Adobe enables HTTP streaming for iOS

[DocM]

It was only a matter of time....

Ars Technica....

Adobe throws in towel, adopts HTTP Live Streaming for iOS

Adobe previewed some new streaming video capabilities of its Flash Media Server at the 2011 National Association of Broadcasters (NAB) trade show, including new compatibility with iOS devices like the iPad. Instead of getting Steve Jobs to relent on his "thoughts on Flash," however, Adobe is instead adding HTTP Live Streaming support to Flash Media Server.

>

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

Nice to see them support it, now lets see an implementation in Flash.

[Boz]

LOL at Adobe throwing in the towel...

Adobe never had problems with Apple.. it was the other way around.. streaming to iOS was always on the table.. Adobe supported iOS from the start and wanted all creatives, developers working with Flash, video, interactive stuff to also expand to Apple's devices.

It's only that douche Steve Jobs and their politics in order to push app that caused this whole rucass.. Adobe always stayed class throughout the whole thing..

And btw, even today..when HTML5 tools are really non-existant and multi-screen authoring tools are nowhere to be found.. Adobe again leads the pack by introducing some freakin' fantastic features for CSS Media Queries, live Webkit preview directly in Dreamweaver, tools for converting Flash to HTML5 and so many other things..

So it's so funny when these Apple fanboys and bloggers make it seem as Adobe throwing in a towel.. If anything Apple threw in a towel and got their ass handed to them by government for anti-competitive practices inquiry and forced them to enable apps to the store that were compiled by interpreters. And it's only a matter of time when they'll enable Flash too.. They are just bunch of dillholes.

And btw.. I hate people who write stuff they don't really have much clue about..like that idiot who wrote the article.. this is only an outlet to iOS so all of us who build stuff in Flash amonth other things can publish stream to the fragmented iOS as being the ONLY mobile OS not supporting Flash.. Adobe is working here to help me as a producer and developer.. not Apple..and on iOS platform it will still be inferior solution because it's dumbed down completely. Flash player can still do so many things more.. this is just support for Flash Media Server.. but try using a camera through a browser to stream or better yet.. try to make stuff like chat-roulette functionality with mutliple camera live feeds, peer to peer live video streaming and all from a browser, without Flash and you'll quickly realize why remarks like that are beyond stupid.

Btw, this solution already exists with Wowza server.. but FMS implementation is superb.. now our Flash content and apps with live streaming capabilities and clients can reach that shrinking iOS market-share as well..

[Lunfai]

HTML 5 tools are non existent? I find that any current web editor/notepad/textedit can be used to write HTML 5 pages already, maybe not as a well as a newer tool which supports HTML 5 but that doesn't stop me from developing pages right now. And the reason it's not fully adopted is because it's still under revision and most browsers may have started adopting but no browser has full support of HTML 5 since it hasn't even been finalised, and won't be for awhile, 2012?

There are so many examples out there already, to help you build a web page written in HTML 5 already, but it's just not ready (Android support for example is basically non existent). But it's good to see tools already supporting newer technologies and without dreamweaver I've never would've took web designing, which is one of my constant hobbies ever since, but I don't see it anymore sadly.

Steve jobs didn't want flash because of the security loopholes that MAY be exploitable. Maybe I'd enjoy flash on an iPad but I really don't see the need of flash on iphone, theres a few videos there and here, but other than that flash ad banners is something I don't particularly want to see :p

I do own mostly apple products, but I don't consider myself a fan boy. I just love there final touches on both software and hardware design. The post above me shows that how Flash can support more complexed solutions (live webcam etc) and it's true, I don't think Apple wants to get rid of flash since that's IMPOSSIBLE now but I think they'd rather move on from it, but what's developed has developed in my book, especially since it's adopted on mostly every single computer connected to the Internet.

It's pretty stupid how theyve made this mini war, but I'm rather for Adobe then Apple in this case since I've heavily admired Adobes products (Macromedia products back before they merged).

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

This has nothing to do with HTML5 or CSS3, this is an underlying technology for streaming videos.

[former1]

^+1 rep to Boz!

[Boz]

Steve jobs didn't want flash because of the security loopholes that MAY be exploitable.

