Oracle sues Google over Android operating system

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

I wonder exactly what Oracle claim they own, since Sun open sourced the class library and compiler (the parts they haven't open sourced, were the parts they didn't own the copyright to)

Edit: It's funny to see the OpenJDK site with Oracle branding, showing the developer posts about Oracle trying to end it.

[Growled Member]

I hope Oracle does manage to kill java. It's been a curse on the web from day one.

[Ci7]

somehow i read the title as

Opera sues ..

[+M2Ys4U Subscriber¹]

This shows exactly why software patents are an awful idea.

It boiled down to this, Google (and other's) wanted to use Java differently then suns "standards".

Sun caved in and created exceptions with a special java designation / name, but really didn't want to.

Open Souce means this - if Google alters the java code, they have to make the altered code available to anyone that wants has it.

Other people then can use your code without your permission any changes they do they have to give the code oit.

Well, Sun placed Java under the GNU GPL (with a classpath exception) but they explicitly retained all rights to the mobile version of Java. Google aren't using any of this though, they created their own non-compliant version of Java (Dalvik only supports a subset of the Java spec)

I haven't really kept up with Java but that's what I thought. Java is open source so how can they sue if the code is published (unless it violates something like the GNU license or whatever license Java runs under)?

Java (but not the mobile edition) is under the GNU GPL with a classpath exception - however Google didn't use this. They clean-room reverse-engineered Java and created their own register-based version (regular Java is stack-based) that allows them to license it under the Apache License, which is more permissive than the GPL.

While the GPL'd version would protect Google from Oracle's patents, they decided for one reason or another to not use OpenJDK and create Dalvik from scratch.

I wonder exactly what Oracle claim they own, since Sun open sourced the class library and compiler (the parts they haven't open sourced, were the parts they didn't own the copyright to)

Edit: It's funny to see the OpenJDK site with Oracle branding, showing the developer posts about Oracle trying to end it.

Patents, about 6 of them IIRC. Plus, Oracle aren't trying to end OpenJDK - it has nothing to do with Android/Dalvik. At least not intentionally. They've probably hastened Java's demise with this lawsuit though, and I'm sure they don't actually give a damn about Java, all they care about is the patents.

I hope Oracle does manage to kill java. It's been a curse on the web from day one.

Java is used for a lot more than the web...

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

...

Patents, about 6 of them IIRC. Plus, Oracle aren't trying to end OpenJDK - it has nothing to do with Android/Dalvik. At least not intentionally. They've probably hastened Java's demise with this lawsuit though, and I'm sure they don't actually give a damn about Java, all they care about is the patents.

...

Yeah, I read up on it more after making the comment.

Software patents are stupid.

[evo_spook]

Yeah, I read up on it more after making the comment.

Software patents are stupid.

Usually here on Neowin it depends who is getting sued and if the herd are for the defendant or not.

[Boz]

Google responded to them.. They are saying this whole lawsuit is ridiculous and completely baseless.

Google's statement:

We are disappointed Oracle has chosen to attack both Google and the open-source Java community with this baseless lawsuit. The open-source Java community goes beyond any one corporation and works every day to make the web a better place. We will strongly defend open-source standards and will continue to work with the industry to develop the Android platform.

[Quattrone]

however Google didn't use this. They clean-room reverse-engineered Java and created their own register-based version (regular Java is stack-based) that allows them to license it under the Apache License, which is more permissive than the GPL.

While the GPL'd version would protect Google from Oracle's patents, they decided for one reason or another to not use OpenJDK and create Dalvik from scratch.

So does that means Google can win? If it's true what you said then Oracle does not have base in this lawsuit.

[Xerxes]

I suppose the difference is that others support actual (Oracle) Java platforms like J2ME. Android does not. Android does not implement any standard Java platform, and is not even capable of running Java bytecode.

It's essentially a custom platform that just happens to use the Java programming language (with support for some standard Java libraries.) Software written for Oracle's Java platforms can't run on Android, and vice versa. They are incompatible, both in source code and executable form.

Google makes plenty of money from it. Profit is the sole reason Android exists.

That is quite true but monkey13 is correct, Google make no money off Android itself (they give it away for free to manufacturers who are then free to customise it how they see fit). The $$$ are coming in from Google search referrals, ads and such within the Android system. As long as that remains profitable, Google will continue to support and further develop Android. Well that is how I understand it all works at any rate.

