin-off for her.

 

I am, however, still kinda confused Bran never tried to take over the dragon. <Shrug> At the end he's like, I'll see if I can find it...

and I'm like, you never thought to try before??  Meh.  Also, I was really hoping Cersei had lived, somehow, and gotten her

blast of fire or something. Grr...

 

Good ending, though. And as I said, I really enjoyed the episode.

[+Warwagon MVC]

2 minutes ago, McCordRm said:

I enjoyed the Finale.

 

 

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I wasn't too terribly surprised, as my predictions show. But I really liked the Arya ending; they gave her a good send-off, and

 

I'd actually be interested in seeing a spin-off for her.

 

I am, however, still kinda confused Bran never tried to take over the dragon. <Shrug> At the end he's like, I'll see if I can find it...

and I'm like, you never thought to try before??  Meh.  Also, I was really hoping Cersei had lived, somehow, and gotten her

blast of fire or something. Grr...

 

Good ending, though. And as I said, I really enjoyed the episode.

 

 

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I also liked the credit music, because that's how everyone sings/hums the game of thrones song.

 

[DeusProto]

On 5/17/2019 at 7:34 PM, Zagadka said:

Don't worry, nerds will do what nerds always do when a story doesn't satisfy them; complain a lot, step completed, then fill in the blanks with theories and fan fiction. Star Wars is the king of retcons and explaining things a few decades after they were originally written without originally thinking about it. And the SW community LOVES doing it. This is why we have all of the theories in GoT about how characters do things that make no sense. I expect the books to conclude things a lot better than the series.

 

This is actually why some people are upset; they basically destroyed dozens of fan theories in a couple of hours (instead of having characters properly develop and change with motivations - they would end up doing what they did, but the rush they are in made them act without the proper changes to their characters to justify it).

Indeed. I'm glad I can enjoy things for what they are. I like all of the Star Wars movies - Episode I included. I'm so glad I'm not one of the bitter types of people who constantly complain about how a movie or TV series didn't go the way I wanted. It's not as if they will redo it so what is to be gained from it anyway. 

 

I haven't yet read the A Song of Ice and Fire books, and I'm glad I didn't yet -- in fear of not being able to enjoy the show because some subplot from the books wasn't included or this or that was changed. I would like to read them one day - but not until if/when GRRM finishes the saga. Otherwise it would be like reading 2/3 of a story where the third act is missing forever. 

 

One of the nicest things that Game of Thrones has spawned is the sudden development of a whole smorgasboard of high fantasy TV series. Pretty much most of the big names are working on something of their own to be 'their' GoT. And I'm all for that. Prior to GoT there wasn't really any high fantasy TV shows, certainly none done with a serious tone and the budget needed to do it justice. It's actually a rather underserved genre in terms of TV shows. GoT proves that there is a wide audience for high fantasy beyond the 'Young Adult Nerd' cohort. 

 

Spoiler

I loved the series finale. I would've liked a scene of the Citadel - particularly with the Archmaester, but Sam mentioning him and it being clear he is now a proper maester was good enough. Also, was hoping Ja'qen would pop up one last time, would've been nice to see him surprise Arya on the boat but ah well - just a minor thing. 9.5/10 stars. My favorite moment was Drogon burning the iron throne, further demonstrating the seeming intelligence of dragons in the lore -- it seems quite aware of what that throne represented and it was as if it was making a statement by burning it.

 

[+Raze Subscriber²]

Saddened to see the series end.  It is one of those very, very rare series to get better with each season, even with the hurried final one.

 

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I have to admit my heart went out to Jon, with all he went through and suffered, his unflagging decency and honor, but in the end it did seem, to me, that was the only way it could have gone.

 

 

[George P Global Moderator]

Looks like I was pretty spot on as well, along with some of you.

 

Spoiler

It didn't surprise me one bit that Jon said ###### it and left to go North.  His personality and actions fit with how the freefolk are.  Not this political backstabbing BS that's been going on.  Though, if you think about it, he might actually now end up being the "King of the True North".  heh.

