sbauer Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Well, that's good. Since you can only count the number of times you've seen a WPF app, then that must make it true. At least this post was better than your last. "MVVM is overrated". Ok. Get some real dev experience and then come back when you're ready to have an intelligent conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingCrimson Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Well, that's good. Since you can only count the number of times you've seen a WPF app, then that must make it true. At least this post was better than your last. "MVVM is overrated". Ok. Get some real dev experience and then come back when you're ready to have an intelligent conversation. He doesn't understand MVVM, XAML, Blend, WPF. He rants against that which he fears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinN206 Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 It seems NaiveUser from MDL believes a form of Silverlight is the backend according to Windows 8 HTML5/javascript and HTML5/javascript serve a very small role in the frontend UI. Of course, this doesn't mean that MS can't change its mind about using HTML5/javascript since the last build leaked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulsiphon Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 WinForms, WPF, and HTML are not going anywhere yeah yeah, I know - but unless you work for MSFT and are in some position to know for sure, you're just tossing assumptions like everyone else in this thread. Your take has been noted. Me? I'm a contingency planner and when my livelihood looks to be taking a different path, I get interested...and speculative :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boz Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 God help us if anyone is idiot enough to believe that you can make enterprise and complex applications with HTML5 and that mess of a language called JS. And no, I don't think Silverlight or WPF or anything of sorts is going away.. Windows still has regular Windows mode for these apps.. It is reasonable to assume that HTML5/JS will be used to build mobile/web apps and other stuff.. I was never a big fan of Silverlight but to think that Silverlight is dead when its' the primary platform to build with for WP7 apps and that it won't be supported in Windows 8 is just, well, asinine. Secondly, if tile mode uses IE10 rendering engine I don't see why you couldn't build apps in Silverlight and they would still work in tile mode too. It's IE10 that does the rendering.. unless Microsoft is deciding to kill ALL plugins and have IE10 only work with HTML5/JS which I think is definitely crazy to think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George P Global Moderator Posted June 7, 2011 Global Moderator Share Posted June 7, 2011 From what I remember they said that these "immersive" apps that they showed in the Win8 demo were built using HTML5+JS+CSS, and they were basic full screen apps that didn't need the "desktop" to work. Poor wording and all I think what they were going for with this is to attracted the webdevs and show that you can make "apps" using those languages just like what ChromeOS is going for. SL/WPF/.NET aren't going anywhere, they're used heavily in other MS products. SL is big on WP7 yes but also Azure iirc. And Azure is the next big money maker from MS and they're pushing it hard (it's already being used more and more with time so it's paying off little by little). These are just my guesses, but in the end I expect that MS will try and get a single marketplace and a way to have apps that can run (if coded right) on the phone/tablet/desktop etc and pull a Apple basically. Why are they quiet about it? I dunno yet, we can sit here and guess till we're blue in the face but I figure they're going to talk it up even before the BUILD event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fornaks86 Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I think D9?s odd Windows 8 video, unofficial transcript says it all. "So this application is written with our new developer platform, which is based on HTML 5 and Javascript. People can write new applications for Windows using the things they are doing already on the Internet." was somehow edited off from the posted video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkenBeard Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Hahahahahaha ... haha ... ha ... Javascript ... Hahahahaha ... You seriously think that Javascript will be the main development language for Windows 8 ? Guys do you even have the slighest idea about what you're talking about ? Javascript ? Hahahahahaha. Hello Autodesk, please make Autocad using Javascript pleaaaase *_* Oh hi Google, can you please remake Chrome using Javascript ? Hell yeah dawg, we'll make a browser inside your browser so you can browse while you browse ! *sigh* PS : New immersive interface/TouchUI/Metroish Thingy != Windows 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon. Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Even if Microsoft aren't going have dedicated Silverlight applications on W8, could you just not embed a Silverlight control? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George P Global Moderator Posted June 7, 2011 Global Moderator Share Posted June 7, 2011 I think D9?s odd Windows 8 video, unofficial transcript says it all. "So this application is written with our new developer platform, which is based on HTML 5 and Javascript. People can write new applications for Windows using the things they are doing already on the Internet." was somehow edited off from the posted video. Ya, this says what I've been saying a bit better, the play here is to get web devs who are thinking of making ChromeOS apps to stick with Windows8 etc. They didn't talk about SL/.NET etc because they wanted to highlight that you can also use HTML5+JS etc to make webapps that will look and work like native apps on the new start screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky65 Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 HTML5 + Javascript for desktop apps? My first reaction was "you cannot be serious". I shudder to think of the performance of HTML5+JS. Do Microsoft still wonder why a a lot of commercial software is still written in C++? