Jump to content



Photo

Windows 8 sales dissapointing


  • Please log in to reply
287 replies to this topic

#196 FaeGiN

FaeGiN

    Neowinian

  • 6 posts
  • Joined: 17-August 10

Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:09

Microsoft Still in Denial
http://channel9.msdn...dc6a10b014cbe1e

..." indeed. Instead of fixing, they are playing the blame game. Countless of knowledgeable people (Windows experts and developers, not the usual anti-MS brigade) hammered them in the past twelve months about the very obvious issues with Windows 8, yet Redmond acted as if the whole town went through a self-hypnosis course. "La la, can't hear you!".
If the shock over the Windows 8 sales is indeed real and unexpected at MS HQ, then I am truly shocked." - wastingtimew​ithforums
..." It's a floor wax. No, it's a dessert topping. Microsoft's new whatever-the-F-it-is operating system is a confusing, Frankenstein's monster mix of old and new that hides a great desktop upgrade under a crazy Metro front-end. It's touch-first, as Microsoft says, but really it's touch whether you want it or not (or have it or not), and the firm's inability to give its own customers the choice to pick which UI they want is what really makes Windows 8 confounding to users. " - Paul Thurrott
..."


Seems to me like Thurrott is talking a bit of sense for once :woot: . Well maybe that's a bit harsh but I find his opinion in that article pretty much hits it on the head for me. So many of the problems with win8 are obvious. Yes I have it installed, well as dual boot and I can tell you I am on Windows 7 right now :)
It became too irritating, NOT trying to find how to do things but actually having to do them the win 8 way! I've had it installed since the first Releases and I just cannot like it. I've been using PC's, windows mostly for decades and this is the strangest OS I've seen from MS.
I don't think people will get used to this one and slowly accept it, then maybe go on to praise it. I can't see it as there are obvious problems with it, it isn't even like a Desktop PC OS.

I already went over this post at another point in the thread with someone else. Read that post and you will understand my point. ;)

Hehe OK I think I was too late to that party. :)


#197 scaramonga

scaramonga

    ME!

  • 2,462 posts
  • Joined: 21-April 03
  • Location: Bonnie Scotland
  • OS: Windows 7 Ultimate x64

Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:27

Seems to me like Thurrott is talking a bit of sense for once :woot: . Well maybe that's a bit harsh but I find his opinion in that article pretty much hits it on the head for me. So many of the problems with win8 are obvious. Yes I have it installed, well as dual boot and I can tell you I am on Windows 7 right now :)
It became too irritating, NOT trying to find how to do things but actually having to do them the win 8 way! I've had it installed since the first Releases and I just cannot like it. I've been using PC's, windows mostly for decades and this is the strangest OS I've seen from MS.
I don't think people will get used to this one and slowly accept it, then maybe go on to praise it. I can't see it as there are obvious problems with it, it isn't even like a Desktop PC OS.


Yup. Frankenstein would have been so proud :)

#198 NightScreams

NightScreams

    Neowinian

  • 262 posts
  • Joined: 16-October 12

Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:33

I don't think people will get used to this one and slowly accept it, then maybe go on to praise it.


wow, Deja Vu just hit me. Exact words I heard in the early nineties

#199 xWhiplash

xWhiplash

    Neowinian Senior

  • 1,613 posts
  • Joined: 07-March 08

Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:54

wow, Deja Vu just hit me. Exact words I heard in the early nineties


Except that was progress. Working on photoshop, I activate these damn invisible menus and it is really annoying. I know several people that still take 30 seconds to shut down because they still look for it in the Start Screen. After several seconds of searching, they say "Oh yeah I forgot, at work it is Start - Shut Down but now it is not when I get home".

They made a very big mistake moving the most critical things around for no reason. There is no reason why Shut Down could not be added to the start screen. Put it at the top right next to your name.

I do not see why people are saying the Start Menu HAD to be removed, yet we have MANY MANY applications like Start 8. Why couldn't Microsoft do the same thing? I bet you they will have to in Windows 9, 10, 11, whatever in order to get businesses to upgrade.

#200 Dot Matrix

Dot Matrix

    Neowinian Senior

  • 10,528 posts
  • Joined: 14-November 11
  • Location: Upstate New York
  • OS: Windows 8.1
  • Phone: Nokia Lumia 920

Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:13

Except that was progress. Working on photoshop, I activate these damn invisible menus and it is really annoying. I know several people that still take 30 seconds to shut down because they still look for it in the Start Screen. After several seconds of searching, they say "Oh yeah I forgot, at work it is Start - Shut Down but now it is not when I get home".

They made a very big mistake moving the most critical things around for no reason. There is no reason why Shut Down could not be added to the start screen. Put it at the top right next to your name.

