168 replies to this topic 8 votes

[CSharp.]

matt4pack, on 12 March 2012 - 23:10, said:

Apple and Microsoft are both getting bad about ui intuitiveness. To add a space in Lion you have to over to mouse over the top right corner to get a plus popout. There is nothing that tells you a popout exist unless you just happen to mouse over to the area that activates it.

Now I know but the first time it took me half an hour to figure out how to add a damn space when before all you had to do was go to system preferences.

There's some truth to that. The difference is, that we're talking about a fairly advanced feature here. One that doesn't even exist in Windows for example. Same with the iPad really. I bet many people don't even know about the iPad's multitasking feature, simply because they haven't figured out double-pressing the home button or using the gesture to get to it. So what? They're still getting around the OS, just a bit less efficiently. Because at least there is one obvious physical button on the front of the device that'll aways get them back to the home screen.

[myxomatosis]

V23, on 12 March 2012 - 10:54, said:

There will be a tutorial in the final build. People didn't know how to use a desktop at first...they learned. People didn't know how to use an iPhone/iPad at first...they learned. Windows 8 will be no different.

I've been using a computer for the last 20 years (as a kid and now as an adult), and I'm puttin bread and butter on my table with a computer (working at the NOC of a cable/internet/IP telephony provider).

I'm 30 and I don't have time to re-learn how to use a computer. My job is to be productive with my computer! It's not to learn how to use it all over again 20 years later 'cause someone at Microsoft decided the Start Menu is the wrong way to do things.

Windows 8 will flop big time. I don't see this "Frankeinstein" of an operating system getting installed in companies. Companies don't have time, money and ressources to waste with that.

[farmeunit]

Vice, on 12 March 2012 - 09:59, said:

This video just proves everything I've been saying so far in all the Windows 8 threads on here. Normal people won't understand how to use it.

This is so true. For all the people talking about tutorials online, do you not think there aren't tutorials already for other Windows versions? The search on the Start menu is "new" to 90% of the people I show it too. Do you really think people will watch tutorials to learn how to use Windows 8? They won't even know how to get online to view the videos, lol.

For all these other issues, "you just need to press this key, or that key". The problem is that people use the mouse for everything, unless typing in word processor or a browser.

[pack34]

myxomatosis, on 12 March 2012 - 23:17, said:

I've been using a computer for the last 20 years (as a kid and now as an adult), and I'm puttin bread and butter on my table with a computer (working at the NOC of a cable/internet/IP telephony provider).

I'm 30 and I don't have time to re-learn how to use a computer. My job is to be productive with my computer! It's not to learn how to use it all over again 20 years later 'cause someone at Microsoft decided the Start Menu is the wrong way to do things.

Windows 8 will flop big time. I don't see this "Frankeinstein" of an operating system getting installed in companies. Companies don't have time, money and ressources to waste with that.

You are aware that you can use it just about the same as windows 7, right? If you just want to use the desktop and not mess with the Metro stuff, all that will be different to you would be that the start menu looks different.

[MidnightDevil]

After the learning curve I believe it can be quite intuitive

[CSharp.]

MidnightDevil, on 12 March 2012 - 23:24, said:

After the learning curve I believe it can be quite intuitive

How can something be intuitive if there's a learning curve?
Of course, arguably, no computer interface is intuitive. They are all just learned.

[.Neo]

CJEric, on 12 March 2012 - 23:14, said:

There's some truth to that. The difference is, that we're talking about a fairly advanced feature here. One that doesn't even exist in Windows for example. Same with the iPad really. I bet many people don't even know about the iPad's multitasking feature, simply because they haven't figured out double-pressing the home button or using the gesture to get to it. So what? They're still getting around the OS, just a bit less efficiently. Because at least there is one obvious physical button on the front of the device that'll aways get them back to the home screen.

Exactly.

[Wyn6]

.Neo, on 12 March 2012 - 23:13, said:

I think the video is spot on. A truly intuitive product is one where the basics are understood right away, not through tutorials, reading manuals or other forms of outside help. Those "Charms" are extremely counter-intuitive because you won't be able to figure them out without an explanation. Now if they were used for some extra functionality it wouldn't be such a disaster, but no, currently Microsoft is forcing you to use them in order to access very basic functions like going back to Start or shut down your PC. It's an accessibility disaster waiting to happen even if Microsoft adds tutorials to Windows 8.


The [+] automatically pops up if you drag a window around in Mission Control, you can then drop the window onto the [+] to create a new space for whatever app you're working with.

