official Star Wars: The Old Republic

[Teebor]

Well sadly I had hoped that this was further away but it is here now and a lot of people I know are going to quit because of it.

I've played two games in the past which went F2P and they were both ruined, I expect the same here.

If the game had been designed to be F2P from the beginning then it would have been a different story I'm sure.

[Hell-In-A-Handbasket]

If you want to see what will happen to SWTOR, look at STO.

It is also a Retail Subscription that switched to a F2P w/subscription option. Everything is C-Store, now called something else. There is verry limited new content thats free. ( its the Season Episodes ) and an episode happenes A couple times a year, an episode is maby 3 quests, with 4 episodes total.

Store aditions are couple times a month.

They are wanting to make money, Free doesnt make Money, RMT Store does, or else they wouldnt have switched to it.

Subscription gives you free RTM currency for a reason, yes subscription will have all access to all new content, but New content will be RMT and you can access for free if you save your RMT stipend or buy more.

RMT not a seperate form of content, and they never said the content would be free

They also said Subscribers would have access to 100% of content, they never said How, and if that was true the monthly Stipend of Free Cartel Points would not exist

[spaceelf]

RMT not a seperate form of content, and they never said the content would be free

They also said Subscribers would have access to 100% of content, they never said How, and if that was true the monthly Stipend of Free Cartel Points would not exist

In LOTRO the extra moneys just let you buy boosters, like experience gain boosters or skill boosters, among other things. So it can still be true as such.

[HawkMan]

LOTRO isn't even worth playing free. and yes, i tried.

[Emn1ty]

When was it ever announced to kill WoW, When is beating WoW the only measure of success for an MMO.

I think this is both correct and incorrect. Beating WoW means curing the stale nature of the MMO market. Breaking away from the WoW model makes for new and interesting possibilities (EVE, Aion, Warhammer, GW2, Rift, Tera, Secret World for examples). Although I don't think an MMO needs to beat WoW's subs, they just need to steal its fanbase. The less people playing WoW the better. I don't think the game is bad, but I don't like rewarding a greedy developer who has yet to advance their payment model because they know people will pay for it ($40 expansions + $15/month sub, currently the only MMO still using this model).

WoW has caused the MMO genre to stagnate, and willingly so. It took many semi-failed releases for WoW to realize the market was evolving and even then they've only tweaked the game to be more easily accessible. I feel like Blizzard does not intend to innovate, merely regurgitate old content with a new skin. That's all they've ever done. The only thing that is remotely revamped is Diablo III, so maybe there is hope there.

The goal should not be to defeat WoW directly, it should be to shift the market demands away from WoW's current state. The more people want what WoW doesn't offer the more people will switch to those other games. Unfortunately when it comes to games like LOTRO, STO and even SWTOR this wasn't really the case. Sure there is voice acting, or space battles or a familiar world to explore but in the end the game played the same. The goals in-game were the same, the end game was the same and despite significantly defining features the rest of the game was cookie-cutter MMO. I fear the same will happen with Tera if its political system doesn't become meaningful. So far the only thing I have any confidence in is GW2, but even with such dynamic missions in the game it could become a very stagnant experience.

I doubt any of the MMO's in the next few years will ever dethrone WoW. Not until something drastically new to the genre is made that creates a world people really want to be a part of it and the community. A game where there is always something new and the community/playerbase itself can add to the world.

But in the end what it comes down to with SWTOR is that the game was heavily single-player focused. This was what led me to stop playing STO, the lack of a truly dynamic world. I want a world to explore and take hold of. Not one that I run around like a theme park experiencing the pre-arranged outlets of entertainment.

SWTOR still has more paying subscribers than Aion ever did, so...

Korean MMO's seem to have a hard sell here. Most of the time they are too grind heavy for western audiences. Thus why Tera completely changed the experience model for their western launch and shifted experience to quests rather than monsters (which actually is counter-intuitive to the game's focus).

[Routerbad]

I played WoW, and was bored out of my mind. I understand why people would say SWTOR is a cookie cutter MMO, but I don't feel that way when I play it. It's been out for less than a year and everyone expects it to keep pace sub-wise and content-wise, with an MMO that's seven years it's senior. I'll continue to pay for my sub and I hope many do, or play for free then decide to sub for more content.