I do not see why people are saying the Start Menu HAD to be removed, yet we have MANY MANY applications like Start 8. Why couldn't Microsoft do the same thing? I bet you they will have to in Windows 9, 10, 11, whatever in order to get businesses to upgrade.


They got moved, because that's just how it works. That's how things evolve. Also, that Start Menu was replaced because it was time for something better. The Start Screen is an introduction to an up and coming, dynamic world of computing. We have different PC form factors that are calling for a new OS, but at the same time, it's completely asinine to divide up our operating systems into a billion different properties. It's a support nightmare. Plus, it's been said there was technicalities supporting the old menu.

One thing never mentioned by detractors, is that ALL the Start Screen "replacements" are new code, and almost all don't support the live tiles Microsoft is trying to use. The old menu died because it needed updating, and didn't support Microsoft goals. They had to re-do the menu regardless if you think it needs saved or not. You certainly can't use it on tablets, or other touch hardware. You're never going to use the Kinect with it, and it was a pain in the ass to use on my HTPC, as I could never see the damn thing without increasing the DPI. The Start Screen changes all that. It's device neutral, finally allowing users to use their PCs without being hindered by archaic paradigms that should have died out years ago. There is nothing "better" about the menu, people are clinging to it because it's familiar. Give that time, and the feared transition to the Start Screen will diminish.

It's not coming back unless it can be used in a neutral way, across all devices, which it can not.

#201 +Brando212

Brando212

    Neowinian Senior

  • 6,646 posts
  • Joined: 15-April 10
  • Location: Omaha, NE
  • OS: Windows 8.1
  • Phone: Sony Xperia ZL, Nokia Lumia 925

Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:20

It's not coming back unless it can be used in a neutral way, across all devices, which it can not.

i don't know, i think this would work pretty well if something comes of it http://www.neowin.ne...t-menu-mock-up/

#202 +mram

mram

    Neowinian

  • 233 posts
  • Joined: 17-February 04

Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:21

They got moved, because that's just how it works. That's how things evolve. Also, that Start Menu was replaced because it was time for something better. The Start Screen is an introduction to an up and coming, dynamic world of computing. We have different PC form factors that are calling for a new OS, but at the same time, it's completely asinine to divide up our operating systems into a billion different properties. It's a support nightmare. Plus, it's been said there was technicalities supporting the old menu.

One thing never mentioned by detractors, is that ALL the Start Screen "replacements" are new code, and almost all don't support the live tiles Microsoft is trying to use. The old menu died because it needed updating, and didn't support Microsoft goals. They had to re-do the menu regardless if you think it needs saved or not. You certainly can't use it on tablets, or other touch hardware. You're never going to use the Kinect with it, and it was a pain in the ass to use on my HTPC, as I could never see the damn thing without increasing the DPI. The Start Screen changes all that. It's device neutral, finally allowing users to use their PCs without being hindered by archaic paradigms that should have died out years ago.

It's not coming back unless it can be used in a neutral way, across all devices, which it did not.


Tiles are a good thing, they combined gadgets, links, live metadata, etc. But obfuscating your entire desktop and presenting your start screen as a program-blocking gateway is not improvement. It's a great idea with shoddy implementation.

Try running a program and looking at live tile data at the same time. You can't. The reason is the start "menu/screen" is a data blocking implementation.

You can explain that none of this is metro-ized til the cows come home, but no matter what, I can have the best metro application ever, but I'll never be able to see the start screen AND that metro app at the same time. So for as cool as Start is, it's only fundamentally designed as a a viewport, something purely for tablets or phones, where you mostly single-task.

Now once you accept that nugget of truth, the rest of it breaks down. The OS is not designed for the device, or not adapted for the device. It's a shoehorn-fit. It doesn't have to be across all devices. Windows Server 2012 does not have IE10 metro-ized, it starts on the desktop, and it's the same code base. It most definitely does not need to be neutral across all devices.

#203 Dot Matrix

Dot Matrix

    Neowinian Senior

  • 10,528 posts
  • Joined: 14-November 11
  • Location: Upstate New York
  • OS: Windows 8.1
  • Phone: Nokia Lumia 920

Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:23

i don't know, i think this would work pretty well if something comes of it http://www.neowin.ne...t-menu-mock-up/


I wanted to help overcome some limitations of mouse/keyboard interface while keeping everything touch friendly and new.

Posted Image


How is this touch friendly?

#204 scaramonga

scaramonga

    ME!

  • 2,462 posts
  • Joined: 21-April 03
  • Location: Bonnie Scotland
  • OS: Windows 7 Ultimate x64

Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:30

How is this touch friendly?


