Windows 8 UI Is Chromeless

[remixedcat]

"immersive"=babied down and touch centered. it's a marketing ploy and nothing more.

[MFH]

This isn't change for change's sake; this is change for the sake of major improvement.

I see not one improvement with that UI?

Yes. Common sense should tell you that if one doesn't have to check the Facebook website many times a day because their updates are pushed to them, they will save time and be able to use that time for work instead.

How about working instead of wasting time at facebook?

If notifications are pushed to people and displayed on one of their screens

1. Problem: the majority of users has 1 screen?

they don't have to navigate to that service specifically many times a day; thus, they will save time, and have more time to do work.

2. Problem: as the majority has only 1 screen they will have to navigate to the tiles with the info to check if there has been pushed an update?

Windows Live Mail also does not display a tile that is always on view. It displays an overlay in the icon on the taskbar (that doesn't even say who the new email was from or the subject of the email), and it displays a notification for a few seconds.

Yep that's what I want, I get the info that there is a new mail, but I still have all my attention on my current task?

If one misses the notification, one has to go into the app to see the update.

Wrong! The notification stays there until you read the mail?

The app also only caters for emails and doesn't display the new RSS feed

ever heard of RSS Reader? It's been there as a gadgte since Vista ? Just to tell you: Gadgets are always there and no matter how many programs you have opened, you can always peak on them? (WIN+SPACE)

I'm talking about all of this information displayed to the user without the need for any buttons to be pressed or any apps to be opened

And still you have to navigate to this screen all the time to check for updates, where's the major improvement?!

You don't know that they won't.

You have any idea? Microsoft can't force anyone to follow their guidelines for at least the following reasons:

1. As Win8 is a major departure, companies can easily say they won't support it?

2. In case Microsoft tries to force anybody they will get legal problems for not allowed business practices?

3. Companies don't follow Microsofts latest fad blindly

You don't know how they could and would work, but I'm sure Microsoft has thought of, or will think of, ways to either develop such apps so they run well under the new immersive experience, or so that the experience when using such apps is as immersive as possible so that there will not always be this divide between the immersive experience and the experience when running these "high-information density" apps.

You don't really believe that?

[MFH]

You're assuming, and expecting, which is the problem you have in regard to your views on Windows 8. None of us know exactly what Windows 8 will provide, yet you assume and expect, rather than simply speculate and wait.

Funny how you accuse me of assuming :) You are assuming that?

?Microsoft has thought about X, Y, Z.

?the UI works with any kind of program.

?the user want to get push informations from stuff like facebook to be integrated in the OS.

?the new UI will replace the classic shell within a few years.

?the new UI really works well without touch input.

?the new UI increases productivity.

?Microsoft can force anybody to follow their design.

?

And the list goes on and on.

an the list goes on and on.

The only thing I've heard from you is that you believe this and that and people like me are too negative towards that UI, yet you still offer no reason why we should feel different and why you are so awfully optimistic about it!

[Calum Veteran]

I see not one improvement with that UI?

You haven't even used it yet, and you don't know even half of the new features :rolleyes: This is the problem with your current views on Windows 8.

How about working instead of wasting time at facebook?

:rolleyes: I'm talking about when not at work; I'm clearly talking about using a PC for home use.

1. Problem: the majority of users has 1 screen?

2. Problem: as the majority has only 1 screen they will have to navigate to the tiles with the info to check if there has been pushed an update?

This isn't a problem for those who have more than one screen; thus, it isn't a problem. The majority of users may only have one screen, but that doesn't mean Microsoft cannot provide benefits to those of us who have more than one screen when those benefits don't hinder users who only have one screen :rolleyes: The fact they only have one screen means they are not losing out on anything other than what they could have if they opted to purchase another screen. Microsoft can only do what they can do with the screen sizes people have. Yes, the majority of users won't be able to see these updates by just looking at another screen, but all they have to do is press the Windows key on their keyboard, or click the Start button, and they will still see every single update there straight away. This is still better than what they currently have to do if they wish to quickly see updates from all of their services. In regard to how Gadgets could do this, please see my response below.

Yep that's what I want, I get the info that there is a new mail, but I still have all my attention on my current task?