A friend of mine plays SWTOR and WoW ( :| ) and will say things over mumble along the lines of "sorry I have to leave the game, guys, I don't want to but I have a raid in 10 minutes in WoW." It's insane how locked in he feels to WoW, like he doesn't really enjoy playing it, but he can't bring himself to drop something he's invested so heavily in.

[trag3dy]

SWTOR still has more paying subscribers than Aion ever did, so...

I would be interested to see where you are getting those numbers from.

[metal_dragen Veteran]

If you want to see what will happen to SWTOR, look at STO.

This is not STO and there is no connection between STO and SWTOR other than the fact they are both sci-fi themed MMOs based on popular existing IP.

It is also a Retail Subscription that switched to a F2P w/subscription option. Everything is C-Store, now called something else. There is verry limited new content thats free. ( its the Season Episodes ) and an episode happenes A couple times a year, an episode is maby 3 quests, with 4 episodes total.

Store aditions are couple times a month.

They are wanting to make money, Free doesnt make Money, RMT Store does, or else they wouldnt have switched to it.

Of course it's about making money. If they didn't make money making games, they wouldn't continue making games. It's just an alternative model to make the best ROI.

Subscription gives you free RTM currency for a reason, yes subscription will have all access to all new content, but New content will be RMT and you can access for free if you save your RMT stipend or buy more.

RMT not a seperate form of content, and they never said the content would be free

They also said Subscribers would have access to 100% of content, they never said How, and if that was true the monthly Stipend of Free Cartel Points would not exist

This is pure hyperbole. There is no evidence to support any of this.

You may call the following fanboyism, rose-tinted glasses or just pie-in-the-sky, but these are my thoughts regarding the stipend that subscribers will be getting:

1) Purchasing the collector's edition was supposed to enable the purchase of unique items and customizations via an in-game vendor and in-game credits. Beyond the few items they launched with, nothing has been added to this vendor. I believe that the bonus of 1000 coins for CE purchasers is purely for the purpose of getting some of the customization and convenience stuff that will be added in an effort to make up for this.

2) Subscribers receiving a bonus amount of coins is a thank-you for subscribing and supporting the game early in its life.

3) The stipend is a bonus to customers for the guaranteed income their subscriptions provide Bioware.

I strongly believe that not even EA is stupid enough to lock their subscribers out of content, even if they have provided the means to unlock that content via coins for free to the subscribers. And again I'll say that nothing so far has indicated that content (to me meaning operations, flashpoints, warzones and quests, not items or customization) will be purchased via the new currency/shop.

[Hell-In-A-Handbasket]

This is not STO and there is no connection between STO and SWTOR other than the fact they are both sci-fi themed MMOs based on popular existing IP.

the connection is Both games were Retail Subscription telling their customers they would not go free to play, less then 1 year later they did/will all of a sudden with no notification of their intention other then the reveal announcement

Of course it's about making money. If they didn't make money making games, they wouldn't continue making games. It's just an alternative model to make the best ROI.

This is pure hyperbole. There is no evidence to support any of this.

You may call the following fanboyism, rose-tinted glasses or just pie-in-the-sky, but these are my thoughts regarding the stipend that subscribers will be getting:

1) Purchasing the collector's edition was supposed to enable the purchase of unique items and customizations via an in-game vendor and in-game credits. Beyond the few items they launched with, nothing has been added to this vendor. I believe that the bonus of 1000 coins for CE purchasers is purely for the purpose of getting some of the customization and convenience stuff that will be added in an effort to make up for this.

2) Subscribers receiving a bonus amount of coins is a thank-you for subscribing and supporting the game early in its life.

3) The stipend is a bonus to customers for the guaranteed income their subscriptions provide Bioware.

I strongly believe that not even EA is stupid enough to lock their subscribers out of content, even if they have provided the means to unlock that content via coins for free to the subscribers. And again I'll say that nothing so far has indicated that content (to me meaning operations, flashpoints, warzones and quests, not items or customization) will be purchased via the new currency/shop.

Collectors edition did not Offer anything new, or updates to the CC/VIP Store, the Editions were sold and bought as is.

As far as the EA wont do this comment.