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George P Global Moderator Posted June 7, 2011 Global Moderator Share Posted June 7, 2011 HTML5 + Javascript for desktop apps? My first reaction was "you cannot be serious". I shudder to think of the performance of HTML5+JS. Do Microsoft still wonder why a a lot of commercial software is still written in C++? Desktop apps don't have to be, for lack of a better word, "heavy" all the time. Something like a torrent client for example, or a IM client, stuff you've used inside a browser but now outside etc. I don't expect huge apps at all and I don't know why people are taking this to extremes for no reason. This model fits any cloud apps though, as we've seen being done by other devs. Hell, doesn't adobe have a version of photoshop online? You could easily just move that UI out of a browser and into the new start screen directly as a "basic" version of the client while the full featured desktop "advanced" version would be like it is now and also kick you over to the desktop when you start it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ffMathy Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Here's a little list of official Microsoft apps built in WPF: Windows Live Messenger 2011 Microsoft Office 2010 (yes, every app in Microsoft Office is built in WPF) Other than that, my software company doesn't use anything else than WPF either. It was hard to get used to, but so much better now. So no, WPF is not dead, and Silverlight is definitely not dead either. Microsoft is at least moving towards WPF, and I believe that many developers will have to move to WPF as well soon. Windows Forms is outdated, and is not a proper environment for end-user programs that are not supposed to handle large amounts of data etc. Windows 8 will come with the .NET Framework 4.0 inbuilt, which I believe will make WPF blossom. Furthermore, the deployment system that will be used in the app-store is based upon WPF and Silverlight. Enough said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George P Global Moderator Posted June 7, 2011 Global Moderator Share Posted June 7, 2011 Here's a little list of official Microsoft apps built in WPF: Windows Live Messenger 2011 Microsoft Office 2010 (yes, every app in Microsoft Office is built in WPF) Other than that, my software company doesn't use anything else than WPF either. It was hard to get used to, but so much better now. So no, WPF is not dead, and Silverlight is definitely not dead either. Microsoft is at least moving towards WPF, and I believe that many developers will have to move to WPF as well soon. Windows Forms is outdated, and is not a proper environment for end-user programs that are not supposed to handle large amounts of data etc. Windows 8 will come with the .NET Framework 4.0 inbuilt, which I believe will make WPF blossom. Furthermore, the deployment system that will be used in the app-store is based upon WPF and Silverlight. Enough said. Isn't VS2010 WPF too or am I remembering it wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wongogue Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Isn't VS2010 WPF too or am I remembering it wrong? Also add Expression to that list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFH Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Isn't VS2010 WPF too or am I remembering it wrong? No, you're right VS2010 is built on WPF, as is the whole Expression-suite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgevella Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 No, you're right VS2010 is built on WPF, as is the whole Expression-suite? as is WebMatrix. And, just to mention an app that isn't Microsoft's, AutoCAD 2010 uses WPF as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neufuse Veteran Posted June 7, 2011 Veteran Share Posted June 7, 2011 He doesn't understand MVVM, XAML, Blend, WPF. He rants against that which he fears. I "dont understand MVVM" yet I know the overhead due to the amount of coding required for it on simple apps is ridiculous.... and that its not standardized to the point its own creator says it has flaws.... MS doesn't have a standardized model for it....there are code maintenance problems with large projects if something changes at the model level.... there aren't too many toolsets for it yet for quick developers... the model has duplication problems with the amount of code you need to produce all the bindings for your data scheme to be usable for large projects...... but yeah keep telling me I have no idea and am just scared of change..... seriously when you write apps you research what YOU need and use it, we found these things not to fit anything we do with large projects due to problems like this.... sure there are people that like it, but eventually with every model you run into problems.... WPF is going to eventually be melded into forms and it will be one thing again... MS is just taking its time doing this, but like I said there are very few commercial applications out there that use it... and those that do, only use it as a hosted controller, not an entire form...... visual studio for instance is WPF, YET they didn't write the entire UI in it, just the editor control. and some forms... they left a lot of it to native windows controls, which you can see if you start doing traces of the app while its running... Office is similar... there are very few whole app WPF applications... and even MS hasn't completely embraced it yet but they slowly push to make WPF one with forms... its going to eventually be the same thing in the end more then likely (who knows what the true roadmap says we cant see it, but there has been hints of it) and who ever said .NET is dieing to be replaced by Javascript, seriously? that's like killing MFC off... it's going no where Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OuchOfDeath Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Hopefully this isn't the case for Silverlight. Microsoft