LOL you are very naive.. it was never about that.. HTML5/JS/CSS runs like CRAP on mobile.. it's far more demanding then Flash is because it's all CPU cycles.. canvas tag is still not hardware accelerated anywhere but IE9 and iOS only had at the very beginning a few CSS transforms that were hardware accelerated but you could only use 1 at a time and the performance was not great and it was buggy as hell.. I'm talking about webkit-transforms.. I know.. I was one of teh first who built CSS powered 3d interface for an iPhone web app that utilized all that stuff for the movie Fast and Furious among some other things.. Ironically Adobe themselves have a case study about this campaign and what I did on their site (granted I'm not mentioned by name because I did for a friend's interactive agency that handled the account).

No no.. the reason why Steve Jobs didn't want Flash on his devices is because he can't control how you will get your apps.. it's simple as that.. everything else is garbage.. he wanted to make money off of everyone.. and the app store model simply couldn't survive if you allowed people to build apps and games through Flash.. then he makes no money.. so he did what he does best, being the scumbag he is.. he riled up the brainwashed masses of Apple fanboys and started talking up HTML5 knowing that HTML5 was a mess and that it will take quite a bit of time for it to reach any level of serious application development for mobile devices.. both from performance side as well as official ratification and finalizing the draft by W3C.. they still can't agree on codec for christ sake.. not to mention that it's a huge question if WebGL and 3d implementation of canvas will happen in the future as it is not even planned yet... Flash doesn't have that problem.. it supports all codecs and everything.. and even if it's not ideally optimized, if he allowed flash from start, Adobe would have optimized it within months to run apps directly in Safari as they did with Android and you could build apps and stuff like Zynga would work and so on..and Steve Jobs wouldn't make diddly.

Wake up and stop being naive.

[Lunfai]

I'm not naive, Ive stated that I'm for adobe rather than against.

Well in that case Steve Jobs did the right thing as now the app store generates huge revenue even if it did hurt his reputation. (I'm not admiring him but looking at this at a business point of view, you would've done the same thing, more money, the more power)

[Boz]

I'm not naive, Ive stated that I'm for adobe rather than against.

Well in that case Steve Jobs did the right thing as now the app store generates huge revenue even if it did hurt his reputation. (I'm not admiring him but looking at this at a business point of view, you would've done the same thing, more money, the more power)

Well that's definitely true.. he made sure you have to buy an app and use his distribution as opposed to getting it freely from the web..especially when the model of "sell once for .99" doesn't work THAT well for individual developers as they would out in the open where we are living in the world of online games, subscriptions, in-game virtual goods etc etc.. all of with are very easy to build and embed into Flash app/game without dependence on anyone.

It's not a good thign for developers because not only that now they have to give 30% of their profits to them, but there is no single app developer on app store that will ever be able to match the success of Zynga for example.. if you are not familiar Zynga is the company that makes all those Flash games that have made them create revenue in 100s of millions of dollars..

So, as always, stuff they did is good for Jobs and Apple, bad for everyone else.. people just don't see it out of all the smoke and PR bull that comes from Apple's media powerhouse, fanboy bloggers who propagate flash hate and so on and on.. THis article is no different.. just look at the title.. Adobe throws in a towel.. jesus...

If you have noticed.. really.. no other company has issues with Flash and it's simply because Flash being as ubiqutous as it is, there will be always security issues but Adobe patches them super quickly.. they probably do it fastest I have ever seen patch released (their longest no path time was about a week or at most 2weeks).. Compare that to Apple's critical flaws in OSX and iOS and other crap and then some that are there for YEARs and never fixed you see that's another BS thing when it comes to security.. so with Flash Android phones implement it, RIM does, Firefox has automatic update system, Chrome has it embedded.. I mean it's obviously not an issue as Steve Jobs made it out to be..

Don't get me wrong btw.. I might have sounded harsh.. I just noted you might be naive the reason for why Steve Jobs prevented Flash on IOS platform.. what he says is really for the most part a lie and just garbage to hide his real motivation.. but you know.. real motivation doesn't make him look like a Jesus and more like a super greedy control freak he really is.

[Lunfai]

Titles are 80% misleading to attention, one of the dark sides of media :( I'm sure they've done this on purpose to anger certain individuals.