They already have with Warhammer Online, also run by Bioware

http://store.origin.com/store/ea/en_US/pd/productID.221617200

Start with the Progression Pack, which gives your character 20 additional ranks above the normal maximum of 80. Gain extra advantages with two new Split sets of Armor and extra Renown gear as you advance to Rank 100

That sale provides extra renown above max, new gear, and other ingame advantages. And i just did a generic search for their cash shop and found that.

So ok, comparing it to STO that has so far done the exact same thing years ago cant be used as an example, then ill use a game the exact same companies run.

A majority of the content will be Cartel Shop with the content even costing for Subs, you can quote me on that, and im pretty shure that NewhK Companion, will be an empty shell with almost 0 stats, and the player will have to Cartel Shop for stats like the current Ship Droid

Just like i said back in January it would go F2P around November,,,,m oh hey guess what happened and when its comming * ok might not have been january, it was when they revealed the Legacy Store on PTR ( edit2 aparently that was early april, could have sworn i saw it earlier then april )

[Emn1ty]

This is not STO and there is no connection between STO and SWTOR other than the fact they are both sci-fi themed MMOs based on popular existing IP.

They are both standard-mechanic MMO's set in a pre-existing IP that focus on storytelling and primarily PvE content. Yes, they are very similar. Even STO's main episodes/quests have voice acting.

[HawkMan]

STO had a story, Through my time in that game, I never saw anything that felt like a story.

[Emn1ty]

STO had a story, Through my time in that game, I never saw anything that felt like a story.

Then you haven't watched much Star Trek. One of my favorite mission sets were the Diplomatic ones, where you literally had to be a detective and figure things out to prevent wars. I literally had my head spinning around some stuff and was actually afraid to make certain choices becuase it would effect the overall outcome of the situation. The game had great storytelling even if there wasn't necessarily an over-arching story (which fits right in with their inspiration, TNG).

But an MMO shouldn't be about experiencing a pre-set storyline. I can do that in my single player games. MMO's should be about experiencing the world and the community and writing your own story. It should be a true sandbox, not the illusion of. Playing SWTOR was like playing a combination of Mass Effect and WoW, and neither of those things truly satisfy what an MMO should be.

[metal_dragen Veteran]

the connection is Both games were Retail Subscription telling their customers they would not go free to play, less then 1 year later they did/will all of a sudden with no notification of their intention other then the reveal announcement

BioWare never officially stated they wouldn't go F2P. Execs mentioned it in passing that it had been discussed, but there were no outright denials that I ever saw. At most, I saw reiterations of the subscription model, which is a deflection at best.

Collectors edition did not Offer anything new, or updates to the CC/VIP Store, the Editions were sold and bought as is.

That's what ended up happening - the plan from the start was that those vendors would receive new content.

As far as the EA wont do this comment.

They already have with Warhammer Online, also run by Bioware

http://store.origin....uctID.221617200

Start with the Progression Pack, which gives your character 20 additional ranks above the normal maximum of 80. Gain extra advantages with two new Split sets of Armor and extra Renown gear as you advance to Rank 100

That sale provides extra renown above max, new gear, and other ingame advantages. And i just did a generic search for their cash shop and found that.

I'm not familiar with WAR - never played it. But, it was developed by Mythic, not Bioware. EA bought and folded Mythic into a combined Bioware/Mythic division that became the MMO/RPG arm of EA under the Bioware name.

As for what I can gather, the game is not "F2P" in the traditional sense. They have an essentially endless trial, but it's not the full game (restricted to Tier 1, whatever that means, and restrictions on use of in-game facilities like mail and AH). Additionally, those free accounts don't have access to most of the purchasable addons for the game.

I'll give you that one however, as that clearly seems to be pay-to-win, but it's hard to find out what effect it actually has in-game without playing. Plus, I can't really tell if that's supposed to be a content pack, as there is some mention in their news items of those same features being introduced with The Verminous Horde patch.

A majority of the content will be Cartel Shop with the content even costing for Subs, you can quote me on that, and im pretty shure that NewhK Companion, will be an empty shell with almost 0 stats, and the player will have to Cartel Shop for stats like the current Ship Droid

Just like i said back in January it would go F2P around November,,,,m oh hey guess what happened and when its comming * ok might not have been january, it was when they revealed the Legacy Store on PTR ( edit2 aparently that was early april, could have sworn i saw it earlier then april )

I doubt the HK droid will be naked, but even if he is, Cybertech crafters in the game can already craft droid parts and end-game mods for those parts are already available in the existing economy, so while they may indeed add some parts for him to the cartel shop, you won't have to use it.