And that's what it appears we would get with this new Start Screen, except we'd get it for all the services we'd like to be informed about in a consistent manner, and not just email. We'd still be able to get these notifications and maintain our attention on our current task, even those with only one screen (likely).

Wrong! The notification stays there until you read the mail?

You are wrong. I referred to the icon overlay as the icon overlay not the notification. I referred to the popup notification as the notification; the popup notification only stays there for a few seconds. The icon overlay doesn't display all of the information that the Windows 8 live tile does, so you cannot compare them; for that reason, I assumed you were talking about the popup notification that is only displayed for a few seconds.

Reply continued in a subsequent post; there are apparently too many quote blocks in this reply, so I had to post the rest in another. . . .

[remixedcat]

still rainmeter does everything the start screen does and then some.

[Calum Veteran]

ever heard of RSS Reader? It's been there as a gadgte since Vista ? Just to tell you: Gadgets are always there and no matter how many programs you have opened, you can always peak on them? (WIN+SPACE)

I understand exactly how Gadgets work, and I understand and appreciate Aero Peek; however, there are some problems with you comparing Gadgets to the apparent capabilities of the Start Screen. There isn't currently a gadget for every single service some of us users care about because Gadgets has never been that popular a feature. Not only that, but different gadgets don't follow the same design style, so it all doesn't look great; every tile on the Start Screen is consistent with the immersive design style. Seeing as the new application model most likely allows developers to easily take advantage of live tiles, it's highly likely there will be immersive apps for the services users care about.

And still you have to navigate to this screen all the time to check for updates, where's the major improvement?!

Not if you have more than one screen! Furthermore, as I have pointed out above, this would still provide the user with one central location to see all updates by just pressing one keyboard key or clicking the mouse once. We don't even know how Microsoft are implementing this. It's highly likely they'll include some kind of inbuilt notifications system that informs us of new notifications via popup messages, and it's also possible they'll include an Aero Peek type feature to allow us to peek at the Start Screen.

You have any idea? Microsoft can't force anyone to follow their guidelines for at least the following reasons:

Yet they follow Microsoft's Windows Phone design guidelines. . . .

1. As Win8 is a major departure, companies can easily say they won't support it?

Those companies wouldn't do that to their users. Their users might switch to a service that does support Windows 8's immersive concept well.

2. In case Microsoft tries to force anybody they will get legal problems for not allowed business practices?

As I have pointed out above, no company appears to have problems following Windows Phone's design guidelines. You suggested that is because they only use one development technology or something, but the new application model will be based off of HTML, CSS, and JavaScript (I think JavaScript is included in this); it is one development technology/model from what we've heard. Either way, I'm confident people will follow these guidelines if Microsoft enforce them in the same way they've enforced the Windows Phone ones.

3. Companies don't follow Microsofts latest fad blindly

They don't, but they often recognise how users can be benefited, and that is why they would take advantage of this new application development model.

You don't really believe that?

Of course I do. It would be foolish of Microsoft to not consider those type of applications.

[Calum Veteran]

Funny how you accuse me of assuming :) You are assuming that?

?Microsoft has thought about X, Y, Z.

?the UI works with any kind of program.

?the user want to get push informations from stuff like facebook to be integrated in the OS.

?the new UI will replace the classic shell within a few years.

?the new UI really works well without touch input.

?the new UI increases productivity.

?Microsoft can force anybody to follow their design.

?

And the list goes on and on.

an the list goes on and on.

You should read my posts properly. I've been careful to only speculate rather than assume or expect. I have never assumed any of these things, I have only speculated (used words like "possibly" and "likely"). In terms of the users wanting that, I don't need to speculate about me wanting that, and I am a user; seeing as I really want that, I can speculate that other users may want those features as well.

The only thing I've heard from you is that you believe this and that and people like me are too negative towards that UI, yet you still offer no reason why we should feel different and why you are so awfully optimistic about it!

I've offered a couple of reasons, but you still refuse to properly read my posts. Here, I'll reiterate them again (but I am getting sick of you not reading my posts): 1) We haven't heard about half of the features this new immersive interface provides; Microsoft have mentioned hardly anything about the new interface. 2) You haven't used the new interface or given it a chance.

still rainmeter does everything the start screen does and then some.

