San Francisco may vote on banning male circumcision

[Seizure1990]

When did I say I would ban entire genres? (edit: oh, right, i said "metal". K, sorry about that, but as iamawesome said "Oh please, you know what I mean" :rolleyes:. Anyways, here's the clarification) I merely said I would control what he listened to. What are you even arguing against?

My point is that I have a right to circumcise my child, and make that decision for him, just as I have the right to tell him he can't watch Harold and Kumar.

[FloatingFatMan]

As a parent of two, I'm WAY more qualified to speak on raising kids than you lot, so here's some info for you.

A parents job is NOT to control every aspect of their child's life. A parents job is to help and guide their children into becoming considerate and productive members of society. To teach them right from wrong and to help them be the best person they can be. A parent does not OWN their children, and IMO, has no right to force beliefs on them. Religion is a massively personal thing and to give them zero choice on something as major as removing part of their penis shows zero consideration for their future.

My little girl, for example, is currently 8 years old. Most girls her age already have their ears pierced, and I've even seen one or two with a nose piercing. My little girl is un-pierced with will remain that way until I consider her mature enough to decide for HERSELF if that's what she wants to do. Then, if that's what she wants, she can have whatever she wants, pierced. Same goes for my son.

Another example. I am an atheist, I've even been called a militant atheist at times; yet my kids attend Sunday school at our local Methodist church. I do this because I feel it's VERY important that they learn about religion, and the Sunday school are more qualified to teach them the intricicies of it than I am. I balance this relgious teaching with counterpoints of my own, and answer any questions they have to the best of my ability. Above all else, I do not and will not lie to them. The end result of that? My son doesn't believe in god, but does enjoy the social aspect of the church and has joined the Boys Brigade (similar to Scouts). My daughter, on the other hand, has decided that she believes in god AND enjoys the social aspect of church. She's joined the Girls Brigade AND the church choir, and has asked if she can have her confirmation when she's older.

Both my kids are intelligent, respectful, polite, and never get themselve in serious trouble; just the usual kid misbehaviour you expect for an 11 and 8 year old, despite my son having ADHD & Aspergers and my daughter Dispraxia. I consider myself to have done a great job of parenting so far, and I feel this is mainly because I not only teach them, but I also respect them as people.

I would NEVER, EVER consider doing anything like having my son circumcised. It's NOT my body and I absolutely NO right to change it according to MY beliefs. If HE decides in the future that he wants to be cut, that's HIS choice, not mine.

[tiagosilva29]

the Sunday school are more qualified to teach them the intricacies of it than I am.

All was fine until I read this. Like all was fine when I went to Sunday school until I queried on Jesus pwning the merchants at the Temple, slavery, mauling bears, homosexuals' salvation and women's perspective and all that ****.

Pastafarianism is more qualified to teach them the intricacies of religion.

[FloatingFatMan]

All was fine until I read this. Like all was fine when I went to Sunday school until I queried on Jesus pwning the merchants at the Temple, slavery, mauling bears, homosexuals' salvation and women's perspective and all that ****.

Pastafarianism is more qualified to teach them the intricacies of religion.

Depends on the Sunday school. This one is run by my kids grandma.

[Seizure1990]

As a parent of two, I'm WAY more qualified to speak on raising kids than you lot, so here's some info for you.

A parents job is NOT to control every aspect of their child's life. A parents job is to help and guide their children into becoming considerate and productive members of society. To teach them right from wrong and to help them be the best person they can be. A parent does not OWN their children, and IMO, has no right to force beliefs on them. Religion is a massively personal thing and to give them zero choice on something as major as removing part of their penis shows zero consideration for their future.

My little girl, for example, is currently 8 years old. Most girls her age already have their ears pierced, and I've even seen one or two with a nose piercing. My little girl is un-pierced with will remain that way until I consider her mature enough to decide for HERSELF if that's what she wants to do. Then, if that's what she wants, she can have whatever she wants, pierced. Same goes for my son.

Another example. I am an atheist, I've even been called a militant atheist at times; yet my kids attend Sunday school at our local Methodist church. I do this because I feel it's VERY important that they learn about religion, and the Sunday school are more qualified to teach them the intricicies of it than I am. I balance this relgious teaching with counterpoints of my own, and answer any questions they have to the best of my ability. Above all else, I do not and will not lie to them. The end result of that? My son doesn't believe in god, but does enjoy the social aspect of the church and has joined the Boys Brigade (similar to Scouts). My daughter, on the other hand, has decided that she believes in god AND enjoys the social aspect of church. She's joined the Girls Brigade AND the church choir, and has asked if she can have her confirmation when she's older.