 

Sansa Queen of Winterfell, no surprise, her somehow taking the iron throne wouldn't have worked either, regardless of how hard her fans wanted it.  Story wise though, nah, she's been tainted by the game IMO, she's a few wrong steps away from turning into Cersei.  Besides, a Stark needs to be north, so yeah.   

 

The Dragon burning the Iron throne is a whole full circle type moment, since a dragon made it, so it's the only way it would get taken out.

 

 

Realistically,  even if this season was 10eps, the events and ending would've played out the same the way I see it.   Why delay things?  And for those who think, or expect, the books to be different, I doubt it.  Probably way more build up and so on, but the general plot points should all match up with what we got in the TV series.   

[+Warwagon MVC]

8 hours ago, George P said:

Looks like I was pretty spot on as well, along with some of you.

 

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It didn't surprise me one bit that Jon said ###### it and left to go North.  His personality and actions fit with how the freefolk are.  Not this political backstabbing BS that's been going on.  Though, if you think about it, he might actually now end up being the "King of the True North".  heh.

 

Sansa Queen of Winterfell, no surprise, her somehow taking the iron throne wouldn't have worked either, regardless of how hard her fans wanted it.  Story wise though, nah, she's been tainted by the game IMO, she's a few wrong steps away from turning into Cersei.  Besides, a Stark needs to be north, so yeah.   

 

The Dragon burning the Iron throne is a whole full circle type moment, since a dragon made it, so it's the only way it would get taken out.

 

 

Realistically,  even if this season was 10eps, the events and ending would've played out the same the way I see it.   Why delay things?  And for those who think, or expect, the books to be different, I doubt it.  Probably way more build up and so on, but the general plot points should all match up with what we got in the TV series.   

It's funny, so many 1 stars on IMDB .. so far it's at 4.8 LOL. I thought the ending was fine.

[George P Global Moderator]

19 minutes ago, warwagon said:

It's funny, so many 1 stars on IMDB .. so far it's at 4.8 LOL. I thought the ending was fine.

I don't know what most people expected?  I guess they wanted some huge twist and surprise but oh well.  The ending was never going to please everyone.  I'm going to sit back and wait for GRRM to finally finish the books and see what his ending is, if it's mostly how the tv show did it then fans need to just deal with it and move on to some other series.

[Emn1ty]

Spoiler

The ending was actually satisfactory to me, even if it wasn't actually satisfying in a GoT sense. It was the most GoT's episode of the season when you think about it. Nobody really got what they wanted, but everyone ended up where they should be. The only one I don't agree with is Bran but when you think a little it makes sense.

 

That doesn't erase the last three episodes though, which is why the ending feels so crappy. I think people are taking it out on the finale rather than where the real blame lies; with the three episodes prior to it that didn't treat the franchise properly. Power levels were all over the place, characters making incredibly stupid decisions for the sake of shock and awe plot. Characters acting out of character, or lacking the proper setup for their behavior. Plot armor out the wazoo.

 

I think there's really only one change I'd make to this season, and that's the order of of how things went in the second to last episode. Instead of Dany just murdering the people right away. She should have simply gone for the red keep. As she burned it to get the Cersei, she wasn't finding her and couldn't tell if she was dead. So she extends her wrath from just the towers to the whole keep; leveling it (and unknowingly burying her target in the foundations. The longer she goes without the satisfaction of her being dead the more her frustration and wrath builds. She starts circling the tower, killing crowds of frightened people whom the queen might be hiding in. Cersei has already demonstrated she'll hide behind her people, so Dany will mow them down until she knows that Cersei couldn't possibly have escaped.

 

That one change, in my opinion, would seriously redeem the last season of its most incredible flaw. All of the other issues I had are trivial to that one.