You do not know this! Why do you continue to assume what the new Start Screen will be like when Microsoft have told us all hardly anything about it?

[remixedcat]

MS is doing a crap job at showing us what it really can do and it'll bite them in the end.

[Calum Veteran]

At least aero and luna had the same layout.... aero and metro are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.

the only difference between aero and luna was the aesthetics, colors, and the button textures and transperancy... the rest of the UI was the same and the elements were in the same places.

metro is completly different.

Windows 8's user interface design is not called "Metro". It utilises the Metro design language, but Microsoft are referring to it as "the immersive experience". It makes sense to change the whole thing if it can be improved, and that is why Microsoft have done it. It sounds like you're implying Windows should always have the same layout even if it can be improved :blink:

"immersive"=babied down and touch centered. it's a marketing ploy and nothing more.

It is not touch-centered! Microsoft have claimed it works just as well with a keyboard and mouse, so we cannot reasonably disagree with that until we are able to try it out for ourselves!

MS is doing a crap job at showing us what it really can do and it'll bite them in the end.

There are reasons they haven't given us more information! They've already told us they'll tell us everything at BUILD in September, and there are reasons for that!

[remixedcat]

yeah but in the video the guy seemed to avoid the laptop the most... the one without touch... hey just did a couple things so quickly like he knew it wasn't good or something... and using keystrokes instead of touch on a non touch device with a touch UI is strange and not very productive.

so it it's natural KB and mouse Ui it's touch optimized.

[Calum Veteran]

yeah but in the video the guy seemed to avoid the laptop the most... the one without touch... hey just did a couple things so quickly like he knew it wasn't good or something... and using keystrokes instead of touch on a non touch device with a touch UI is strange and not very productive.

so it it's natural KB and mouse Ui it's touch optimized.

The fact they didn't spend much time with the nontouchscreen laptop means nothing. Microsoft's main focus this year is going to be trying to beat the sales of the iPad, so they have made great measures to ensure Windows 8 runs excellently on tablets and is optimised to work well on tablet devices; however, they will have also ensured it works just as well on nontouchscreen desktops and laptops. You suggest he didn't spend much time on it because "he knew it wasn't good or something" but do you realise just how ridiculous that sounds? If Microsoft knew it didn't work well on those devices, they wouldn't release it for those devices. He wouldn't have not demoed it as much due to it not working well with nontouchscreen laptops because Microsoft have confirmed they will release it for nontouchscreen laptops; people would find out eventually that it doesn't work well on them, if it didn't, but it's highly likely it will.

[cooky560 Veteran]

What scares me mostly about this is the fact that it looks like I can only have 2 apps running at once, and then they have to be tiled, that does not agree with my work flow at all. Until this is made clearer whether its possible to have multiple (typically 10 or 20+) apps on the screen at once with variable dimensions (as has been an excellent windows feature since 3.1!) I probably won't be buying

[remixedcat]

The fact they didn't spend much time with the nontouchscreen laptop means nothing. Microsoft's main focus this year is going to be trying to beat the sales of the iPad, so they have made great measures to ensure Windows 8 runs excellently on tablets and is optimised to work well on tablet devices; however, they will have also ensured it works just as well on nontouchscreen desktops and laptops. You suggest he didn't spend much time on it because "he knew it wasn't good or something" but do you realise just how ridiculous that sounds? If Microsoft knew it didn't work well on those devices, they wouldn't release it for those devices. He wouldn't have not demoed it as much due to it not working well with nontouchscreen laptops because Microsoft have confirmed they will release it for nontouchscreen laptops; people would find out eventually that it doesn't work well on them, if it didn't, but it's highly likely it will.

but if they were so confident they would have shown it longer in this VERY IMPORTANT video. The guy seemed to also look awkward using it and I can feel his lil bit of nervousness. he was rushing to hide it... but he cuddled the hell outta that first glassy nice tablet.

[Zain Adeel]

What scares me mostly about this is the fact that it looks like I can only have 2 apps running at once, and then they have to be tiled, that does not agree with my work flow at all. Until this is made clearer whether its possible to have multiple (typically 10 or 20+) apps on the screen at once with variable dimensions (as has been an excellent windows feature since 3.1!) I probably won't be buying

THIS!!!

this is my ONLY problem with this UI.

