77 replies to this topic

[Ice_Blue]

Seriously cool. Office 15. Natch.

http://arstechnica.c...t-much-more.ars

[Syanide]

"WOA does not support running, emulating, or porting existing x86/64 desktop apps."

So the only point of the desktop mode on ARM is to run the Office suite? I don't understand why they wouldn't allow porting as it'd be a great feature for many.

[~Johnny]

Syanide, on 10 February 2012 - 00:04, said:

"WOA does not support running, emulating, or porting existing x86/64 desktop apps."

So the only point of the desktop mode on ARM is to run the Office suite? I don't understand why they wouldn't allow porting as it'd be a great feature for many.

They want Windows on ARM tablets to be competitive with the iPad - in the fact that they want it to have amazing battery life, nearly zero chance of getting virus or malware', and be as stable as possible. By culling third party desktop apps with unrestricted computer access (ensuring better stability & battery life) and ensuring everyone lives perfectly well inside the WinRT sandbox, they can do this.

For everyone else, there's x86 tablets

[Stetson]

Syanide, on 10 February 2012 - 00:04, said:

"WOA does not support running, emulating, or porting existing x86/64 desktop apps."

So the only point of the desktop mode on ARM is to run the Office suite? I don't understand why they wouldn't allow porting as it'd be a great feature for many.

I believe that .Net apps will work. I seriously wonder whether the low end consumer Windows 8 tablets should have the desktop enabled. With the iPad it's "You can run anything from this App store." With Windows 8 ARM it's "You can run anything from this App store, and a few normal Windows apps, but only special ones."

Trying to explain processor architectures and programming frameworks to the mass consumer market seems like a losing battle.

The closest analog to such a situation would be the OSX PowerPC-> Intel transition, but OSX Intel had an emulator to run legacy apps.

[~Johnny]

Stetson, on 10 February 2012 - 00:10, said:

I believe that .Net apps will work. I seriously wonder whether the low end consumer Windows 8 tablets should have the desktop enabled. With the iPad it's "You can run anything from this App store." With Windows 8 ARM it's "You can run anything from this App store, and a few normal Windows apps, but only special ones."

From what Microsoft have seemingly confirmed today, the ONLY desktop apps on Windows on ARM tablets (not including the default Windows apps like Explorer) will be Office - namely Word, Excel, Powerpoint and OneNote. Everything else is Metro only.

So with the Windows ARM tablet experience, it will be "you can only run anything from the app store and the built in Windows apps", unlike x86 tablets & devices.

[Stetson]

~Johnny, on 10 February 2012 - 00:13, said:

From what Microsoft have seemingly confirmed today, the ONLY desktop apps on Windows on ARM tablets (not including the default Windows apps like Explorer) will be Office - namely Word, Excel, Powerpoint and OneNote. Everything else is Metro only.

I just read the article a bit more and it seems you are right. If the only desktop apps that you will EVER be able to run (besides built in utilities) is Office 15, why not just create a special way to integrate the desktop versions of Office into the Metro launcher? Ditch the super bar, start menu, desktop icons, etc.

It really doesn't make much sense. Basically it seems like desktop on ARM is only because they don't have a Metro UI version of Office ready yet, and they feel that they must have Office on W8 ARM at launch.

[~Johnny]

Stetson, on 10 February 2012 - 00:16, said:

I just read the article a bit more and it seems you are right. If the only desktop apps that you will EVER be able to run (besides built in utilities) is Office 15, why not just create a special way to integrate the desktop versions of Office into the Metro launcher? Ditch the super bar, start menu, desktop icons, etc.

It really doesn't make much sense. Basically it seems like desktop on ARM is only because they don't have a Metro UI version of Office ready yet, and they feel that they must have Office on W8 ARM at launch.

My basic thoughts on that are realistically, the XAML / C# model probably won't give them the performance they need for a good Office suite (unfortunately it seems to have borrowed from Silverlight codebase, rather than WPF - probably because the Silverlight's codebase was already architecturally portable - even more of shame considering how much better WPF's font rendering got with it's text stack update. The WinRT XAML text stack is still what some people would consider blurry ) , and writing it in either HTML & JS or C++ & Direct X would require a ridiculous amount of time. That, any it'd be hard to fit all of Office's power in whilst still following the Metro guidelines of the rest of the Microsoft Metro apps.

I appreciate them focusing on it being on desktop too, just so you can manage multiple Office or document windows which isn't an uncommon scenario. I'd also wager it'd be quicker to manage files in Window explorer than whatever Metro file browser they have - the desktop setup they have they is pretty well optimized anyway, and a Metro Office app just wouldn't bring any inherent advantages to Office.

Of course, it might be confusing for some users who wonder why their familiar desktop can only do Office - but then I think in time some people might just consider the desktop the "Office app" on Windows ARM tablets, which isn't that bad an idea.

[Zain Adeel]

Actually microsoft should start calling desktop an App on ARM. And i am sure they will market it differently. Steven mentioned they will make it very clear to consumers that WOA is different.

This will allow them to make super cheap tablets to battle the ipads and lower priced android tablets. Where as more technical users will buy a x86 tablet or both. Depends really.

