win8 Why Microsoft Refuses to Name the Windows 8 User Interface

[MarkusDarkus]

Did you see what you did there? :/

100% Intentional! :p

[BajiRav]

It's painfully obvious that any modern Windows interface is just plastered on top of classic and can peal off at any second. When an error occurs in Windows 7 you can see Aero revert to Basic or in some cases even all the way back to Classic. User Account Control dialog windows always appear in Basic, rather than Aero. As such these new interfaces never felt like a true integral part of Windows. Even though Microsoft disabled classic in Windows 8 and tried to redirect all calls to the old interface, it's still there.

Aqua on the other hand feels like a truly integral part of OS X; the one can't exist without the other. On OS X you'll never see a window without an Aqua border around it. You won't see the interface fail and revert back to something legacy. Ever. It just isn't possible. Note: I'm not talking about apps that run through some kind of virtualization or whatever.

Rationally I fully understand the concept of Windows 8 where the desktop runs as an app within Metro. It's secondary. Much like how Command Prompt in Windows 7 runs on the desktop and not the other way around. It doesn't change the feeling that Metro seems, once again, like something Microsoft stuck on top of the same old Windows in an effort to hide its true form.

I think that's because OS X has no concept of "legacy" or the crazy backwards compatibility you get with Windows. I am probably very wrong but my impression is Apple doesn't care much about backwards compatibility but instead gives importance to consistency whereas Microsoft simply has to do better job with backcompat. I wish they did a better job of polishing and streamlining a UI as much as you do but clearly Microsoft doesn't care.

This apparently isn't an issue on OS X despite the fact all Authentication windows are proper Aqua. Let's face it, it just confirms that Aero isn't as baked into Windows Vista/7 as it should have been. The sheer fact the entire mess has to revert back to some legacy protocol for security reasons is just ludicrous.

If OS X is drawing authentication Windows in user context then it doesn't have the same limitation. It's the way system is designed, can it be better designed? sure but again it depends on what the Windows team thought was more important. I won't be surprised if this was a result of combination of factors including driver instability*, security and backwards compatibility.

*something OS X doesn't need to worry about.

[.Neo]

I think that's because OS X has no concept of "legacy" or the crazy backwards compatibility you get with Windows. I am probably very wrong but my impression is Apple doesn't care much about backwards compatibility but instead gives importance to consistency whereas Microsoft simply has to do better job with backcompat. I wish they did a better job of polishing and streamlining a UI as much as you do but clearly Microsoft doesn't care.

We all like to pretend OS X suddenly dropped from the sky in 2001 as something brand new. However, it's not. OS X is based on NeXTSTEP which had its own interface, had a Platinum appearance similar to Mac OS 9 in its early days and seen multiple Aqua versions. Do you see any of that back? Nope. Nothing.

OS X Server 1.0

Apple does care about backward compatibility. They supported Classic up until 2007, came up with Rosetta to allow PPC apps to run natively (as far as the end user's concerned) on Intel and their crown achievement: Universal Binaries. First for Intel/PPC and later on also 32/64-bit. Microsoft on the other hand is still dicking around with different versions for everything. There comes a point though where the company needs to let go in order to move forward. As they should.

If OS X is drawing authentication Windows in user context then it doesn't have the same limitation. It's the way system is designed, can it be better designed? sure but again it depends on what the Windows team thought was more important. I won't be surprised if this was a result of combination of factors including driver instability*, security and backwards compatibility.

*something OS X doesn't need to worry about.

If Microsoft made sure Aero could be rendered through software from day one, l'm pretty sure driver instability and backwards compatibility wouldn't have been an issue. If I had to believe the Windows crowd drivers and compatibility is the excuse for just about everything. I'm not buying that, not to the degree some are trying to convince me of.

[Nazmus Shakib Khandaker]

Let me make it clear for those who are uninformed about how Windows 8 handles DWM (Aero).

UAC Prompt in Windows 8 runs in Aero

Unlike in Windows 7, no program can cause Aero (DWM) to be turned off in WIndows 8. Windows 8 will simply not revert to the basic theme!

That's UAC running in Aero in Windows 8 Consumer Preview

Is that clear?

[Eric Veteran]

Can we please discuss the topic? This thread is about what to call a user interface, not administrative prompts or security features.

[Nothing Here]

I just call it MS8 desktop now. Microsoft 8 desktop.