IF...

just my idea to microsoft.

for power users...

Make it like this. START SCREEN ..................... and APP SCREEN

when u click an app.. it goes to the app screen which is over a wallpaper of ur choice and ONLY THAT.. nothing else.

THE APP is free to size.. but without borders.. Very clean.. ill make a mockup or something.

And whatever app u run.. it will move from the start screen to the app screen and you can move it place it whereever you want and size it however you wish. And

when you close the app. And run it next time.. It will open in exact size and position but in the APP SCREEN.. this is for desktop. For tablet.. you may stick to the SNAP and GRID system :)

this will be YUMMY TREAT FOR ME!!! if they have planned something like this. to check time or notifications ill just press start button and it will go to the Start Screen..

and press start again it will go to App screen and ill be back to work again :)

[Calum Veteran]

but if they were so confident they would have shown it longer in this VERY IMPORTANT video. The guy seemed to also look awkward using it and I can feel his lil bit of nervousness. he was rushing to hide it... but he cuddled the hell outta that first glassy nice tablet.

You can't go off those evaluations of the video when determining whether Windows 8 will be usable or not; your suggestion is ridiculous. You need to hear more about it, and it's likely you'll have to actually use it, in order to determine whether it's usable or not. He didn't look uncomfortable using it to me, and there may be a reason they didn't show it for longer. As I have pointed out, their main focus will be to compete with the iPad and other tablets, so it makes sense they'd show those demonstrations for much longer.

What scares me mostly about this is the fact that it looks like I can only have 2 apps running at once, and then they have to be tiled, that does not agree with my work flow at all. Until this is made clearer whether its possible to have multiple (typically 10 or 20+) apps on the screen at once with variable dimensions (as has been an excellent windows feature since 3.1!) I probably won't be buying

You have 10 or 20 apps open on one screen at the same time? :blink: How? What applications are these?

[Zain Adeel]

ok leave 20 apps..

what about 4 or 5 apps??

most of us do that many..

how are we supposed to do that on this new UI??

for me i have at most 3 or 4 apps..

but guess what..

there are plenty of WINDOWS on display..

like 2 or 3 belonging to IE9

then 2 or 3 belonging to FOLDERS OPENED...

and one photoshop.. one media player for a tv show ... and thats about it..

but how will i able to do this in the new UI??

if they can pull this off.. i may never go the AERO way ever again :)

but for this they will have to get rid of the snap system or grid system and as i mentioned in my previous post... make it like that..

and i personally think microsoft been very slow with the build videos.. i think a new video every week wouldve been awesome. As they have 500 new features right? or was that for WP7 mango?? :s any way.. 2 new features per week wouldve been awesome!!..

[Calum Veteran]

ok leave 20 apps..

what about 4 or 5 apps??

most of us do that many..

how are we supposed to do that on this new UI??

for me i have at most 3 or 4 apps..

but guess what..

there are plenty of WINDOWS on display..

like 2 or 3 belonging to IE9

then 2 or 3 belonging to FOLDERS OPENED...

and one photoshop.. one media player for a tv show ... and thats about it..

but how will i able to do this in the new UI??

if they can pull this off.. i may never go the AERO way ever again :)

but for this they will have to get rid of the snap system or grid system and as i mentioned in my previous post... make it like that..

and i personally think microsoft been very slow with the build videos.. i think a new video every week wouldve been awesome. As they have 500 new features right? or was that for WP7 mango?? :s any way.. 2 new features per week wouldve been awesome!!..

Do you really have that many applications on one screen at once? Usually, when using two screens, I only tend to have one application open on both screens, unless I am watching a video on one screen and I have work to do on another; if I am watching a video or playing something on Zune on one of my screens and I have work to do, I utilise the Aero Snap feature and place 2 windows side-by-side. I have never needed more than 2 apps shown on one screen though, and I imagine the majority use Windows in the same way I do, even those with only one monitor. Of course, I have many applications open, but the majority are minimised until I require them.

[remixedcat]

I often have 5 apps PER SCREEN open.

[MFH]

[1] You haven't even used it yet, and you don't know even half of the new features :rolleyes:

[2] :rolleyes: I'm talking about when not at work; I'm clearly talking about using a PC for home use.

