Mafia II

[notuptome2004]

http://n4g.com/news/585419/mafia-ii-final-ps3-build-has-no-grass-less-blood-and-inferior-cloth-movement

Quote from 2k games Sr. Manager, Interactive Marketing, 2K Games

Hey guys,

When designing Mafia II, we optimized for each of the three different systems the game would run on to make sure the core experience was the best it could be. Because of this, there are some differences from one platform to the next. In terms of the PS3 version, I wanted to clarify a couple points you have been asking about: There will not be highly detailed grass or large pools of blood, the cloth movement is less noticeable than, for example, the PC version, and the visual fidelity in the demo is generally representative of what you?ll see in the full game.

Our aim is to make a cohesive and immersive experience and optimize the game for each platform so that it could run its best. And while there are some differences between each version, I?m sure you?ll find that the core gameplay and the heart of Mafia II remains no matter whether you play on PS3, 360, or PC.

[Hedon]

There will not be highly detailed grass

Yeah, no ****!

[treemonster]

I just dont think it's right that nVidia can buy PhysX and basically call dibs on pretty much physics in all games. I f**king hate nVidia and I'm glad they lost 100+ million this quarter.

physx was going no where before nvidia bought it. there's also havoc which runs fairly well on the cpu in games like bc2, and i've heard that amd/ati is developing an open source physics platform that promises to run on any OpenCL capable video card.

Haha, that is awesome! I just deleted all the cloth files except for Vito - Left everything else in place and now playing with High PhysX / APEX on my ATi rig with no noticeable performance hit whatsoever, hilarious!

Just goes to show all this PhysX Nvidia hype-crap is a joke - It's easily offloaded to the CPU with a tiny, tiny tweak and the hardware part that is supposed to do it oh so well is struggling.

by tiny tweak you mean disabling/removing 90% of it's in game usage?

although i think it's great that this can be done for ati users. and that unlike batman aa it's available to ati users at all.

i have yet to play the actual demo outside of the benchmark, but i've seen people being able to play with physx on medium-high on 9800s or 250s just fine, with everything else except aa on high, after the updated client and physx patch is properly installed.

[Sethos]

physx was going no where before nvidia bought it. there's also havoc which runs fairly well on the cpu in games like bc2, and i've heard that amd/ati is developing an open source physics platform that promises to run on any OpenCL capable video card.

by tiny tweak you mean disabling/removing 90% of it's in game usage?

What? You just remove some horribly optimized cloth animations from characters you don't play - Yes, it's on a fair few characters but in terms of visual representation it's less

than 15%. All the PhysX visuals are in your own clothes ( Which you keep ), the added particles ( Which you keep ), the smoke collision ( which you keep ) etc. so yes - It's a tiny tweak.

Not to mention, high-end Nvidia GPUs can't even run it 1:1 without a massive performance hit :rolleyes:

PhysX is a joke.

[shakey]

Well at least for once its not PC users getting the shaft with crappy console ports.

Ya, PC'ers need a good game by another company other than valve or blizzard hehe.

The ps3 version of this is just a shame though. I can't believe they are cutting out so much of the quality. During the demo, textures were blurry and just horrible looking. Items lost detail after just a few feet of distance, and the camera was up in the back of your face. I see no reason to buy this if you already have GTA 4 or Red Dead Redemption. As both of those games offer so much more.

Get this on PC and nothing else. Help the PC world out some :p

[treemonster]

it just isn't optimized with the cpu in mind to this degree of usage. some parts of it obviously run better than others on cpu. in the games i've played that use it to limited degrees on the cpu only, it's mostly been fog type effects or objects flying around from exploded objects and such.

there must be a reason devs choose to go with physx over havoc. maybe it's cheaper or easier to implement. havoc isn't without it's issues either.

[ViperAFK]

Probably because nvidia gives them $$

Ya, PC'ers need a good game by another company other than valve or blizzard hehe.

The ps3 version of this is just a shame though. I can't believe they are cutting out so much of the quality. During the demo, textures were blurry and just horrible looking. Items lost detail after just a few feet of distance, and the camera was up in the back of your face. I see no reason to buy this if you already have GTA 4 or Red Dead Redemption. As both of those games offer so much more.