[+M2Ys4U Subscriber¹]

So does that means Google can win? If it's true what you said then Oracle does not have base in this lawsuit.

I sure hope so but patent lawsuits are complex beasts. Software patents especially so as it's basically a patent on a number.

[+BeLGaRaTh Subscriber¹]

They should have consulted the oracle to see this coming ... oh wait ... erm.

[Bengal34]

That is quite true but monkey13 is correct, Google make no money off Android itself (they give it away for free to manufacturers who are then free to customise it how they see fit). The $$$ are coming in from Google search referrals, ads and such within the Android system. As long as that remains profitable, Google will continue to support and further develop Android. Well that is how I understand it all works at any rate.

The OS is free but Google charges the manufacturer for support and to put first party programs on it.

[HawkMan]

That is quite true but monkey13 is correct, Google make no money off Android itself (they give it away for free to manufacturers who are then free to customise it how they see fit). The $$$ are coming in from Google search referrals, ads and such within the Android system. As long as that remains profitable, Google will continue to support and further develop Android. Well that is how I understand it all works at any rate.

That doesn't actually make android free anyway though. the handset makers still need to pay several other companies like, MS and apple, and probably nokia and sony ericsson for technology and patents used in android.

[hdood]

It's also just semantics. It doesn't matter if the profits are direct or indirect.

[BajiRav]

From what I understand, this seems like the exact same reason Sun successfully sued Microsoft - for creating their own custom Java/JVM. If true, I don't think Oracle is doing anything different/wrong here? (It's taken some efforts to say that with my prejudice against Oracle)

I also read somewhere that GPLed java does not allow for supersetting the JVM and OpenJDK is not suitable for mobile JVMs. That is the reason Google had to create Dalvik which is akin to supersetting the JVM.

[ichi]

From what I understand, this seems like the exact same reason Sun successfully sued Microsoft - for creating their own custom Java/JVM. If true, I don't think Oracle is doing anything different/wrong here? (It's taken some efforts to say that with my prejudice against Oracle)

I also read somewhere that GPLed java does not allow for supersetting the JVM and OpenJDK is not suitable for mobile JVMs. That is the reason Google had to create Dalvik which is akin to supersetting the JVM.

Not really. Microsoft's was a case of trademark infringement and breach of contract.

Google hasn't infringed the trademark since it's only using java as reference to the programing language (which is perfectly fine) but not about the VM, nor are they claiming any sort of compatibility as MS did.

Regarding the breach of contract Google didn't sign such a thing, so no breach either.

Regardless of whether Oracle has a case or not (considering the sorry state of software patents in the US they might very well do) this whole thing is about patents, and as such it has nothing to do with Sun's past claims over MS.

[hdood]

I also read somewhere that GPLed java does not allow for supersetting the JVM and OpenJDK is not suitable for mobile JVMs. That is the reason Google had to create Dalvik which is akin to supersetting the JVM.

You can't impose any restrictions on GPL software. If you do, then it is no longer GPL. If Oracle has any GPL code, then you are free to do anything at all with it. Trademarks and patents are a separate matter though, and you need separate permission to use these.

Also, it is only the source code and executable binaries for a specific implementation that are covered by copyright. If you were to reimplement it from scratch without using any of the original code, then the owner of the original code has zero rights to your work.

[evo_spook]

from Ars

When Sun opened the Java technology and released the programming language under the terms of GNU's General Public License (GPL), it added a special exception to the license to ensure that applications which link against Java would not be roped in by the copyleft provisions. Such an exception was not made available, however, for J2ME?Sun's mobile variant of Java. Companies that want to use J2ME for commercial closed-sourced development have to pay licensing fees to Sun. Google avoided paying those licensing fees, because it built its own totally independent Java runtime, compilation mechanism, and bytecode format rather than using J2ME itself.

[lordcanti86]

Regardless of whether or not Oracle has a case (even after reading up on some of this stuff I have no idea), Google has to deal with this quickly. They can't afford for this case to drag on and create a cloud of uncertainty over Android since some developers (and possibly OEMs) could bail as a result.

[PreKe]

Is it true that the lawsuit is because Google changed Java, and still called it Java? If so, the lawsuit is perfectly fine. Changing Java and not renaming it is exactly what Microsoft did, and it is as evil when Google does it as when Microsoft does it. If that is indeed the basis of this, of course.

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

They created their own underlying VM/JIT, and used open source class libraries (not the Sun ones, the Apache ones)

The actual language is the same though, and that's all that Google promote as being Java.