Zynga has released Farmville, Poker and some other games on the app store, it's free as well. I'm not sure if apple gets a slice of the inapp revenue but I know it's available, even if it's a limitation of having no flash, Zynga can't miss out a good opunity of making some pretty hefty money off the app store users, so they've developed a app. (I love poker on Facebook)

Yeah he's a pretty controlling CEO, he's the one that invented the secrecy of Apples projects/products since it creates a better view of media control once the product is released, he's VERY clever and can brain wash people with his words. To why hes controlling I bet it's more about his past then present, he probably wants everyone in Apple to know that he's the boss, after they kicked him out all those years ago when he had a slight hiccup with a unwell received product (I forgot which one, but after the failure to meet a good amount of sales, he wasn't hired for the next project, and got benched?, I don't remember)

[DeadEndAccount]

LOL at Adobe throwing in the towel...

Adobe never had problems with Apple.. it was the other way around.. streaming to iOS was always on the table.. Adobe supported iOS from the start and wanted all creatives, developers working with Flash, video, interactive stuff to also expand to Apple's devices.

It's only that douche Steve Jobs and their politics in order to push app that caused this whole rucass.. Adobe always stayed class throughout the whole thing..

Yes, because industry standards like Javascript/ECMAscript/HTML5 and h.264 a horrible when compared to Flash *rolls eyes*

I don't know what horrifies me more, the fact that you posted such nonsense without later regret or someone actually goes out of their way to vote up your post.

[Boz]

Zynga has released Farmville, Poker and some other games on the app store, it's free as well. I'm not sure if apple gets a slice of the inapp revenue but I know it's available, even if it's a limitation of having no flash, Zynga can't miss out a good opunity of making some pretty hefty money off the app store users, so they've developed a app. (I love poker on Facebook)

I'm sure they are on app store.. but not the point I was trying to make overall.. I just wanted to note that a developer going through app store will NEVER EVER reach the size and amount of money that Zynga pulled in when they were completely free and used Flash to deliver that experience.. I guess that was my point..

I mean it's simply not possible with all the profit sharing the lack of control you have to evolve your business, the limitations of how you can do in-app purchasing and what you can and can't do and you have to share that again with Apple and so on.. this type of model Apple is pursing is a very unhealthy one in the long run..

Sure, it will allow some lucky smaller developer to make a few million..because he made a cool app that was top download for a few months and it's certainly not going to happen that often as that app store is already oversaturated, but that's peanuts towards the overall picture of open web, and not having someone else make decisions on what you can and can't do.

That's all I'm saying but I think we've drifted way too far away fromt he topic..

[Vice]

LOL at Adobe throwing in the towel...

Adobe never had problems with Apple.. it was the other way around.. streaming to iOS was always on the table.. Adobe supported iOS from the start and wanted all creatives, developers working with Flash, video, interactive stuff to also expand to Apple's devices.

It's only that douche Steve Jobs and their politics in order to push app that caused this whole rucass.. Adobe always stayed class throughout the whole thing..

And btw, even today..when HTML5 tools are really non-existant and multi-screen authoring tools are nowhere to be found.. Adobe again leads the pack by introducing some freakin' fantastic features for CSS Media Queries, live Webkit preview directly in Dreamweaver, tools for converting Flash to HTML5 and so many other things..

So it's so funny when these Apple fanboys and bloggers make it seem as Adobe throwing in a towel.. If anything Apple threw in a towel and got their ass handed to them by government for anti-competitive practices inquiry and forced them to enable apps to the store that were compiled by interpreters. And it's only a matter of time when they'll enable Flash too.. They are just bunch of dillholes.

And btw.. I hate people who write stuff they don't really have much clue about..like that idiot who wrote the article.. this is only an outlet to iOS so all of us who build stuff in Flash amonth other things can publish stream to the fragmented iOS as being the ONLY mobile OS not supporting Flash.. Adobe is working here to help me as a producer and developer.. not Apple..and on iOS platform it will still be inferior solution because it's dumbed down completely. Flash player can still do so many things more.. this is just support for Flash Media Server.. but try using a camera through a browser to stream or better yet.. try to make stuff like chat-roulette functionality with mutliple camera live feeds, peer to peer live video streaming and all from a browser, without Flash and you'll quickly realize why remarks like that are beyond stupid.

Btw, this solution already exists with Wowza server.. but FMS implementation is superb.. now our Flash content and apps with live streaming capabilities and clients can reach that shrinking iOS market-share as well..

What consumers want is Adobe to release its flash grip on internet video. We don't care about the other uses of Flash. And once this is in place and popular sites use it I'll be uninstalling Flash for good on my computers.

[Boz]

What consumers want is Adobe to release its flash grip on internet video. We don't care about the other uses of Flash. And once this is in place and popular sites use it I'll be uninstalling Flash for good on my computers.