As for Legacy, that's something they've always said they wanted in the game from launch. Saying that is a harbinger of a F2P cash shop is a bit incredulous to say the least.

They are both standard-mechanic MMO's set in a pre-existing IP that focus on storytelling and primarily PvE content. Yes, they are very similar. Even STO's main episodes/quests have voice acting.

Which is exactly what I said. Minus the storytelling (to an extent) and voice acting, you could say WoW is very similar as well other than the setting. My point wasn't that they aren't similar types of games, but that they have nothing in common from the business side, which is what Hell-in-a-Handbasket was implying - that just because STO did it, SWTOR would also.

[HawkMan]

Then you haven't watched much Star Trek. One of my favorite mission sets were the Diplomatic ones, where you literally had to be a detective and figure things out to prevent wars. I literally had my head spinning around some stuff and was actually afraid to make certain choices becuase it would effect the overall outcome of the situation. The game had great storytelling even if there wasn't necessarily an over-arching story (which fits right in with their inspiration, TNG).

But an MMO shouldn't be about experiencing a pre-set storyline. I can do that in my single player games. MMO's should be about experiencing the world and the community and writing your own story. It should be a true sandbox, not the illusion of. Playing SWTOR was like playing a combination of Mass Effect and WoW, and neither of those things truly satisfy what an MMO should be.

According to you an MMO shouldn't be about a pre set storyline. Yet all the big ones are. even WoW.The only rue sandbox games where SWG and Vanguard (which in many ways felt like the next stage of SWG. imrpving on the freedom in SWG and making it more sensible. like not allowing houses everywhere, and player cities with castles).

Sandboxes have unfortunately without fail, failed.

Either way what you're describing is not "stories" it's quests, but these quests had no story. they where "different" to some degree, but they had no story. and to be honest, Star Trek was never, no matter what version you go for, a very good source of " stories. every episode was the same script with a new name and a new planet.

At least SWTOR actually had a good stoies. 8 of them in fact.

But if you ant a game with excellent stand alone stores with excellent and complex quests combined. then look at TSW and it's investigation missions.

Anyway I find it funny how you keep trolling in the SWTOR thread, when you admittedly don't think it is the MMO for you since you don't think an MMO should have a story. I don't think you'll find many MMO's fitting your criteria anymore though. the last sandbox died with Vanguard.

[Emn1ty]

According to you an MMO shouldn't be about a pre set storyline. Yet all the big ones are. even WoW.The only rue sandbox games where SWG and Vanguard (which in many ways felt like the next stage of SWG. imrpving on the freedom in SWG and making it more sensible. like not allowing houses everywhere, and player cities with castles).

Sandboxes have unfortunately without fail, failed.

Either way what you're describing is not "stories" it's quests, but these quests had no story. they where "different" to some degree, but they had no story. and to be honest, Star Trek was never, no matter what version you go for, a very good source of " stories. every episode was the same script with a new name and a new planet.

At least SWTOR actually had a good stoies. 8 of them in fact.

But if you ant a game with excellent stand alone stores with excellent and complex quests combined. then look at TSW and it's investigation missions.

Anyway I find it funny how you keep trolling in the SWTOR thread, when you admittedly don't think it is the MMO for you since you don't think an MMO should have a story. I don't think you'll find many MMO's fitting your criteria anymore though. the last sandbox died with Vanguard.

EVE, Novus Aeterno, GW2. These games provide what I described, even if to a limited degree. WoW, STO ad SWTOR as well as many other previous MMO's didn't even make an attempt to give players the ability to generate a functioning world of their own. The game is very hard-locked into a particular position. I admit that true sandbox games aren't the most popular, but that is because the burden of knowledge is so significant in those games. The easiest way to pin a game that isn't open to a player-driven world is factions. Hard locking you into conceptions of good/evil and forcing you to play that out through quests irritates the hell out of me. Also, it buggs me that SWTOR has no avenue to play the manipulator/puppeteer. I think its funny I got light side points for releasing a guy willingly because I knew that I could rat him out later on or use him to get inside the Jedi temple. But because the game only looks into things one decision at a time it gave me a ton of good karma.