[OOOOOOOO]

Too much time on your hands ... :p

They surely want to force the brand name Windows, rather than another name. Windows is their premiere product. That's the reason. End of discussion :D

[.Neo]

I'll repeat here what I said in another thread. After months of careful consideration Microsoft finally came up with the definitive name for their new interface:

Metro UI, Windows 8 UI, Modern UI, Advertising UI

[BajiRav]

We all like to pretend OS X suddenly dropped from the sky in 2001 as something brand new. However, it's not. OS X is based on NeXTSTEP which had its own interface, had a Platinum appearance similar to Mac OS 9 in its early days and seen multiple Aqua versions. Do you see any of that back? Nope. Nothing.

Apple does care about backward compatibility. They supported Classic up until 2007, came up with Rosetta to allow PPC apps to run natively (as far as the end user's concerned) on Intel and their crown achievement: Universal Binaries. First for Intel/PPC and later on also 32/64-bit. Microsoft on the other hand is still dicking around with different versions for everything. There comes a point though where the company needs to let go in order to move forward. As they should.

If Microsoft made sure Aero could be rendered through software from day one, l'm pretty sure driver instability and backwards compatibility wouldn't have been an issue. If I had to believe the Windows crowd drivers and compatibility is the excuse for just about everything. I'm not buying that, not to the degree some are trying to convince me of.

And how many NeXTSTEP applications can OS X run today? My guess is zero whereas Windows will happily run applications from prior to Windows 95. My point was that Apple doesn't care about compatibility as much as Microsoft does or is probably forced to do because of their enterprise customers. They put backcompat ahead of everything else and that combined with their general apathy towards UI consistency results in this mess.

Video driver instability is one of the major reasons they had to move it in the user land (which is a better design as I understand).

[Brandon Live Veteran]

This apparently isn't an issue on OS X despite the fact all Authentication windows are proper Aqua. Let's face it, it just confirms that Aero isn't as baked into Windows Vista/7 as it should have been. The sheer fact the entire mess has to revert back to some legacy protocol for security reasons is just ludicrous.

That's not how it works.

The non-client area ("chrome") of a window is drawn by the window manager. UAC prompts by default show on the Secure Desktop, which did not support the compositing window manager (DWM) before Windows 8. So any windows displayed on the Secure Desktop used the old window manager, which could only render the Basic theme.

This has nothing to do with how "baked in" anything is. It was just a design decision that it wouldn't be worth the time of making the DWM work on the Secure Desktop (and solving certain challenges like performance of the desktop switch and/or memory usage), when the dialogs were expected to be rare and the old window management implementation needed to be kept around anyway (to support XP style drivers, among other things).

In Windows 8, we no longer support XP style drivers, and for several reasons it was untenable to continue to support the old non-composited window management implementation given the direction we've taken things. So now the DWM is always used, everywhere, including the Secure Desktop.

It is not uncommon for Windows (or other OSes) to support parallel implementations of certain components, particularly for compatibility reasons during transition periods. This doesn't make the newer component "less baked in" or in any way inferior. It's just an architectural decision that takes the reality of compatibility requirements and a finite schedule into account.

[~Johnny]

I think from a consumer point of view, just calling it the Windows UI makes sense. Doesn't bother them with any new buzz words (none of them have probably heard of Metro anyway), and it just makes them think that this is what Windows is now.

Plus, Metro was always a codename :p

[.Neo]

That's not how it works.

The non-client area ("chrome") of a window is drawn by the window manager. UAC prompts by default show on the Secure Desktop, which did not support the compositing window manager (DWM) before Windows 8. So any windows displayed on the Secure Desktop used the old window manager, which could only render the Basic theme.

This has nothing to do with how "baked in" anything is. It was just a design decision that it wouldn't be worth the time of making the DWM work on the Secure Desktop (and solving certain challenges like performance of the desktop switch and/or memory usage), when the dialogs were expected to be rare and the old window management implementation needed to be kept around anyway (to support XP style drivers, among other things).

In Windows 8, we no longer support XP style drivers, and for several reasons it was untenable to continue to support the old non-composited window management implementation given the direction we've taken things. So now the DWM is always used, everywhere, including the Secure Desktop.

It is not uncommon for Windows (or other OSes) to support parallel implementations of certain components, particularly for compatibility reasons during transition periods. This doesn't make the newer component "less baked in" or in any way inferior. It's just an architectural decision that takes the reality of compatibility requirements and a finite schedule into account.