Adobe is not forcing anyone to use Flash for video.. it's the capabilities of Flash player is that it's making people choose it and do HTML5 video as a fallback..

HTML5 has no DRM support, has no live streaming support with access to hardware like mic/video, you can't do any interactivity on the actual VIDEO and interact with it, you have very limited, if at all, dynamic bit-rate selection depending on the connection speed and device type.. on top of that.. it's a mess with video codecs..

So no.. Adobe is not holding a grip on anyone.. just like professional use Photoshop because it's the absolute best tool on the market, Flash is the best video solution on the market..

It's like you saying.. you know what "I would like BMW to lose their grip on BMW customers because they choose and buy BMW themselves since it has the latest GPS and hi-end leather and iDrive, so I can buy a Kia and you won't see me drive a BMW ever again"..

Video is not your mom posting a video on a page nad that's it.. video use today on the web are much much more complex, businesses have evolved around it, DRM that allows you to enjoy stuff for free and without buying apps..Videos need additional layers on top of it with interactivity. YouTube wouldn't exist without Flash and HTML5 STILL can't replace their primary players.. it doesn't for many of these sites and it never will because they can't push advertising and monetize content without it. The only reason you are getting HTML5 video on YouTube is because they are making and generating a lot of money from Flash so they are trying to give the haters a bone.

Flash is simply the best there is.. and is waaay far ahead of HTML5 video.. there's simply no comparions..

That's not to say that people shouldn't use HTML5video.. sure, if you just need to post a video here and there, your own video, or just simply a video that doesnt' require interaction, DRM or anything of sort (aka Trailers), HTML5 video tag is great.. super simple..

But to say.. hey we need to replace Flash video to use inferior HTML5 video tag that's not even properly agreed upon and what codecs and how everything is going to work, is really a joke and comes from an extremely biased position and not of knowledge and reason.

[Boz]

and btw..here's on the reasons why HTML5 video will never replace Flash for a lot of things and has nothing to do with "Adobe's grip" on anything. Let me know if you need me to explain.

[Ryoken]

Jobs has a hardon against flash not because of security, it's because of one simple thing.. Flash Player for MacOS Sucks.. It's the biggest pos you can install on a Mac. It's scary slow compared to it's windows counterpart, and highly unstable.. Why would Jobs want to risk having that on his iOS ? People, in general, tend to blame the tool that crashes using flash, and not flash.. When FF dies because of Flash the "general" population curses at FF, likewise on MacOS, so if it starts happening on iOS it's gonna be a bunch of people that don't know better blaming Apple for someone elses shabby work..

If Adobe would bring FlashPlayer on MacOS up to the same level as it is on Windows, I think you'd see Apple be far more willing to back down..

[Boz]

If Adobe would bring FlashPlayer on MacOS up to the same level as it is on Windows, I think you'd see Apple be far more willing to back down..

They could if Apple allowed them access to specific low level APIs .. but they never did.. and in return OSX users got the crap.. it's not that Adobe didn't want to.. they couldn't because of hte nature of how Flash works.. on Windows that was not the issue..

Only recently like mid last year, Apple opened up their system API to allow ADobe to create a better Flash player.. and new Flash player runs 10 times better then ever has on Macs.. and it only gets better.. Flash Player 11 will be completely hardware accelerated on a lowest 3D level.

So as you see, again Apple and their closed up policies was the blame for awful performance on their platform alone and then they used the marketing and lies really to spread this disinformation to divert the hatred from users to Adobe and not deal with the actual reason behind the problems.

[ccuk]

Adobe is not forcing anyone to use Flash for video.. it's the capabilities of Flash player is that it's making people choose it and do HTML5 video as a fallback..

HTML5 has no DRM support, has no live streaming support with access to hardware like mic/video, you can't do any interactivity on the actual VIDEO and interact with it, you have very limited, if at all, dynamic bit-rate selection depending on the connection speed and device type.. on top of that.. it's a mess with video codecs..

So no.. Adobe is not holding a grip on anyone.. just like professional use Photoshop because it's the absolute best tool on the market, Flash is the best video solution on the market..

It's like you saying.. you know what "I would like BMW to lose their grip on BMW customers because they choose and buy BMW themselves since it has the latest GPS and hi-end leather and iDrive, so I can buy a Kia and you won't see me drive a BMW ever again"..