Get this on PC and nothing else. Help the PC world out some :p

Sounds like you are describing gta4 on every paltform :whistle:

[Sethos]

it just isn't optimized with the cpu in mind to this degree of usage. some parts of it obviously run better than others on cpu. in the games i've played that use it to limited degrees on the cpu only, it's mostly been fog type effects or objects flying around from exploded objects and such.

there must be a reason devs choose to go with physx over havoc. maybe it's cheaper or easier to implement. havoc isn't without it's issues either.

Because Nvidia were ready to help them out with implementation and most likely money to get their crappy product crowbarred into a game of that calibre. Havoc would end up costing them money, buying

the license etc. whereas PhysX was offered to them on a silver platter.

[shakey]

Probably because nvidia gives them $$

Sounds like you are describing gta4 on every paltform :whistle:

LOL, almost, but I found Mafia II on the ps3 to be even worse. I went from a PC gta 4 to ps3, and noticed how horribly low resolution everything was. Then I downloaded Mafia II demo a couple days later, and was just floored by how much horrible it looked than gta4. I was able to get passed how gta4 looked on the ps3 after a bit, but I either have not had enough time with mafia II to do the same, or it is just that much worse that I can not get passed it. All I know is, it is horribly under detailed and low resolution.

[treemonster]

Because Nvidia were ready to help them out with implementation and most likely money to get their crappy product crowbarred into a game of that calibre. Havoc would end up costing them money, buying

the license etc. whereas PhysX was offered to them on a silver platter.

you got a source that is worthwhile to read saying nvidia pays devs to implement physx over paying for havoc? or is it just more anti nvidia FUD?

[Sethos]

you got a source that is worthwhile to read saying nvidia pays devs to implement physx over paying for havoc? or is it just more anti nvidia FUD?

It's called obviousness - Look it up.

Yeah, let's use a completely terrible physics system that is locked to one hardware platform unless you want it offloaded on the CPU - The optimization is horrible and the effects are pretty bland. And then let's release

a "PhysX Mafia II demonstration" video where Nvidia developers are running around boasting their crap like a bad infomercial. Not to mention ATI are now steamrolling Nvidia so they are desperate to get some exposure, especially

to their GPU exclusive 'features. It's obvious they ( Nvidia ) approached 2K Czech with an offer of helping them implement it and the license for it, probably a bit of money to boot just to have PhysX ( or Nvidia exposure! ) plastered

everywhere - 2K Czech saves time and money, Nvidia gets exposure and lots of it.

You'd have to be pretty thick not to see it.

[treemonster]

or games that use any implementation of physx at all would not have any physics in them if physx did not exist or whatever other reason devs choose to use it.

neither of us are devs so we don't know what factors in to the decision to use physx over havoc or in house made physics engines or to use physics at all.

valve used to have havoc as a selling point for hl2 and the source engine games it made around that time, but lately valve made source engine powered games seem to be lacking it. i don't know why but it's missed.

and mowing down every building and tree in sight in bc2 sounds like a great use of a physics engine doesn't it?

[notuptome2004]

Well as a friend of mine in the gtagameing forums pointed out to another user about physx

exactly my GTX 260 was always at 99% usage, and along with that this game uses dedicated PhysX cards very well (unlike most PhysX games) my GTS 250 was showing 30 - 60% usage for just the PhysX alone which is extremely good.

The PhysX effects is not just the coat movement, the explosion effects, heatwaves, rain effects, rubble all over the ground after an explosion happens or rubble flying off a wall or post from gun shots, smoke effects, wood splintering, glass breaking, dents in cars from vehicle damage, and many more all contribute to it.

[Sethos]

The PhysX effects is not just the coat movement, the explosion effects, heatwaves, rain effects, rubble all over the ground after an explosion happens or rubble flying off a wall or post from gun shots, smoke effects, wood splintering, glass breaking, dents in cars from vehicle damage, and many more all contribute to it.

You mean the basics of a physics engine? It's supposed to.

All that you mention is basically redundant as there's 3 things in PhysX; Debris / particles, collision and APEX which is the clothing. The debris looks dreadful most of the time, it's huge chunks of blob that you can't identify

and doesn't even look realistic. I'm running with PhysX enabled and the debris constantly annoy me, especially when it lands on the car - Yes, it collides with the car but it looks WEIRD. It floats all over the car, up on the roof

and then skates down the back. It sometimes float like 30cm above the bonnet of the car.