Both my kids are intelligent, respectful, polite, and never get themselve in serious trouble; just the usual kid misbehaviour you expect for an 11 and 8 year old, despite my son having ADHD & Aspergers and my daughter Dispraxia. I consider myself to have done a great job of parenting so far, and I feel this is mainly because I not only teach them, but I also respect them as people.

I would NEVER, EVER consider doing anything like having my son circumcised. It's NOT my body and I absolutely NO right to change it according to MY beliefs. If HE decides in the future that he wants to be cut, that's HIS choice, not mine.

That's a heart-warming anecdote, and I'm happy for you.

However, there are other parents here who've taken the opposite stance as you, so try not to be too obnoxious about it, and secondly, you're one person/one family. Your way isn't necessarily the "right way", just "your way". =]

PS: If my child decided he was atheist, what would I do about it anyways? There really isn't much I can do, is there? It's his choice, and not something I would control, even if I could.

Also, once again, your point seems to be missing the fact that circumcision doesn't force him into a religious position. It's still his choice.

PPS: For those who ARE religious, instilling religious values go right along with your guidance for becoming a well-adjusted person, productive person.

[Jebadiah]

So hand on, the place is running a deficit running into the millions and they waste time on this stuff?

Actually, this is going to save people some time and suffering once this is passed. It's a traumatic procedure for anybody and, if it can be banned, I am all for it.

All human body part serve a purpose.

[Seizure1990]

Actually, this is going to save people some time and suffering if this is passed.

(it won't be)

[tiagosilva29]

Depends on the Sunday school. This one is run by my kids grandma.

And she lectures about all religions or just about hers? The whole point of you letting them learn about religion (which I consider as something irrelevant for a child) is for them to learn about a bit of everything. Theology 101 if it pleases you. You say that your children are found of the whole Christian social structure thing. I say that it's normal, since they were exposed to just it. I also enjoyed that, until I started asking the wrong questions.

[ylcard]

Actually, this is going to save people some time and suffering once this is passed. It's a traumatic procedure for anybody and, if it can be banned, I am all for it.

All human body part serve a purpose.

lol, no.

[FloatingFatMan]

And she lectures about all religions or just about hers? The whole point of you letting them learn about religion (which I consider as something irrelevant for a child) is for them to learn about a bit of everything. Theology 101 if it pleases you. You say that your children are found of the whole Christian social structure thing. I say that it's normal, since they were exposed to just it. I also enjoyed that, until I started asking the wrong questions.

Before she retired, she taught religious education in a high school. She tries to keep her Sunday school class as evenly balanced as that was, and covers at least the main ones as best she can.

Questions are encouraged, or I wouldn't let my kids go.

[Jebadiah]

lol, no.

LOL Empty post. I forgot. Your brain doesn't serve any purpose. Let's cut it out; make you a vegetable. LMAO!

As for those who think there are health benefits to getting circumcised, answer me this: How the **** did we survive these past millions of years without circumcision? Oh wait ... I forgot. God created us all just 2,000-3,000 years ago. :rolleyes:

[Seizure1990]

I guess the same way we survived with our wisdom teeth.

[ylcard]

LOL Empty post. I forgot. Your brain doesn't serve any purpose. Let's cut it out; make you a vegetable. LMAO!

As for those who think there are health benefits to getting circumcised, answer me this: How the **** did we survive these past millions of years without circumcision? Oh wait ... I forgot. God created us all just 2,000-3,000 years ago. :rolleyes:

It's only empty because no one should ever answer/argue against such stupid statements, if it had been a question, I would gladly answer you, but seeing as you demonstrated your ignorance by STATING a lie, I will just sit, point and laugh at you.

Health benefits != survival.

The human race survived through a lot tough ****.

[Calum Veteran]

Out of curiosity, why aren't we allowed to chop off the little fingers of our children if we feel like it? They don't need their little fingers, just like they don't need their foreskins, so surely that should be allowed? If you people are allowed to harm children by chopping off one body part they don't need because of *your* beliefs, people who wish to remove their children's little fingers due to their beliefs should be able to, right? :)

[Seizure1990]

Because a finger/appendage is different then a wrapper around your dick. It still helps you. That's a bad comparison. Try thinking about the removal of the appendix, and then pretend that it's an external organ, not internal. THAT would be equivalent.

[Calum Veteran]

Because a finger/appendage is different then a wrapper around your dick. It still helps you. That's a bad comparison. Try thinking about the removal of the appendix, and then pretend that it's an external organ, not internal. THAT would be equivalent.