Then as far as PCs/Tech Gadgets go, I'd say there aren't any "truly intuitive products". There's a learning curve with everything. Do you know how many people I know with iphones, windows phones and androids that don't know how to do certain things on their phones? I showed somebody the other day, when trying to reply to one person in a group text, how to subtract the other names so she didn't reply to everyone. This person didn't have that person in their contacts. But, now she knows.

First time I ever sat down with the ipad (my brother's not mine) I tapped an icon and went into that app. Checked it out for a bit then started looking for a way to go back through the app. Not out of it, just back to a previous page. My brother had to show me as there's no back button. He also had to show me the double-tap on the home button to bring up a list of recent apps. Needless to say, I sat there for a bit trying to get around it. Had the same thing first time I ever tried to use a Mac too. But, once I knew, I knew.

A person who has never used a PC would take some time to figure it out. They don't just grab the mouse and start doing all there is or even the simplest things on a computer. When you purchase a new car, sure you can drive it (I hope) but it takes you time to figure out how to set up certain things. This is the reason the salesperson attempts to walk you through the car's features and functions.

This is the same reason that EVERY electronic device and gadget comes with a manual. If they were as intuitive as some of you say, there would be no need for a manual and the manufacturer could save some money by not writing them. Why pay some technical writer to scribe something that's unnecessary?

Now, ALL that being said, I'm not saying that 8 couldn't do things better (this is a beta and should get better), there's always room for improvement for anything. But, I'm certain Microsoft, as it has in the past, and as other companies/manufacturers do, will have some sort of instructions for its newest operating system.

[trag3dy]

pack34, on 12 March 2012 - 23:23, said:

You are aware that you can use it just about the same as windows 7, right? If you just want to use the desktop and not mess with the Metro stuff, all that will be different to you would be that the start menu looks different.

This is the thing I don't get. If you don't need to use the start screen at all then what's the point of even having it? The same people that say we shouldn't be able to get the old (current) start menu back seem to say that a lot and I don't get it. What's the point of the "change" if it's completely irrelevant?

I really don't see any reason why they can't give us an option to use one or the other the same way we can change around the task bar in Windows 7 now.

[.Neo]

matt4pack, on 12 March 2012 - 23:10, said:

Apple and Microsoft are both getting bad about ui intuitiveness. To add a space in Lion you have to over to mouse over the top right corner to get a plus popout. There is nothing that tells you a popout exist unless you just happen to mouse over to the area that activates it.

Now I know but the first time it took me half an hour to figure out how to add a damn space when before all you had to do was go to system preferences. There should be some kind of visual alert that mousing to the corners does something.

The [+] automatically pops up if you drag a window around in Mission Control, you can then drop the window onto the [+] to create a new space for whatever app you're working with. In any case I think Apple tried to make the manual usage of spaces / virtual desktops less prominent. When you think of it the way Linux and OS X (Snow) Leopard handle it is pretty user-unfriendly and tedious to set up. At least, I haven't seen a single causal user ever enable spaces. The new role of spaces in OS X Lion has to do with full-screen apps, where a new space is created automatically by pressing the full-screen button. The manual (old) way of using spaces isn't considered basic functionality anymore.

Now imagine if you had to access a similar [+]-popup to leave a full-screen app, shut down your Mac or access your apps. That's basically what's going on in Windows 8 right now.

[.Neo]

Wyn6, on 12 March 2012 - 23:32, said:

Then as far as PCs/Tech Gadgets go, I'd say there aren't any "truly intuitive products". There's a learning curve with everything. Do you know how many people I know with iphones, windows phones and androids that don't know how to do certain things on their phones? I showed somebody the other day, when trying to reply to one person in a group text, how to subtract the other names so she didn't reply to everyone. This person didn't have that person in their contacts. But, now she knows.

There's a distinct difference between basic functionality and more advanced. I firmly believe that when I have to search the internet to figure out how to shut down my computer a company is doing something wrong. Same goes with getting back to Start.

Wyn6, on 12 March 2012 - 23:32, said:

First time I ever sat down with the ipad (my brother's not mine) I tapped an icon and went into that app. Checked it out for a bit then started looking for a way to go back through the app. Not out of it, just back to a previous page. My brother had to show me as there's no back button. He also had to show me the double-tap on the home button to bring up a list of recent apps. Needless to say, I sat there for a bit trying to get around it. Had the same thing first time I ever tried to use a Mac too. But, once I knew, I knew.

What you're saying here doesn't make sense... To get to a previous page or menu within an app you don't double-press the home button. You only do that to exit an app and switch to another, which can also be achieved by just going back to the home screen (press the home button once, everyone knows that) and choose whatever app there. It's a little bit less efficient but point is you don't NEED to know about the double-press in order to switch to another app. If you want to go back within an app, say Safari or Mail, like you wanted to do there's ALWAYS a visible button on-screen. There's just no way to achieve that by pressing the home button (doesn't matter how many times), so what you're telling me simply isn't possible.