Video is not your mom posting a video on a page nad that's it.. video use today on the web are much much more complex, businesses have evolved around it, DRM that allows you to enjoy stuff for free and without buying apps..Videos need additional layers on top of it with interactivity. YouTube wouldn't exist without Flash and HTML5 STILL can't replace their primary players.. it doesn't for many of these sites and it never will because they can't push advertising and monetize content without it. The only reason you are getting HTML5 video on YouTube is because they are making and generating a lot of money from Flash so they are trying to give the haters a bone.

Flash is simply the best there is.. and is waaay far ahead of HTML5 video.. there's simply no comparions..

That's not to say that people shouldn't use HTML5video.. sure, if you just need to post a video here and there, your own video, or just simply a video that doesnt' require interaction, DRM or anything of sort (aka Trailers), HTML5 video tag is great.. super simple..

But to say.. hey we need to replace Flash video to use inferior HTML5 video tag that's not even properly agreed upon and what codecs and how everything is going to work, is really a joke and comes from an extremely biased position and not of knowledge and reason.

I personally can't think of any reason I want a flashed based application accessing my mic or webcam. The only thing I want accessing those devices are dedicated VOIP apps.

Flash is overkill for playing back video content unless you categorically need a form of DRM. Machines struggle to play back 1080p flash videos yet can play much higher bitrate locally without using a flash based video player. Speaks volumes to me about how bloated flash has become... Adobe using GPU acceleration to speed up flash videos hides poorly coded flash sites. If you sit down and really go to town developing the code in a flash app, you can make some fairly efficient interactive content, but unfortunately, the whole flash ecosystem makes it all to easy to throw out poor code quickly and as a result the bloat becomes more and more evident.

I am all for keeping useful technologies, but in this case, I feel flash needs to die out so time and money can be poured into moving on, to leaner cross platform alternatives that are free from proprietary tech reliant on one company. The internet is becoming more and more complex, and as such I feel we need to start standardizing and simplifying content creation, not adding complexity and wastefully utilising resources.

I have to say, that the whole interactive element is dying. I cannot remember the last time I used a flash site... In all honesty, there is probably a very good reason for that.

[Boz]

I am all for keeping useful technologies, but in this case, I feel flash needs to die out so time and money can be poured into moving on, to leaner cross platform alternatives that are free from proprietary tech reliant on one company.

LOL.. yeah..we saw how that worked 15 years ago.. I'm guessing you don't remember what web looked like before Flash.. it was disaster.. and there was no progress whatsoever..

It took them 15 years to even come to HTML5 and that thing is still not agreed upon completely.. That utopian dream is delusional.

No thanks.. I'd rather go to efficient Flash player with superb capabilities where i can do whatever I imagine without bullcrap of browser politics and individual companies agendas and just have one technology that WORKS..

That's Flash.. HTML5 still doesn't work right.. it's a dog crap slow on mobile, there's no real 3d support, webGL is a joke, video codecs are a mess on the video tag..

And that's all proof what you can expect if Flash ever dissappears.. you will have HTML5+ versions of the browser.. then you'll have Microsoft HTML5+ version of it.. then we'll have specific JS+ version for HTML5+ versions.. the CSS properties are already showing you what kind of a mess it is.. you have webkit css properties, then firefox ones, then IE ones etc..

IT's all a pipe dream and if anyone thinks that Flash sucks.. wait.. just give it some time .. you'll see what real mess is..

And btw, I don't have time to build and integrate 15 different frameworks just to make sure my website looks fine everywhere.. if you have time to deal with that crap and you have someone who will pay for that.. by all means.. go for it..

[ccuk]

LOL.. yeah..we saw how that worked 15 years ago.. I'm guessing you don't remember what web looked like before Flash.. it was disaster.. and there was no progress whatsoever..

It took them 15 years to even come to HTML5 and that thing is still not agreed upon completely.. That utopian dream is delusional.

No thanks.. I'd rather go to efficient Flash player with superb capabilities where i can do whatever I imagine without bullcrap of browser politics and individual companies agendas and just have one technology that WORKS..

That's Flash.. HTML5 still doesn't work right.. it's a dog crap slow on mobile, there's no real 3d support, webGL is a joke, video codecs are a mess on the video tag..

And that's all proof what you can expect if Flash ever dissappears.. you will have HTML5+ versions of the browser.. then you'll have Microsoft HTML5+ version of it.. then we'll have specific JS+ version for HTML5+ versions.. the CSS properties are already showing you what kind of a mess it is.. you have webkit css properties, then firefox ones, then IE ones etc..