I suppose you're right. I use my little finger when typing sometimes. However, nothing anyone says will convince me that it's okay to remove someone's body part without their permission, whether that body part is useless or not.

[Calum Veteran]

I haven't been able to reply to all people's posts here due to all of the work I have to do, but someone sent me a private message for more information on why I believe what I do in regard to this subject, so I replied and will post my response here. This is the best way I believe I can articulate my views on this matter:

In regard to my views on this, it all comes down to the fact that no one can be sure which religion a baby will choose to follow when they can make that concious choice, or whether they will follow a religion at all. Due to that, I think it's highly immoral to commit this irreversible act when it's likely the child won't even wish to follow that religion.

My mother had me christened when I was young; it's not something I could control or consent to, and it's now something I find quite disgusting. Luckily, I was not physically harmed when christened; however, if Christianity is actually "the real" religion and if there is a God that wishes us to follow Christianity, I have actually been tainted and forced to join that religion without consenting to it. I doubt I would support Christianity if it turned out to be "the true" religion because I don't agree with a lot of what the Bible promotes. So that is what it all boils down to with me: Tainting people and performing irreversible actions when the child has not consented.

I realise the rules of Judaism state the child must be circumcised at 8 days old, but I think the rights and freedoms of the child should come first. The child may grow up to wish to follow Judaism, and if they do, they may be gutted or devastated that they weren't circumcised; that is a point I recognise. However, as I have pointed out, there is absolutely no indication the child may wish to follow Judaism. My mother is Christian, but I refuse the follow the Christian religion, so people trying to assert that circumcising unconsenting babies is okay simply because their parents are religious just doesn't sit well with me. Due to the fact we are able to exercise free will and freethought, it's still likely the child will decide not to be religious.

The child may end up being devastated if they haven't been circumcised (if they decide to follow Judaism), but they may be devastated if they have been circumcised (if they decide not to follow Judaism). As circumcision is irreversible and there is no inclination whatsoever that the child may wish to follow Judaism, it makes sense to not carry out this act on unconsenting babies.

I respect the right of religious people to practice their religion, but only when those practices will not harm others; in the case of infant circumcision, we cannot be sure it won't cause harm.

I think that is the best way I can articulate my views :) I know I'd be devastated if my mother had me circumcised because I'm already not too happy she had me christened when I could not consent to it.

[ylcard]

I suppose you're right. I use my little finger when typing sometimes. However, nothing anyone says will convince me that it's okay to remove someone's body part without their permission, whether that body part is useless or not.

Well there's your problem, stop thinking of the foreskin as a body part, think of it as foreskin. Oh wait..

"In regard to my views on this, it all comes down to the fact that no one can be sure which religion a baby will choose to follow when they can make that concious choice, or whether they will follow a religion at all. Due to that, I think it's highly immoral to commit this irreversible act when it's likely the child won't even wish to follow that religion"

Here's the thing, circumcision doesn't mean that you HAVE to practice Judaism, but if you are practicing Judaism, you HAVE to be circumcised. So if he chooses to be a Buddhist, or an Atheist, him being circumcised will mean absolutely NOTHING to him OR his religion.

There are many people who circumcise themselves and their kids for non-religious reasons, so going by that fact alone it proves that circumcision doesn't force you to follow a particular religion, nor does it prevent you from following any religion.

I'm not sure why you feel that you're tainted in any way, if you believe in God and follow Christianity, you shouldn't feel that way, if you're an Atheist, you shouldn't care, considering you don't believe in it.

[Nexus-]

They're trying to create a law to criminalize something that is totally optional? Absolute smacktardery.

But its the same rationalization that applies to homophobia, so why can it not apply everywhere?! I hereby ban everyone from ice cream because my upbringing showed me that its bad for me so its bad for everyone. Wait I have a better one. I ban everyone from haircuts because some children are deathly afraid of people cutting their hair and some even cry. I also ban clowns because some small children are afraid of them as well.

[Calum Veteran]

Well there's your problem, stop thinking of the foreskin as a body part, think of it as foreskin. Oh wait..

But it is a body part, so that suggestion is stupid.

"In regard to my views on this, it all comes down to the fact that no one can be sure which religion a baby will choose to follow when they can make that concious choice, or whether they will follow a religion at all. Due to that, I think it's highly immoral to commit this irreversible act when it's likely the child won't even wish to follow that religion"

Here's the thing, circumcision doesn't mean that you HAVE to practice Judaism, but if you are practicing Judaism, you HAVE to be circumcised. So if he chooses to be a Buddhist, or an Atheist, him being circumcised will mean absolutely NOTHING to him OR his religion.