As "brilliant" as the stories are in the game, they are easily broken if you don't play according to the stereotypes it has established, which makes the game uninteresting. And the worst part is that nothing you do in SWTOR will ever mean anything in regards to the world. You and 50,000 other people have all worked through the same storyline with marginally the same decisions and you can easily go back through and make those decisions again and the world will still remain intact until the devs decide to move the story/world along. WoW has this model dominated, and it is no wonder that every MMO since with this model has pretty much failed aside from Rift.

You talk about MMO's with open worlds failing, but that isn't the defining factor. Almost every MMO has fallen to f2p in the last 10 years. Only a handful haven't (EVE being one of them). There are plenty of games trying to push the players to create a community and even political/economic systems in the games themselves. EVE started this, and now games like GW2 with its WvW and Tera with its political system are starting to catch on to the way this kind of content is player made replayability. The moment the community can sustain itself in a world and create its own events and reasons to play is when the game truly shines. But in order for any of that to matter I feel the world should be one that is persistent. One that changes with events in the game. Otherwise it is as I said before, a theme park.

Also, I never said MMO's should lack story. What I said is they should not be focused on that story. What else is there in SWTOR other than the storylines? If I recall even in this thread the main driving force of players to keep playing was the multiple storylines. How does that make SWTOR an MMO and not a single player game where you and a bunch of other people happen to be running around next to each other? The only thing Rift provided that made the MMO portion matter was World Events, and Warhammer came up with that and even then those events never altered the world. They repeated over and over again. Too many MMO's have regurgitated content that replays itself like a broken record.

[Hell-In-A-Handbasket]

BioWare never officially stated they wouldn't go F2P. Execs mentioned it in passing that it had been discussed, but there were no outright denials that I ever saw. At most, I saw reiterations of the subscription model, which is a deflection at best.

found this on IGN, http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/bioware-mmo-project/1225612p1.html there are links in that article to the origional sources, but outright denials no, just stuff like saying " not in forceable future " , which was back in december, and that major of a change it takes alot longer then december - now to hammer out the details and backend.

That's what ended up happening - the plan from the start was that those vendors would receive new content.

I dont remember bioware stating this, i remember the Playerbase assuming and saying this, but never an official word from Bioware/EA

I doubt the HK droid will be naked, but even if he is, Cybertech crafters in the game can already craft droid parts and end-game mods for those parts are already available in the existing economy, so while they may indeed add some parts for him to the cartel shop, you won't have to use it.

And hiw exactially does Bioware/EA make money from that ? If they were getting enough from subscriptions for it to be free, they wouldnt be doing the cash shop.

IF it is craftable, expect it to require Crafting Mats from the Cartel Store, other wise it will be straight CC.

Literally i have absolutly no idea how you and others have it in your brain that EA/Bioware is going to give all this free stuff when the game cant even support itself under subscription only. They are going to microtransaction just about everything, subscriptions have failed, they do not care about subscriptions anymore.

They have did 2 rounds of layoffs

They are using an engine Prized in its speed in creating and adding content yet takes them months to add a map, just that info alone tells me they barely have a team anymore on it.

They have stated in quartly reports that SWTOR isnt even in its Top 10 as far as importance, they put Sims and madden above SWTOR,

And those games are basically the exact same thing year to year, except sims with comes out with new stuff every month or 2

[HawkMan]

Actually vanguard stated with politics.

Eve's politics was outside of the game then. GW2 I don't think is gonna be as big s the fans claim. And even the devs admit that it's a game that will be played, then heavily abandoned till the next paid expansion. And Tera... Seriously, thatagmes barely released and on life support. Copy AoC but without the excellent lore and backstory, so now we slap on random new game elements .

Actually, I beleve SWG started politics, thou it was very simple and much of it was outside the game.

So the only the,e park game that'ssurvived is Eve, and I don't see that being becau of the the,e park, but rather beause people get to fly ginormous space ships and by the time they do that, they have so much time and money invested.

And what makes a game an MMO, well maybe the thousands of other playrs you share the world with, communicate with, group with, play with, raid with, fight against.