Explosions is just more debris. Car damage isn't done by PhysX as far as I heard, done by the engine itself and proper dynamic damage can be unlocked.

The ONLY thing that I find mildly impressive is the smoke collision with the car but that is outweighed by the fact, the smoke puffs look like separate entities with a mind of its own,

rather than fluid smoke.

PhysX is a poor physics engine because 1) it's cockblocks a huge number of users, unlike Havok - 2) it offers nothing Havok can't do, basically 3) It's badly optimized, it even puts top-end Nvidia hardware into a headlock and keeps it there.

It has POTENTIAL to do calculations that could make a game awesome, say the wind calculations done dynamically in perhaps a racing or flight simulator but it's so demanding and you would also

need to create these things for the hardware to process and crunch. Stick with Havok, it works and works brilliantly - Most top games use it in some way or another, console games included.

The fact Nvidia wants you to buy a SECOND high-tier card simply to act as a PPU should be a massive warning sign, this is all just a gimmick.

[treemonster]

3) It's badly optimized, it even puts top-end Nvidia hardware into a headlock and keeps it there

where did you get this impression?

i went from 10fps to 37fps with physx on high in the mafia 2 benchmark. and from people with similar hardware to mine the actual game itself get much higher fps with these settings in the actual demo. (they were using fraps in the demo to determine fps). hell i've seen people with lower end hardware than mine with every setting the same as mine say they got similar fps in game as my bench fps with physx on high after using the patch with only aa off all other settings the same.

perhaps i will run precision and monitor my ppu usage sometime today in the bench and in game, or disable my ppu and run it on my 480 alone and see what the difference in fps games are. as the other month evga rep admitted using a ppu can actually lower fps depending on the hardware used in hardware physx games. though from some in the wild testing in batman aa, using a ppu tended to add about 5 fps.

[Sethos]

where did you get this impression?

i went from 10fps to 37fps with physx on high in the mafia 2 benchmark. and from people with similar hardware to mine the actual game itself get much higher fps with these settings in the actual demo. (they were using fraps in the demo to determine fps). hell i've seen people with lower end hardware than mine with every setting the same as mine say they got similar fps in game as my bench fps with physx on high after using the patch with only aa off all other settings the same.

perhaps i will run precision and monitor my ppu usage sometime today in the bench and in game, or disable my ppu and run it on my 480 alone and see what the difference in fps games are. as the other month evga rep admitted using a ppu can actually lower fps depending on the hardware used in hardware physx games. though from some in the wild testing in batman aa, using a ppu tended to add about 5 fps.

37fps compared to my 70+ FPS ( with PhysX 'tweak' )? I'm flabbergasted you find such a MASSIVE FPS hit acceptable for; a bit of ugly debris, collision smoke and clothes that sway a bit.

And you have a PPU?! Are you really that fond of Nvidia you can't see how pathetic that is?

If you don't call that badly optimized, I must laugh :laugh:

You seem to be very fond of PhysX - I hate it like the plague, let's agree to disagree instead of this pointless back and forth.

[notuptome2004]

You mean the basics of a physics engine? It's supposed to.

All that you mention is basically redundant as there's 3 things in PhysX; Debris / particles, collision and APEX which is the clothing. The debris looks dreadful most of the time, it's huge chunks of blob that you can't identify

and doesn't even look realistic. I'm running with PhysX enabled and the debris constantly annoy me, especially when it lands on the car - Yes, it collides with the car but it looks WEIRD. It floats all over the car, up on the roof

and then skates down the back. It sometimes float like 30cm above the bonnet of the car.

Explosions is just more debris. Car damage isn't done by PhysX as far as I heard, done by the engine itself and proper dynamic damage can be unlocked.

The ONLY thing that I find mildly impressive is the smoke collision with the car but that is outweighed by the fact, the smoke puffs look like separate entities with a mind of its own,

rather than fluid smoke.

PhysX is a poor physics engine because 1) it's cockblocks a huge number of users, unlike Havok - 2) it offers nothing Havok can't do, basically 3) It's badly optimized, it even puts top-end Nvidia hardware into a headlock and keeps it there.