 

[McCordRm]

 

My friends and I are discussing Jon's decision. My take (which I thought was obvious, but apparently not

due to the discussions) is that the writers were saying everything has come full circle. The North is now separate

from the other Kingdoms like it used to be with Sansa, there's a normal throne again with the Iron Throne

destroyed (even if it is a wheelchair at the moment), and there's a new King Beyond The Wall who used to

be Night's Watch with Jon. <Shrug>

 

The only really new thing is Arya going off to discover new Kingdoms, which I think is cool.

 

[George P Global Moderator]

3 hours ago, McCordRm said:

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My friends and I are discussing Jon's decision. My take (which I thought was obvious, but apparently not

due to the discussions) is that the writers were saying everything has come full circle. The North is now separate

from the other Kingdoms like it used to be with Sansa, there's a normal throne again with the Iron Throne

destroyed (even if it is a wheelchair at the moment), and there's a new King Beyond The Wall who used to

be Night's Watch with Jon. <Shrug>

 

The only really new thing is Arya going off to discover new Kingdoms, which I think is cool.

 

Spoiler

No, you're pretty much spot on, lots of the arcs/plots or w/e you call it end up coming around full circle, heck the whole idea of history repeating itself is a main thing in the story.   How many times did characters flat out say they have to "break the cycle".   I think lots of people just wanted whatever they wanted because of whoever they felt was their fav character.  Not so much what the story was building up to or hinting at.    That's why I felt that Jon wouldn't take the throne even if others wanted him to, and that he would say f it all and head North where the people are much like he is personality wise.   

 

You could make an argument for it needing a few more eps to better flush out some things, and not make it feel rushed, but I doubt an extra 2 or 4 episodes would've changed things as far as how people felt about the end.

[Jim K Global Moderator]

I watched one particular scene again ...

 

Spoiler

Jon killing Dany ... and you know ... I love that scene.  Mostly because of the work they did with Drogon ... I watched his "emotions" more closely this time around and you could almost feel his anger and sadness.  Drogon melting the Iron Throne was fitting ... he lost his brothers and his mother because of it.

 

 

...and this scene was outstanding

 

 

Except I'm not sure how Grey Worm beat Jon Snow here ... he was busy cutting the throats of soldiers (teleport perhaps?)

 

All the CGI artist involved (not just with this scene but GoT in general) did an outstanding job...hopefully they will do amazing work with the prequels.  

 

With that said ...

 

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I'm more disappointed, after thinking about it a little more, in Bran being King.  Correct me if I'm wrong ... he knew what Dany would do ... he knew she would massacre thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of innocents.  He is somewhat responsible ... no?

 

[+Zagadka Subscriber²]

Spoiler

Yea, my only remaining question is how much Bran knew, which we probably won't get answered until if/when Martin finishes the books. His powers are pretty undefined on the show.

 

Was a little surprised that the rest of the houses just let Sansa secede. I suppose she has more power because of the Night King, but I was expecting the entire kingdom to fracture. They all seemed pretty cool with it.

 

Edit

 

Spoiler

What I'm really glad they didn't do was have the Unsullied and Dothraki hang around or try for power, and especially that they didn't end it with like a white walker or something. Glad they just let it end and the characters move on.

 

Edit 2

 

Spoiler

Also, did anyone else notice how Arya basically snuck past the entire Unsullied force, Jon, and Dany, then just appeared next to him like it was nothing? I think that was a reference to how she got past the white walkers

 

[+Red King Subscriber²]

Spoiler

 

The last season felt extremely rushed, similarly to the previous season's last few episodes. The pacing was extremely fast - no depth or scheming.

 

One of the best things about GOT was its lack of tropes and subversion of expectations with careful and reasonable writing. The last season did none of that.

 

Most unsatisfying thing was the battle with the undead. Sure it was good battle like in fantasy movies. But I think it shat all over the build up of the night king fella.

 

Overall, I felt like I was watching something that had the skin of GOT but nothing else.