Actually, you're wrong. It may mean something to his religion because if he is circumcised he is tainted with the fact it was done in the name of Judaism. Even if it doesn't affect him in a religious way, it could affect him in a mental way. I've already stated I would despise it if someone had cut off my foreskin without my permission, and I know I'm not alone in that sentiment. Stating that cutting off a piece of his body will mean nothing to him is ignorant; you don't know everyone, so you don't know what will affect different people. Yes, being circumcised doesn't mean you have to follow Judaism, but it does mean you no longer have a part of your body some people enjoy and cherish. Not getting into too much detail, I imagine (from experience) masturbation and sex are both a bit more enjoyable when one has a foreskin due to how the foreskin is involved; even if they're not, some people simply prefer to have ther foreskins. Yes, being circumcised at that age is a condition of being Jewish, but as I have pointed out many times, there is absolutely no inclination that the child is going to want to be Jewish. Your arguments could be used by people trying to make it law that everybody is circumcised at that age. Would you agree with that? Would you agree with them passing a law ensuring every single baby is circumcised at the age of 8 just in case they decide to follow a religion that requires that at some point in the future? If you don't agree with that, I don't see how you can agree with this. As I have pointed out, the parents being religious has absolutely no affect on the child's free will or their choice of religion.

There are many people who circumcise themselves and their kids for non-religious reasons, so going by that fact alone it proves that circumcision doesn't force you to follow a particular religion, nor does it prevent you from following any religion.

I've never stated or suggested that. I've just pointed out that it is not right to harm a child in the name of religion. Some people who have been circumcised in the past admit that it has harmed them and they'd prefer to have foreskins, which is why I believe this is something that should be the choice of the person. Innocent children should not be punished just because a religion they may not follow requires something to be done to them.

I'm not sure why you feel that you're tainted in any way, if you believe in God and follow Christianity, you shouldn't feel that way, if you're an Atheist, you shouldn't care, considering you don't believe in it.

What I tried to communicate is that if God exists and if he does in fact wish us all to follow Christianity, then I have been tainted by my mother joining me into the Christian faith without my permission. Even if God exists and wishes us to follow Christianity, I don't think I would because I believe it promotes a lot of immoral values. I'm not atheist, I'm agnostic. I believe it's very possible God exists, but I reckon he wouldn't advocate what any of the holy books suggest.

[Calum Veteran]

How about this then:

We only need one testicle; there is no need for both, which is why it's okay to remove one when a person has testicular cancer. So, I ask:

Those who support removing the foreskin of unconsenting babies, simply due to the fact a holy book states it should be done, would you support removing one testicle of an 8 day old baby if a holy book stated that should be done, even if it's very possible the baby will not follow that religion?

They're trying to create a law to criminalize something that is totally optional? Absolute smacktardery.

No, they're not. They're trying to criminalise something which can be harmful. It is not optional because the babies who are circumcised have no option; it is done to them without their consent.

[Seizure1990]

That's even less comparable then cutting off a finger as you stated earlier (and then retracted) and if you don't stop making ludicrous comparisons, there's no sense in further discussion with you. You are clearly blowing this out of proportion.

Do you think we should ban christenings and baptisms too? Based on your reasoning, you should.

[Calum Veteran]

That's even less comparable then cutting off a finger as you stated earlier (and then retracted) and if you don't stop making ludicrous comparisons, there's no sense in further discussion with you. You are clearly blowing this out of proportion.

Why is it? I've pointed out that we only need one testicle, and that is one of the reasons a lot of you are using as to why it's fine to remove someone's foreskin without their permission (it's fine because Judaism requires it and we don't need foreskins). It is not a ludicrous suggestion. If you believe it is you must state why (and that idea must be reasonable) otherwise I will maintain the comparison

Do you think we should ban christenings and baptisms too? Based on your reasoning, you should.

Baptisms and christenings of unconsenting children, yes, due to their meaning. As I have pointed out, if Christianity is the true religion that God (if he exists) wishes us to follow, I have been tainted by being christened without my consent. There is absolutely nothing wrong with people getting a christening or baptism when they can consent, but due to the meaning of those acts, they shouldn't be committed on unconsenting children.

[Prince781]

Donald Trump has already sent private investigators to the white house to spy on him in the bathroom to find out... and he's shocked at what they are finding, or not finding

Regardless of their find, they'll still need a certificate from Obama for absolute proof in any direction. :p

[Seizure1990]

If you think Baptisms and Christenings should be banned too, then does that mean we should ban sending our kids to extracurricular activities? What if they have no interest in soccer, or painting?