[metal_dragen Veteran]

found this on IGN, http://pc.gamespy.co.../1225612p1.html there are links in that article to the origional sources, but outright denials no, just stuff like saying " not in forceable future " , which was back in december, and that major of a change it takes alot longer then december - now to hammer out the details and backend.

For some reason, part of your reply was cut-off in the post, but shows up in quote. Again, as I said, deflections at best.

I dont remember bioware stating this, i remember the Playerbase assuming and saying this, but never an official word from Bioware/EA

The Buy Now page on swtor.com which is still live today. Click the ? next to the Exclusive Collector's Edition Store and the popup window says "Unique in-game vendor with a dynamic assortment of items available only to purchasers of the Collector's Edition." Let's review the definition of the bolded word above: vigorously energetic, associated with motion, as opposed to static meaning refresh is necessary.

And hiw exactially does Bioware/EA make money from that ? If they were getting enough from subscriptions for it to be free, they wouldnt be doing the cash shop.

IF it is craftable, expect it to require Crafting Mats from the Cartel Store, other wise it will be straight CC.

This is EA/Bioware we're talking about, not Bob's Games. While some games may be able to sustain themselves with subscriber numbers under 100K, EA stated previously that the break even point for SWTOR was 500K subs. They're under a million subs and continuing to lose more each month.

They see the trend and they're trying a hybrid model to bring more players who will either a) wind up subscribing, or b) spend money in the cash shop as opposed to subscribing or perhaps even c) both.

I understand why you believe that subs will get screwed, based on the information you have posted here and your own past experience (I assume), but once again, taking a doom-and-gloom end-of-the-world attitude about the whole situation before all the information is out, let alone before it's even implemented is a bit unnecessary.

Literally i have absolutly no idea how you and others have it in your brain that EA/Bioware is going to give all this free stuff when the game cant even support itself under subscription only. They are going to microtransaction just about everything, subscriptions have failed, they do not care about subscriptions anymore.

They have did 2 rounds of layoffs

They are using an engine Prized in its speed in creating and adding content yet takes them months to add a map, just that info alone tells me they barely have a team anymore on it.

They have stated in quartly reports that SWTOR isnt even in its Top 10 as far as importance, they put Sims and madden above SWTOR,

And those games are basically the exact same thing year to year, except sims with comes out with new stuff every month or 2

As I stated before, the break even point was announced to be at 500K, they're still above that, but trending down toward it. They're still profitable today.

None of the things I countered with are free (in reference to the HK droid). You have to craft those parts, and some of them take crafting materials only available from flashpoints. The high-end mods have to be reverse-engineered successfully (!) from an end-game drop out of a hard mode operation (tier 2 at that for Best in Slot) which are rare to begin with. And then actually crafting the mod requires crafting materials that only drop from the tier 2 operation. These mods sell for 300K plus credits.

I don't doubt that they'll put some of these things (perhaps not the mods themselves) on the cartel shop, but there are ways to obtain them in-game.

As for layoffs, when the first set happened, it was announced somewhere that the layoffs that were announced would be staggered. The second "round" as you call it was merely the conclusion of the already announced layoffs.

I'm not familiar enough with the Hero engine to make any intelligent comments so I'll leave that alone.

Of course Madden is going to be above - it's a guaranteed money maker. It's also the ultimate microtransaction - $60 for a reskin of last year's game and people eat it up. Same with The Sims - it's sold far more copies than Star Wars, but it also has an existing loyal fanbase who will buy their expansions sight unseen.

[SMELTN]

It has been said that you will have to pay for anything after level 50 now. SO its so wishy washy on whats what at this point its hard to say

[trag3dy]

Actually vanguard stated with politics.

Eve's politics was outside of the game then. GW2 I don't think is gonna be as big s the fans claim. And even the devs admit that it's a game that will be played, then heavily abandoned till the next paid expansion. And Tera... Seriously, thatagmes barely released and on life support. Copy AoC but without the excellent lore and backstory, so now we slap on random new game elements .

Actually, I beleve SWG started politics, thou it was very simple and much of it was outside the game.

So the only the,e park game that'ssurvived is Eve, and I don't see that being becau of the the,e park, but rather beause people get to fly ginormous space ships and by the time they do that, they have so much time and money invested.