forking HTML5 to morph that into a replacement is a future I don't want to see. We will be thrown back into the 90s where HTML and CSS had all levels of propietary extensions. It will work against the current goal in Web Development of standards compliance and multi-browser support. This is a really long thread so I apologize if it has already been addressed(I have not read all 15 pages), but this very same issue stuck out to me when I read "Microsoft wants to fork HTML5". I thought of IE and its terrible non-standard implementation of the HTML spec, turning the web into a non-standards compliant nightmare. Rightfully so I immediately thought of this as a horrible idea, but then I realized that this fork is likely just for desktop applications for Windows 8, not web applications. Microsoft wants to expand on JS, CSS and HTML for use in the Windows 8 desktop to better fit the model of real Windows applications, and I don't see anything wrong with this. I may be wrong, but I believe mobile platforms such as Android and iOS already modify their languages to make them more suited for use as actual applications on their OS by exposing them to the OS-specific APIs. I don't see this as fragmenting HTML into the mess that it used to be years back, but simply as creating a separate platform for Windows 8 apps. HTML5 + Javascript for desktop apps? My first reaction was "you cannot be serious". I shudder to think of the performance of HTML5+JS. Do Microsoft still wonder why a a lot of commercial software is still written in C++? Javascript is becoming a very real and viable language for desktop applications. Look at Google Docs. Of course it will never replace performance-oriented languages such as C and C++ as they are miles ahead in that regard, however Javascript and HTML5 and their entirely cross-platform nature may replace other cross-platform oriented languages such as .Net and Java for the non-performance oriented applications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFH Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 WPF is going to eventually be melded into forms and it will be one thing again... Doubt it, Windows Forms is essentially a .NET-wrapper around the Win32-controls, nobody want to merge WPF with that mess? and who ever said .NET is dieing to be replaced by Javascript, seriously? that's like killing MFC off... it's going no where God I hate MFC, it would be great if the remove the MFC-headers for never versions? Keep compatibility with older versions as they know the memory adress of the function calls but prevent anyone from using it in new programs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkenBeard Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 1) You'll be able to generate Windows 8 binaries using any language that has a proper compiler for Windows. 2) The MetroUI (that's what i'll be calling the Metro-ish dashboard) is most probably just a sandbox with a rendering engine so you'll need to use HTML5/JS to take advantage of it (think HTA on steroids). 3) WPF ... of course you'll be able to use WPF in Windows 8 and of course you won't be able to do so inside the MetroUI. 4) Silverlight is the development platform for WP7 and there is no reason to think that it's not going to be supported inside the MetroUI. Again when you say Windows 8 it's very confusing. Windows 8 != MetroUI. Windows 8 is an OS, MetroUI is a rendering engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OuchOfDeath Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know MetroUI isn't actual code, but a UI guideline. It's a set of rules for developing your application's interface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Johnny Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Here's a little list of official Microsoft apps built in WPF: Windows Live Messenger 2011 Microsoft Office 2010 (yes, every app in Microsoft Office is built in WPF) No and No. Windows Live Messenger 2011 uses Direct2D and DirectWrite (Along with most of the rest of WLE), not WPF, which is why it can't run on XP. And Office is mostly entirely C++ - no WPF, no Direct2D, no DirectWrite. Notable Microsoft Software written in WPF: Microsoft Expression Studio - Some of the them (Design, Web) only have WPF UI's, with underlying C++ code Visual Studio 2010 Microsoft Web Matrix WPF has a very powerful, and very nice UI framework, but it really does need a bit of performance tuning, a bit of additional functionality added in (Why still no folder picker?!). With all the work Microsoft are doing improving IE's rendering and javascript engines performance, I wonder why they don't get a few teams dedicated to doing the same on .NET runtime? Sure there's no real competition, I'm sure there's a lot of room for improvement in there, and everyone would surely appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFH Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 (I have not read all 15 pages) More like 5 pages :) I may be wrong, but I believe mobile platforms such as Android and iOS already modify their languages to make them more suited for use as actual applications on their OS by exposing them to the OS-specific APIs. Nobody - maybe apart from webOS - uses HTML for app-development. iOS is all about native apps (Objective-C, C++,?), Android is highly focused on Java (Dalvik-VM), WP7 is essentially nothing but .NET (more precisly C? and VB.net + XNA and Silverlight). I don't see this as fragmenting HTML into the mess that it used to be years back? Noone in this thread actually seems to care about them forking HTML, it's all about .NET? Personally I think it's a bad idea, IMHO HMTL was never suited for rich desktop applications? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkenBeard Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know MetroUI isn't actual code, but a UI guideline. It's a set of rules for developing your application's interface. For lack of a better name I'm using MetroUI as a shorcut for the Metro-ish dashboard that's intended to be the default UI in Windows 8 :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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