It has POTENTIAL to do calculations that could make a game awesome, say the wind calculations done dynamically in perhaps a racing or flight simulator but it's so demanding and you would also

need to create these things for the hardware to process and crunch. Stick with Havok, it works and works brilliantly - Most top games use it in some way or another, console games included.

The fact Nvidia wants you to buy a SECOND high-tier card simply to act as a PPU should be a massive warning sign, this is all just a gimmick.

what i posted was from a friends comment on another user who thought the only physx stuff was the cloth moment stuff witch it is not.

now as for the rest go in to the demo in to the dinner and use the tommy gun and tot destroy the tables and seats with bullets and windows and shades and everything tot get destroyed and also if you looked at the nvidia physx video for mafia 2 they showed a scene of you and A.I shooting the crap out of a dinner on the outside and it falling apart from the amount of bullet spray your giving it . now i would assume in real life those things will happen given enough fire power to the said building made of wood and stuff

here is the topic in another forum if it is ok for me to post since it is the same topic http://www.gtagaming.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123619&page=7 Mafia II Pre-Release Thread.

[treemonster]

37fps compared to my 70+ FPS ( with PhysX 'tweak' )? I'm flabbergasted you find such a MASSIVE FPS hit acceptable for; a bit of ugly debris, collision smoke and clothes that sway a bit.

And you have a PPU?! Are you really that fond of Nvidia you can't see how pathetic that is?

If you don't call that badly optimized, I must laugh :laugh:

You seem to be very fond of PhysX - I hate it like the plague, let's agree to disagree instead of this pointless back and forth.

do you have AA on?

i'll do the bench with aa off and see what i get. from what i hear this is the biggest performance hit even on 400 series card which do aa so well in every other game.

and if you hate physx so much, run the game with it off or don't buy games that took the evil nvidia's blood money to put physx in their game. simple.

[Sethos]

The dinner falling apart is done without PhysX, that's just a simple detach of an object and then let it roll - What they want to show is all the debris.

and if you hate physx so much, run the game with it off or don't buy games that took the evil nvidia's blood money to put physx in their game. simple.

Yeah, let me skip great games because they use a crap physics overlay :rolleyes: /facepalm.

[inferniac]

Looks like we have explained why PS3 graphics are so bad (found this on 2K forums)

Mafia II Ported To The PS3 By Inexperienced PS3 Developer: Massive Bear Studios

The reason for why the PS3 version of Mafia II has No Grass, No Blood Pools, No Clothes Physics & No Motion Blur is because the game was ported to the PlayStation 3 not by 2K Games themselves but instead by a new up and coming development studio, Massive Bear in Vancouver, British Columbia.. Who are obviously very rubbish or new to PS3 development.

If there's anyone to blame for the PS3 version's shortcomings/issues.. It's these guys.

Source

Massive Bear Studios Portfolio

[Sethos]

"If there's anyone to blame for the PS3 version's shortcomings/issues.. It's these guys."

Yeah or the convoluted PS3.

[inferniac]

"If there's anyone to blame for the PS3 version's shortcomings/issues.. It's these guys."

Yeah or the convoluted PS3.

True, PS3 is one of the best examples of poor harware design. I don't understand why woukd Sony do this.

[Sethos]

True, PS3 is one of the best examples of poor harware design. I don't understand why woukd Sony do this.

Thankfully, they claim to have brought in game developers to help out with the development of the PS4 - To optimize it for easy game development.

[treemonster]

well i ran the bench again with aa off. 45fps. min was up to 11 from 2fps. max fps appears capped at 125fps.

i;'ll assume from your mission sethos you were running without aa on, and iirc you have a 5970 in your system...

just did the actual demo, with fraps on same settings as above, stable 77 fps peaked at 79 fps while driving fast.

[HostileGamer]

Well all I know is that Battlefield BC2 uses Havok, and it plays FANTASTIC on my AMD Phenom II @ 3.0ghz with my Radeon 5850 GFX card. When I play Mafia II with the Physx I hardly see any reason to have it on. At least Bad Company 2 has destructable environments that makes great use of the the Havok engine, where Mafia II is maybe some columns here and some window treatments there. I cant wait for games to embrace OpenCL for a way to enhance physics on any GPGPU capable GPU.