It just gives a very strong impression of the whole thing being one layer slapped on top of another. The sheer fact the new interface can "fail" and revert to some legacy state makes it inferior compared to what I see on OS X. I haven't used Windows 8 for a very long time but even there I've seen an app break the desktop and a classic-ish window suddenly popped-up. Are you telling us after six years Microsoft is still transitioning the desktop interface? That said it's good to see Secure Desktop finally supporting DWM.

[Mr. Gibs]

Yeah I read that excuse before and all I think is: "On OS X you don't see Authentication windows suddenly appear in Platinum or whatever". For me it just confirms that Aero isn't an integral part of Windows to same degree as Aqua is on OS X. Quite frankly it comes across as a design flaw on Microsoft's part.

It's called secure desktop. Disable it and security prompts will show up in Aero.

The reason secure desktop exists is because no program (yes including Aero) can interfere with anything that happens within that prompt. That means a keylogger can't find out your password, mouse movements cannot be interfered with, fake password windows cannot open etc etc. Ctrl-alt-delete on login does a similar thing and that's probably where they got the idea from.

If Aero was enabled, the DWM process will have access to the UAC prompts and therefore opens up an attack vector.

OS X doesn't have this kindoff protection with it's password prompts.

[Nazmus Shakib Khandaker]

@.Neo I will simply state that while WIndows 8 is an engineering marval, its imprefections only reflect the imprefections of humanity. There is only so much you can do.

We should be surprised that Microsoft has been able to innovate so much in Windows in just three years. Think about it, new platform, new chip support, new user interface, new service integrations, fundimental changes in many parts of the code, new device and form factor support, better power management, handful of desktop upgrades, and so much more. To top it all of, all of these things have been added without making the OS more bloated than Windows 7. (In contrast, while Vista brought great new features, it also brought in its bloat). In fact, Windows 8 is snappier than Windows 7! All these in three years? Can you imagine the achievement here?

I recommend that you achieve something as big as this before complaining about its imprefections. Nothing that human do or create will be perfect, but What Windows 8 has shown is more than anyone could have imagined or asked for three years ago!

THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MINUTE.

[argonite]

If Aero was enabled, the DWM process will have access to the UAC prompts and therefore opens up an attack vector.

Except DWM does work with UAC prompts in Windows 8. So what's going on there?

[argonite]

@.Neo I will simply state that while WIndows 8 is an engineering marval, its imprefections only reflect the imprefections of humanity. There is only so much you can do.

You're talking as if consumers should be grateful to Microsoft for bringing us great software, even if it has faults.

I have to respectfully disagree (and for the record, I really like Windows 8). The consumer should not, at any point, feel indebted to someone that that they are paying to provide a good or service. They should expect quality, in exchange for money. They should be unsatisfied when they identify flaws, because they paid for those flaws.

[BajiRav]

You're talking as if consumers should be grateful to Microsoft for bringing us great software, even if it has faults.

I have to respectfully disagree (and for the record, I really like Windows 8). The consumer should not, at any point, feel indebted to someone that that they are paying to provide a good or service. They should expect quality, in exchange for money. They should be unsatisfied when they identify flaws, because they paid for those flaws.

he is like reverse Andrea Borman :|

[Nazmus Shakib Khandaker]

@billyea money doesn't bring everything. You can't expect impractical things even if you have billions of dollers. You can't just ask someone to go to jupitar and be mad because they can't even though you paid them. To expect what is beyond the scope of humaity or beyond what is realistically possible is redicilous. I don't care who you are or how much you want to pay me. If you expect too much for me and be unreasonable, sorry, but I rather not do business with you because I cannot satisfy you.

[Mr. Gibs]

Except DWM does work with UAC prompts in Windows 8. So what's going on there?

They've improved it.

DWM on 8 now runs under its own usergroup DWM-1 (on 7 it ran under user or system cant remember) but I'm not sure what privileges it has.

Secure desktop is totally different too. On 7 you could see open windows, apps etc in the background when a UAC prompt shows up. On 8 everything in the background just "disappears" and all you see is your wallpaper and the UAC prompt. And also Aero glass no longer exists in Windows 8 so this discussion is mute.

And also to be brutally honest you see the UAC prompt like once a week if at all (assuming all the apps you have were coded correctly and not calling system functions / using system APIs when they don't need them)? Is it really that big a deal to see the windows basic theme for all of 2 seconds?