And what makes a game an MMO, well maybe the thousands of other playrs you share the world with, communicate with, group with, play with, raid with, fight against.

I think you're just outright making things up because I'm fairly certain the devs of GW2 have never said any thing like that.

Are you aware that with variations at launch GW2 with have around 32 different dungeon experiences that are all challenging at max level? That's more dungeons than pretty much any other mmo ever made has had at launch. Not to mention wvwvw pvp which will keep a lot of people happy for a very long time.

And then there is the simple fact that it has a real money store. So they want people playing and spending for as long as possible.

[Twiddle]

I think you're just outright making things up because I'm fairly certain the devs of GW2 have never said any thing like that.

Are you aware that with variations at launch GW2 with have around 32 different dungeon experiences that are all challenging at max level? That's more dungeons than pretty much any other mmo ever made has had at launch. Not to mention wvwvw pvp which will keep a lot of people happy for a very long time.

And then there is the simple fact that it has a real money store. So they want people playing and spending for as long as possible.

Not defending his comment at all, cause it is missing wording. But I did see the video where the referenced it going from expansion to expansion. But they never said abandoned, they said something along the lines of "A full MMO, that people can come and go as they please, since there is no subscription. So, you don't have to feel pressured to play and get your money's worth from expansion to expansion" Mainly highlighting that you get a great game, with no subscription that you can play at your own pace.

Either way, Hawkman took what the devs said completely out of context, or heard one thing, and thought it meant something else, though it was clear what the devs were saying.

[trag3dy]

Not defending his comment at all, cause it is missing wording. But I did see the video where the referenced it going from expansion to expansion. But they never said abandoned, they said something along the lines of "A full MMO, that people can come and go as they please, since there is no subscription. So, you don't have to feel pressured to play and get your money's worth from expansion to expansion" Mainly highlighting that you get a great game, with no subscription that you can play at your own pace.

Either way, Hawkman took what the devs said completely out of context, or heard one thing, and thought it meant something else, though it was clear what the devs were saying.

Yeah, there seems to be a lot of that going around.

[menj]

Well it is good that they are introducing the Free-to-Play model because previously, I was holding off from getting the game due to the monthly fees. Now I can seriously consider playing the game :)

[tiagosilva29]

tl;dr --- everything remains the same for subscribers, f2players get gimped experience.

[Emn1ty]

Eve's politics was outside of the game then. GW2 I don't think is gonna be as big s the fans claim. And even the devs admit that it's a game that will be played, then heavily abandoned till the next paid expansion. And Tera... Seriously, thatagmes barely released and on life support. Copy AoC but without the excellent lore and backstory, so now we slap on random new game elements .

The point is these games are moving towards something that rewards interaction with the community. STO and SWTOR from what I've played (and I've hit end-game in STO) consisted of many things you could do alone. There was little incentive to work together outside raids, and SWTOR was very similar to that. Although admittedly there was a particular quest I could not complete alone, but the game did not tell me that. I spent the better part of 2 hours trying to clear a mission that was apparently meant for 3-4 people and the only way I figured it out is I happened to remember that people were LFG'ing it back at the main town.

So the only the,e park game that'ssurvived is Eve, and I don't see that being becau of the the,e park, but rather beause people get to fly ginormous space ships and by the time they do that, they have so much time and money invested.

Not really, because you can get to Battleships in under 3 months. That's not "so much time and money". As long as you know where you're going the game isn't as long-winded as people think. The corporations and politics of the world are very engaging and null sec is very fun. The idea of there being a place where you can fight for the right to call it your own is awesome, and no other MMO really has that. The best part is that the players have literally written the history of the game.

And what makes a game an MMO, well maybe the thousands of other playrs you share the world with, communicate with, group with, play with, raid with, fight against.

I don't feel an MMO should be defined by the fact there are other players around, but that the game allows those players to interact. When an MMO can be played from start to finish without any interaction with other players (which I have been prone to doing in many MMO's lately) then I don't feel it is an MMO. Your definition is, technically an MMO. But i was hoping that after 15 or so years of MMO's being around they'd evolve past the standard level-up, kill x number of y and end game raid-raid-raid. It doesn't seem like anyone is even attempting to evolve the genre beyond a couple of new mechanics for interacting with the same content.