IT's all a pipe dream and if anyone thinks that Flash sucks.. wait.. just give it some time .. you'll see what real mess is..

And btw, I don't have time to build and integrate 15 different frameworks just to make sure my website looks fine everywhere.. if you have time to deal with that crap and you have someone who will pay for that.. by all means.. go for it..

No offense, but as the end user I don't care how hard it is for you to make the sites. I care about using them, it's for you to deal with it. I don't hear a BMW engineer whining that the new M3 is using a new ECU that involves hours more work to diagnose faults... I do however hear the consumer singing it's praises for being easier and safer to drive.

Are you arguing that flash shouldn't die because you want it easy making flash apps, or because you genuinely feel that in 5 years a standard cross browser standard wouldn't be leaner and more useful to the end users?

[Boz]

Are you arguing that flash shouldn't die because you want it easy making flash apps, or because you genuinely feel that in 5 years a standard cross browser standard wouldn't be leaner and more useful to the end users?

No.. it's simply because there are numerous things that HTML5/JS/CSS just simply CANNOT do and runtime can..

Accessing camera, microphone and similar things creates fantastic new platforms.. I don't expect you to be a visionary as you already said you are just a user.. you may not see the value in accessing hardware thorugh a web browser in your app but it creates a whole new world of possibilities and ideas for developers and that's how revolutionary services and apps come to be..

What you are saying is, let's go, let's make all sites look like wordpress templates, have them look like news sites, have them scroll and that's best.. because that's what HTML does for you now.. canvas extends some possibilities but overall the only thing you can do with HTML techonlogies are severly limited with animation capabilities, with functionality that brings up creativity and various things you can do with the web..

If you can't see that, well I guess you better stick to blogs and news sites and forums..

You wouldn't see HALF of the things you take for granted today and platforms you use every day if it wasn't for Flash.. The revolution in video, interactivity, social aspects, games, live streaming and events, video on demand services, music sites and services that built themselves thanks to Flash such as YouTube, Vimeo, hell even Facebook, Zynga games, uSteam, Last.fm, Hulu, Grooveshark and so many others wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Flash and it's technologies where developers can do awesome things. So yeah, IT SHOULD matter to you as a user.

[ccuk]

No.. it's simply because there are numerous things that HTML5/JS/CSS just simply CANNOT do and runtime can..

Accessing camera, microphone and similar things creates fantastic new platforms.. I don't expect you to be a visionary as you already said you are just a user.. you may not see the value in accessing hardware thorugh a web browser in your app but it creates a whole new world of possibilities..

What you are saying is, let's go, let's make all sites look like wordpress templates, have them look like news sites, have them scroll and that's best.. because that's what HTML does for you now.. canvas extends some possibilities but overall the only thing you can do with HTML techonlogies are severly limited with animation capabilities, with functionality that brings up creativity and various things you can do with the web..

If you can't see that, well I guess you better stick to blogs and news sites and forums..

You wouldn't see HALF of the things you take for granted today and platforms you use every day if it wasn't for Flash.. The revolution in video, interactivity, social aspects, games, live streaming and events, video on demand services, music sites and services that built themselves thanks to Flash such as Last.fm, Hulu, Grooveshark and many others wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Flash and it's technologies where developers can do awesome things. So yeah, IT SHOULD matter to you as a user.

Rather arrogant stance... I used to dev flash apps back in 2004, I know full well what it has achieved but I also have the foresight to realise that the web is changing rather rapidly and flash has had its day. Explain to me what flash app in a browser would realistically use a mic and webcam? On the whole, if I visit a website, I am after some info... I don't want to have to site through some crappy animation with some stupid UI that gets in between me and the info. Flash sites make it hard to get at what you want... They are useful for games, and motion based content but that's where it ends; but also where other technologies come into play and thus a handover begins.

I am interested in understanding what is so good about flash from your point of view. I mean, what is it you create that HTML5 can't address in the future?

[Boz]

Btw.. I'm not stuck on Flash per se.. if there was a technology that would allow us to do stuff we can do wtih Flash and it's completely open source and part of W3C and everyone has to support it as the lowest common denominator and we had great tools to build these experiences and apps that would just work across all browsers without writing code 15 versions of code, I wouldn't mind dumping Flash at ALL..