They should be unsatisfied when they identify flaws, because they paid for those flaws.

Nothing in the world is perfect.

[~Johnny]

Seriously, it's not like someone hasn't already mentioned this - but please stick on topic.

[contextfree]

Actually the UAC prompt experience is something that's improved for me in Windows 8, the switch to the secure desktop happens instantly with no flicker or anything that I always saw in previous Windows versions.

[.Neo]

@.Neo I will simply state that while WIndows 8 is an engineering marval, its imprefections only reflect the imprefections of humanity. There is only so much you can do.

Windows 8 is not an engineering marvel. Far from it.

[Dashel]

Odd, UAC triggers seem to take longer at times for me. I think the 'faster' perception is because they toned down the 'dimming' effect and made it a separate layer.

[Brandon Live Veteran]

It just gives a very strong impression of the whole thing being one layer slapped on top of another. The sheer fact the new interface can "fail" and revert to some legacy state makes it inferior compared to what I see on OS X. I haven't used Windows 8 for a very long time but even there I've seen an app break the desktop and a classic-ish window suddenly popped-up. Are you telling us after six years Microsoft is still transitioning the desktop interface? That said it's good to see Secure Desktop finally supporting DWM.

You should never see a desktop/"classic" window in the new shell/apps. Desktop apps sometimes draw their own internal windows (i.e. some MDI apps) and will draw the frame themselves in a style meant to look like an old version of Windows. There's nothing the system can do about that. It doesn't know anything about what apps (or frameworks) decide to draw themselves.

[Nazmus Shakib Khandaker]

You should never see a desktop/"classic" window in the new shell/apps. Desktop apps sometimes draw their own internal windows (i.e. some MDI apps) and will draw the frame themselves in a style meant to look like an old version of Windows. There's nothing the system can do about that. It doesn't know anything about what apps (or frameworks) decide to draw themselves.

There are three problems with what you stated. First of all, let's talk about web browsers designed to run on WinRT. These browsers, what Microsoft documentations still refer to as "Metro Style enabled Desktop Browsers" as of this writing still heavily rely, as expected, on Win32. While IE10 does a great job at masking itself by hiding all desktop elements in the WinRT environment, not all "Metro Style enabled Desktop Browsers" do. Google chrome is the best example. That browser, when running in "metro Mode" (Sorry, I don't know how else to refer to it), you see desktop elements everywhere. For example, in Metro Chrome, you can open bookmark editor, which opens up a desktop Window . It is also possible to right-click the title bar and get menu options such as minimize, maximize, and close. My point is, not all browsers for Windows 8 will do a great job at masking the desktop elements (Firefox looks promising from the preview screenshots, though).

Secondly, you can still bring up the task manager in when running WinRT apps or when on the start screen. For those who want to try this, set task manager to always be on top. I personally like this, but I am just arguing your point that you don't see the desktop elements in WinRT/Metro/Modern/New shell/whatever MS wants to call it today. Furthermore, the power user menu in the bottom left corner opens a desktop style context menu not WinRT style ones. The same is true when right-clicking on WinRT apps from the task switcher or hot corner. This is true even when running an WinRT app. Finally crashing explorer.exe also crashes the start screen, the charms, and the switcher. The desktop and WinRT is still an integral part of Windows. Only conceptually they are not.

Thirdly, let's talk about MDI windows. Let's also recall Aero lite, a new Aero theme first revealed in the leaked Windows 8 builds back in early 2011. This theme existed in all of the previews, but has been hidden in RTM. (However, people did find ways to enable that theme back in Win8 RTM with a simple little trick). The theme is also in the Windows Server 2012. Anyway, that theme flattened the desktop controls, including MDI window frames. In the final Aero theme in RTM, Microsoft flattened most of the desktop UI controls, except MDI window frames. MDI Window frames still sport the Windows 7 Aero basic theme, which is one of the ugliest Windows themes, in my opinion. I really don't understand how this can be so easily missed. If anyone wants to see an MDI boarder, run Visual Studio 2012 and start a Windows Form Application project. The MDI window frame is flat in Aero lite, but Microsoft has missed it in the RTM theme. What an oversight. And yes, these MDI window frames are drawn by the operating system. I am not referring to custom drawn window frames.

Anyway, I am really happy with Windows 8. But the MDI and ribbon highlight issues are one of the few things bothering me.