Wyn6, on 12 March 2012 - 23:32, said:

This is the same reason that EVERY electronic device and gadget comes with a manual. If they were as intuitive as some of you say, there would be no need for a manual and the manufacturer could save some money by not writing them. Why pay some technical writer to scribe something that's unnecessary?

Because most devices are extremely counter intuitive. That doesn't make it right though.

[notuptome2004]

trag3dy, on 12 March 2012 - 23:33, said:

This is the thing I don't get. If you don't need to use the start screen at all then what's the point of even having it? The same people that say we shouldn't be able to get the old (current) start menu back seem to say that a lot and I don't get it. What's the point of the "change" if it's completely irrelevant?

I really don't see any reason why they can't give us an option to use one or the other the same way we can change around the task bar in Windows 7 now.

Why should Microsoft spend more time and money on giving us 2 options to use one or the other it makes no since cause then you will have noobs new users to windows or computers in general get confused and be like well my brother or sister has windows 8 but it looks nothing like this i dont get it what is going on .


and as for change well Explain to me why we went from windows 3.1 to windows 95 same damn reason change is happening now because at some point change always happens 70 years from now do you think some damn tech geek is gonna ask Why he cant have the start Menu ... No he is not cause by then the whole start menu system even the start screen will have been replaced with something else that is not in the sight of current Microsoft employees .


i could just imaging the Bar Topic when the first first horseless carage arrived and what everyone siad ( oh pish posh why do i need a horseless carage when my Horse can get me ther just the same )

[CSharp.]

notuptome2004, on 12 March 2012 - 23:59, said:

at some point change always happens

Only that this time, it's change for the worse, for a lot of desktop users at least.

Here's what's wrong with Windows 8.

[trag3dy]

notuptome2004, on 12 March 2012 - 23:59, said:

Why should Microsoft spend more time and money on giving us 2 options to use one or the other it makes no since cause then you will have noobs new users to windows or computers in general get confused and be like well my brother or sister has windows 8 but it looks nothing like this i dont get it what is going on .


and as for change well Explain to me why we went from windows 3.1 to windows 95 same damn reason change is happening now because at some point change always happens 70 years from now do you think some damn tech geek is gonna ask Why he cant have the start Menu ... No he is not cause by then the whole start menu system even the start screen will have been replaced with something else that is not in the sight of current Microsoft employees .


i could just imaging the Bar Topic when the first first horseless carage arrived and what everyone siad ( oh pish posh why do i need a horseless carage when my Horse can get me ther just the same )

Just putting this out there.. what you're saying makes absolutely no sense.

A change that follows a natural evolution would be good. But the metro start screen is not the natural evolution of Windows on a desktop pc. It's microsoft forcing what they think we should be using onto us.

I've said this before but I'll use it as an example again. See the windows 7 task bar. It is the newest end result of a natural evolution from Windows 3.1 to 95, to 98, me, Xp, Vista, and then Windows 7. It remains constant yet changes. It's easily recognizable for what it is. Windows 8 metro start screen just throws everything out the window just for the sake of change. It's stupid.

[+TCLN Ryster]

I'm sorry, but when talking about intuitiveness based on familiarity to previous versions, you just can't use that argument with Windows 8. Windows 8 isn't an evolution of Windows 7, it's an entirely new OS platform. The "Desktop"'s similarity to the previous OS version is just that, a vague similarity. Windows 8 IS Metro. The Desktop is just a compatibility environment for legacy apps not written for metro.

When the very first iPhone came out, how many people instantly knew how to operate it and access all the functions on it? Not many, it took a bit of time, tutorials and advertisements for people to learn all the shortcuts (double tap home for example). Windows 8 is no different. Going into Windows 8 expecting it to just be an evolution of Windows 7 is the root cause of most of the arguments here. Just forget that it's Windows and treat it as a new product called MetrOS and you'll pick it up and learn it just fine. When Windows 95 launched, nobody knew anything about taskbars, start menus or desktop and it took people a while to adjust (you click Start to shut down? :-o). But now, that style of OS is the accepted norm for desktop operating systems. After 17 years it's time to try something different.

If you don't want to move onto something new, then don't. Just don't expect another Windows version in the future with the old Desktop, Start Menu, Taskbar interface paradigm. Like it or not, Windows 7 was the last OS in that particular breed.

And for the record, you people don't really think Microsoft would make a change as big as this without COPIOUS amounts of UI testing with a broad selection of users "off the street"... do you? They have entire buildings dedicated to UI research and consumer testing.