Like i want a laptop right now. Im saving for one. So far it looks like Windows 8 touch experience will be missed if i get a simple laptop. So im thinking of going with a x86 tablet instead. Something with a pressure sensitive digitizer. like the samsung slates. Those things are perfect for designers or if u write down lectures and stuff.
Although a little bulky.

As pointed above. They keeping Office as desktop apps so users can have multiple windows and stuff. (production end). And enjoy the start screen (consumer end).

[PGHammer]

Stetson, on 10 February 2012 - 00:16, said:

I just read the article a bit more and it seems you are right. If the only desktop apps that you will EVER be able to run (besides built in utilities) is Office 15, why not just create a special way to integrate the desktop versions of Office into the Metro launcher? Ditch the super bar, start menu, desktop icons, etc.

It really doesn't make much sense. Basically it seems like desktop on ARM is only because they don't have a Metro UI version of Office ready yet, and they feel that they must have Office on W8 ARM at launch.

Actually, the Office 15 apps you mentioned are rewritten in WinRT - which is why they are runnable on ARM. It's an API difference.

Because they are, in fact, written in WinRT, they will run on *any* OS that supports WinRT - in other words, the API is relevant; however, the CPU is not.

The Win32 API is not present on ARM - because ARM can't run it. Therefore, WOA can't run existing versions of Office.

The WDP and WCP for x86/x64 is, therefore, a *superset OS* - it supports both WinRT *and* Win32. Existing applications (and most games) actually run just fine in the WDP (not taking anybody's word for it - I've been dual-booting it with 7 since it became available).

Office 2010 can (and in fact, does) run just fine in the WDP (even the x64 version of Office 2010). Besides, you DO realize that nary a single Office 2010 shortcut appears in the Windows 7 Start menu by default, do you? (The only reason that Outlook - or any other application - even appears in Windows 7's Start menu is if was among the last ten applications you've run - however you have run them; I typically launch Outlook 2010 from the Run box for the very first time. In other words, in that sense, the Start menu duplicates functionality present in the Windows Run box - that's been present since Windows 2000 Professional - and remains in the WDP. I know the executables for the core Office 2010 by heart - therefore, I simply go directly to each via the Run box - nary a single mouse-click, because I have no shortcuts to any of them on the desktop (which is also the default for Office 2010) - in either 7 or the WDP. The difference is that if I launch one that way in Windows 7, it shows up on the Start menu - however, that is, in fact, the ONLY difference.)

If you install Office 2010 in the WDP, a Microsoft Office group shows up in the StartScreen (basically, a clone of the old menu group in Windows 7's Programs subgroup) - I just don't use it.

The Core Office 2010 Executable List (WinKey+R)

Word - WINWORD.EXE
ACCESS - MSACCESS.EXE
EXCEL - EXCEL.EXE
PowerPoint - POWERPNT.EXE
OneNote - ONENOTE.EXE
Outlook - OUTLOOK.EXE

Bitness, Windows version, and even Office version, are all irrelevant.

[Zain Adeel]

PGHammer, on 10 February 2012 - 00:43, said:

Actually, the Office 15 apps you mentioned are rewritten in WinRT - which is why they are runnable on ARM. It's an API difference.

Because they are, in fact, written in WinRT, they will run on *any* OS that supports WinRT - in other words, the API is relevant; however, the CPU is not.

The Win32 API is not present on ARM - because ARM can't run it. Therefore, WOA can't run existing versions of Office.

The WDP and WCP for x86/x64 is, therefore, a *superset OS* - it supports both WinRT *and* Win32. Existing applications (and most games) actually run just fine in the WDP (not taking anybody's word for it - I've been dual-booting it with 7 since it became available).

Office 2010 can (and in fact, does) run just fine in the WDP (even the x64 version of Office 2010). Besides, you DO realize that nary a single Office 2010 shortcut appears in the Windows 7 Start menu by default, do you? (The only reason that Outlook - or any other application - even appears in Windows 7's Start menu is if was among the last ten applications you've run - however you have run them; I typically launch Outlook 2010 from the Run box for the very first time. In other words, in that sense, the Start menu duplicates functionality present in the Windows Run box - that's been present since Windows 2000 Professional - and remains in the WDP. I know the executables for the core Office 2010 by heart - therefore, I simply go directly to each via the Run box - nary a single mouse-click, because I have no shortcuts to any of them on the desktop (which is also the default for Office 2010) - in either 7 or the WDP. The difference is that if I launch one that way in Windows 7, it shows up on the Start menu - however, that is, in fact, the ONLY difference.)

If you install Office 2010 in the WDP, a Microsoft Office group shows up in the StartScreen (basically, a clone of the old menu group in Windows 7's Programs subgroup) - I just don't use it.