Why would we want it to be? We run 'Desktops' :s :huh:

#205 xWhiplash

xWhiplash

    Neowinian Senior

  • 1,613 posts
  • Joined: 07-March 08

Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:30

How is this touch friendly?


Sigh....why does it need to be touch friendly on a standard desktop computer? It does not need to be the same damn OS on EVERY SINGLE THING.

And moving stuff around because "that is how things work". Really? So we could not have evolved AT ALL if the Shut Down button remained in the Start Screen somewhere? It HAD...HAD to be moved or else, computing would not evolve? It can be touch friendly for all I care, but it is really irritating watching people keep looking for the Shut Down button in the Start Screen. It should BE THERE.

#206 Dot Matrix

Dot Matrix

    Neowinian Senior

  • 10,528 posts
  • Joined: 14-November 11
  • Location: Upstate New York
  • OS: Windows 8.1
  • Phone: Nokia Lumia 920

Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:36

Why would we want it to be? We run 'Desktops' :s :huh:

Sigh....why does it need to be touch friendly on a standard desktop computer? It does not need to be the same damn OS on EVERY SINGLE THING.

And moving stuff around because "that is how things work". Really? So we could not have evolved AT ALL if the Shut Down button remained in the Start Screen somewhere? It HAD...HAD to be moved or else, computing would not evolve? It can be touch friendly for all I care, but it is really irritating watching people keep looking for the Shut Down button in the Start Screen. It should BE THERE.


I also run a desktop, and so does my room mate, who by the way, runs a touch enabled all in one. :) She's hates having to run hoops around the inefficient UI. You guys act like Start kills your mouse or something.

Perhaps you could try designing something that will be device neutral? The desktop-only stuff just doesn't work.

#207 +mram

mram

    Neowinian

  • 233 posts
  • Joined: 17-February 04

Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:36

How is this touch friendly?


With minor improvements it could be touch friendly.

It has the advantages of also having the following UX consistencies:
1. Start button is still there, it exists in phones and tablets.
2. Tile based system across all devices
3. Desktop is still there and present for all environments, making corporate adoption easier
4. Live Tile data still present while applications could be running (unless they are those insane fullscreen-only metro apps)

If there is one thing that I hate more than anything else with W8/WS2012 it's the idea of hitting a corner for "Start" ... because I usually have these sessions in a window. So I overshoot, and frankly on a windowed system it becomes a precision activity to hit the 10px-by-10px micro-spot on the screen to "start". Removing an icon for an activity is the absolute most ridiculous myopic thing to do.

Again, another example of inconsistent behavior (even phones have a start button), and lack of ease-of-use or "we only expect you to interface with our OS in a particular way" mode of thinking.

#208 seta-san

seta-san

    Neowinian Senior

  • 4,426 posts
  • Joined: 17-February 05

Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:36

Not everyone was born in this generation dude. You can't expect a 70 year old lady or man to understand something as technologically challenging as Windows 8.


it is confusing. And, no it's not because it's different. Every almost immediately understood iOS interface when it first came out with little to no training. The biggest problem with windows 8, and the start screen in general is that it's branded as a replacement for the start menu but it's functionally a second desktop.. or perhaps an eventual replacement for the desktop. Running two different paradigms in the same system makes it seem bi-polar.

#209 Lord Method Man

Lord Method Man

    Banned

  • 3,758 posts
  • Joined: 18-September 12

Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:40

The desktop-only stuff just doesn't work.


Odd, it's worked great for me for 20 years.

Windows 8? Not so much. I tried it. I tried to like it. I really wanted to, but the truth is the touch interface sucks on a desktop, so I gave up.

#210 xWhiplash

xWhiplash

    Neowinian Senior

  • 1,613 posts
  • Joined: 07-March 08

Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:44

Odd, it's worked great for me for 20 years.

Windows 8? Not so much. I tried it. I tried to like it. I really wanted to, but the truth is the touch interface sucks on a desktop, so I gave up.


Agreed, as I have said, I keep activating these damn hidden menus and bars when I work in Photoshop or am doing something productive. I will tell you, if Microsoft does not make it more desktop friendly again, businesses will start moving to a different platform or will stick with Windows 7 forever. It is just not friendly in a productive, business environment. Yes I use it on my computer and I am productive, but it is far from a friendly interface like Windows 7 is.

Again, for the millionth time, all (most) of us are asking is for some damn options. Microsoft should have kept the Start Menu for those that love it. And for people that like to use full screen development/design applications, there SHOULD be a damn option to turn off the stupid hidden menus and bars.

Just options....That is all I and everybody I know wants. If there are so many programs like Start 8 available, tell me why Microsoft could not develop their own, and have a check box IF THE USER WANTS TO USE IT, Why are options all of the sudden so horrible? When Apple does this, they are constantly being yelled at. But when Microsoft does this, it is okay?