I don't owe Adobe anything.. but the reality is, that it's still the best, most advanced technology on the web that allows us to do fantastic things.. and even though it might lose some influence do to the fact that HTML5/JS/CSS did in fact improve some aspects in development where you don't necessarily need to use Flash anymore for it, I think those who want to create amazing things will use both technologies..

Use HTML5/JS/CSS for simpler things and when you need something more advanced you do those modules in Flash..that's actually what most people do these days as well .. including myself.. Google does it too.

It's the best of both worlds.

Rather arrogant stance... I used to dev flash apps back in 2004, I know full well what it has achieved but I also have the foresight to realise that the web is changing rather rapidly and flash has had its day.

And that's the problem.. your understanding of Flash from 2004 and 2011 is different.. I can't go into it and explain to you what Flash does better and plethora of things it can do that HTML5/JS/CSS can't because it would take forever.. but Flash from 2004 is certainly not FLash today..

Though I understand some people's frustration and banners nad stuff that Flash brings.. it's a thing you will not avoid EVER.. You will see even more obtrusive ads and similar in HTML that you actually won't be able to block unless you turn your Javascript off and that will kill your whole internet experience.. this is not going away..

But just to give one simple example.. developing in AS3 is a thing of beauty.. it's a true OOP language.. JS is messy as hell.. AS3 performance is significantly better than JS, you can build whatever you imagine creatively.. you don't have any limitations to deal with because runtime transends all browser problems, codecs and similar.. all you have to do is think about what your final product/service/app/game will look like.. you can connect multiple people with cameras via peer-to-peer live streaming capabilities of Flash player, you can create fantastic social experiences, you can directly access Kinect from your browser and create sites that become Minority Report experience directly in a browser with no need fro anything else but Flash..etc etc.. the possibilities are endless.. none of this you can do with HTML5/JS/CSS..

Is this type of thing applicable to every site..of course not.. New York Times, or Neowin or sites like Engadget don't need to be built fully in Flash.. and in fact, people SHOULDN'T use Flash unless they need specific things from it and advanced capabilities but to go and build things just to try to avoid Flash even though the better solution would be to use flash, or just because Steve Jobs says Flash is bad.. is ridiculous.. it's like trying to go back 10 years to try to fix something that really doesn't need that much fixing.

And I've already given numerous examples of why Flash is simply not replaceable by HTML5 as easy as this Apple anti-Adobe crusade is suggesting.

And this is NOW.. when Flash Player 11 comes out, Flash will be again light years ahead performance wise, feature wise ahead of anything on the web.

And it's actually a very exciting thing.. and I'm not even getting into mobile development, AIR, deployment to phones + TVs + tablets + web.. all with 1 single code base and features that are just fantastic.

[Ryoken]

They could if Apple allowed them access to specific low level APIs .. but they never did.. and in return OSX users got the crap.. it's not that Adobe didn't want to.. they couldn't because of hte nature of how Flash works.. on Windows that was not the issue..

Only recently like mid last year, Apple opened up their system API to allow ADobe to create a better Flash player.. and new Flash player runs 10 times better then ever has on Macs.. and it only gets better.. Flash Player 11 will be completely hardware accelerated on a lowest 3D level.

So as you see, again Apple and their closed up policies was the blame for awful performance on their platform alone and then they used the marketing and lies really to spread this disinformation to divert the hatred from users to Adobe and not deal with the actual reason behind the problems.

What's their excuse for the years of crappy FlashPlayers before the era of Hardware Acceleration ?

It's a great excuse now, but it's not the whole story, as Flash Player was a buggy POS long before hardware acceleration came to be on Windows..

I mean Silverlight works like a dream.. It's reasonably fast, and doesn't crash all the time..

[Melfster]

What's their excuse for the years of crappy FlashPlayers before the era of Hardware Acceleration ?

It's a great excuse now, but it's not the whole story, as Flash Player was a buggy POS long before hardware acceleration came to be on Windows..

I mean Silverlight works like a dream.. It's reasonably fast, and doesn't crash all the time..

Flash reminds me of active X controls and all the problems associated with them. It was created awhile ago and Internet is moving on. Flash right now does somethings that HTML 5 can't but I have tell you I don't see it being really relevant in the future mobile space. Flash will continue to exist but it will become less relevant over time. Most apps are being with the created native tools of each platform. Microsoft will push Silverlight on the mobile space and desktop apps space I don't think it will really push Silverlight on the Webspace all that much choosing HTML 5 instead.