The Core Office 2010 Executable List (WinKey+R)

Word - WINWORD.EXE
ACCESS - MSACCESS.EXE
EXCEL - EXCEL.EXE
PowerPoint - POWERPNT.EXE
OneNote - ONENOTE.EXE
Outlook - OUTLOOK.EXE

Bitness, Windows version, and even Office version, are all irrelevant.

very informative. What about desktop? What is that written in actually? I mean i dont really know about coding. Is the desktop ported? Is it a deeper layer? Like below WinRT? can u explain that? i would love to know how it works (oh and im talking about desktop in WOA)

[~Johnny]

PGHammer, on 10 February 2012 - 00:43, said:

Actually, the Office 15 apps you mentioned are rewritten in WinRT - which is why they are runnable on ARM. It's an API difference.

Because they are, in fact, written in WinRT, they will run on *any* OS that supports WinRT - in other words, the API is relevant; however, the CPU is not.

The Win32 API is not present on ARM - because ARM can't run it. Therefore, WOA can't run existing versions of Office.

They've already shown the exisitng Office 14 running perfectly well on ARM chips. WOA can techincally support Win32 apps if they're compiled for ARM with a few little tweaks (and does infact seem to support the use of Win32 dll's compiled within the lastest VS from inside WinRT), and these aren't WinRT apps. It's the existing Office codebase, highly tuned specifically for low power devices.

[Zain Adeel]

i was thinking. Is the Metro and desktop at the same level? (meaning if desktop crashes can we move out of it into start screen? or will the whole PC crash?

thats what im confused about.

~Johnny, on 10 February 2012 - 00:50, said:

They've already shown the exisitng Office 14 running perfectly well on ARM chips. WOA can techincally support Win32 apps if they're compiled for ARM with a few little tweaks (and does infact seem to support the use of Win32 dll's compiled within the lastest VS from inside WinRT), and these aren't WinRT apps. It's the existing Office codebase, highly tuned specifically for low power devices.

pretty much exactly what im confused about. So this means There is a code that is below Win32 or WinRT to understand each? ok now i think i need sleep.

[~Johnny]

Zain Adeel, on 10 February 2012 - 00:51, said:

i was thinking. Is the Metro and desktop at the same level? (meaning if desktop crashes can we move out of it into start screen? or will the whole PC crash?

thats what im confused about.

The desktop and the start screen are both part of Explorer.exe, though Metro apps all live in their own individual sandboxed process'. Technically if something did crash the Explorer.exe, it'd take the start screen with it - which is one of the reasons Microsoft doesn't want to allow desktop app porting on Windows On ARM (they want the stability). But how often do you see something crash Explorer?

[Zain Adeel]

~Johnny, on 10 February 2012 - 00:55, said:

The desktop and the start screen are both part of Explorer.exe, though Metro apps all live in their own individual sandboxed process'. Technically if something did crash the Explorer.exe, it'd take the start screen with it - which is one of the reasons Microsoft doesn't want to allow desktop app porting on Windows On ARM (they want the stability). But how often do you see something crash Explorer?

well my explorer.exe crashes every now and then So i have to run it from task manager. It happens due to some softwares *ahem* and little bit customizing the .dlls

Anyhow. Now i get it. So the desktop tile is just a shortcut to desktop screen. But wait. ohh.. i get it. Thats why MS said if u are copying something in desktop it will keep on copying even if the system sleeps whereas the metro apps get suspended. Thats because the explorer is still running. (im talking about connected standby btw).

[PGHammer]

Zain Adeel, on 10 February 2012 - 00:40, said:

Actually microsoft should start calling desktop an App on ARM. And i am sure they will market it differently. Steven mentioned they will make it very clear to consumers that WOA is different.

This will allow them to make super cheap tablets to battle the ipads and lower priced android tablets. Where as more technical users will buy a x86 tablet or both. Depends really.

Like i want a laptop right now. Im saving for one. So far it looks like Windows 8 touch experience will be missed if i get a simple laptop. So im thinking of going with a x86 tablet instead. Something with a pressure sensitive digitizer. like the samsung slates. Those things are perfect for designers or if u write down lectures and stuff.
Although a little bulky.

As pointed above. They keeping Office as desktop apps so users can have multiple windows and stuff. (production end). And enjoy the start screen (consumer end).

WinRT is, in fact, CPU-neutral. However, simply due to the focus of WinRT (lightweight code, portability, power-sipping), there are some things that WinRT is decidedly unsuitable for (which is why no rewritten Outlook as of yet) and why some applications will never - and, in fact, should never, be rewritten in WinRT. (Access is also noticeable by its absence, as is Outlook.)

Windows 8 outside of ARM (x86/x64) is a true *superset OS* - it runs WinRT and Win32 APIs. No choosing is needed. However, there's also no learning curve. (That is, in fact, what separates Windows 8 from what has gone before in terms of Windows - even Tablet PC Edition.) You can actually add a tablet/stylus (say a Wacom model) to a traditional desktop and use the tablet/slate APIs that are there, and thus gain FAR more functionality than is provided by the Wacom pointing-device-proprietary API - and without boxing yourself in; how slick is that?

The folks up in arms over Immersive are used to being *forced* to choose. What Microsoft is saying with Windows 8 on x86/64 is "Why choose?"

Traditional applications still work - in the traditional way. (My screenies in the Windows 8 screenshots thread are *all* on traditional hardware - most are, in fact, traditional application-focussed. The same will absolutely and certainly apply to the Consumer Preview.)