[3] This isn't a problem for those who have more than one screen; thus, it isn't a problem.

[4] Yes, the majority of users won't be able to see these updates by just looking at another screen, but all they have to do is press the Windows key on their keyboard, or click the Start button, and they will still see every single update there straight away.

[5]I referred to the popup notification as the notification; the popup notification only stays there for a few seconds.

[1] The real problem is that you seem to consider this UI to be the best idea since sliced bread. You are so convinced that this UI is great, you can't even understand that people that have different use-cases don't agree with you.

[2] Too bad than that Windows is heavily used in the workplace and that there a people that work at home?

[3] So the majority of users has a worse experience - sounds like a really great plan?

[4] You mean: if they pan around as the tiles are way to big to showcase all updates on a single screen?

[5]What popup notification? Weren't we talking about Windows Live Mail?

[1] Gadgets has never been that popular a feature.

[2] Not if you have more than one screen!

[3] Yet they follow Microsoft's Windows Phone design guidelines. . . .

[4] Those companies wouldn't do that to their users. Their users might switch to a service that does support Windows 8's immersive concept well.

[5] ?but the new application model will be based off of HTML, CSS, and JavaScript (I think JavaScript is included in this); it is one development technology/model from what we've heard.

[1] See developers don't just jump to the next "big thing"?

[2] As you have already pointed out: Microsoft developers for the average user. But than it seems kinda silly to develop a UI that's not perfectly fit for those people.

[3] Where's the choice in WP7? You can only use XNA and Silverlight -> developers have no option to use anything else. Opposed to the PC they can't use other ui toolkits.

[4] Yes they would! They already do! Just take a look at all those OSS programs, only the minority of those follows any guideline from Microsoft! And they never will, because they give a crap about them!

[5] Honestly: Don't get me started on this development platform that from what we know seems to lack support for C++ and .NET?

[1]Windows 8's user interface design is not called "Metro".

[2]It is not touch-centered!

[1] Putting lipstick on a pig doesn't change the fact that it's a pig?

[2] They called it a "touch first UI" -> Touch comes first -> any other input -> second == not major == not perfectly designed for. Just like Win7 has a "touch second UI" -> Touch is supported but most users don't wanna go there?

You suggest he didn't spend much time on it because "he knew it wasn't good or something" but do you realise just how ridiculous that sounds?

Actually if you've seen a lot of marketing presentations - not only on W8 - you would know that that's a common pattern. If you are supposed to show all use-cases of a program, but know which one are rather weak, you will spend as little time as possible on them and focus on those that showcase how great your product is.

[1] Do you really have that many applications on one screen at once?

[2] Usually, when using two screens, I only tend to have one application open on both screens?

[1] Yes I do!

[2] Seems like you are not really multitasking?

I have never needed more than 2 apps shown on one screen though, and I imagine the majority use Windows in the same way I do, even those with only one monitor. Of course, I have many applications open, but the majority are minimised until I require them.

Too bad than that a lot of professionals actually do need more than 2 programs at the same time, right? Minimizing is a thing of the past, there's no reason to do it?

[spenser.d]

Do you really have that many applications on one screen at once? Usually, when using two screens, I only tend to have one application open on both screens, unless I am watching a video on one screen and I have work to do on another; if I am watching a video or playing something on Zune on one of my screens and I have work to do, I utilise the Aero Snap feature and place 2 windows side-by-side. I have never needed more than 2 apps shown on one screen though, and I imagine the majority use Windows in the same way I do, even those with only one monitor. Of course, I have many applications open, but the majority are minimised until I require them.

At work I'll easily have two to three apps on each of two screens a lot of the time (and sometimes more). Not knocking W8 interface (I love it), but situations exist where there will be plenty of apps open all of the time (my situation is common where I work).

[Tech Star]

Funny how you accuse me of assuming :) You are assuming that?

?Microsoft has thought about X, Y, Z.

?the UI works with any kind of program.

?the user want to get push informations from stuff like facebook to be integrated in the OS.

?the new UI will replace the classic shell within a few years.

?the new UI really works well without touch input.

?the new UI increases productivity.

?Microsoft can force anybody to follow their design.

?

And the list goes on and on.

an the list goes on and on.

The only thing I've heard from you is that you believe this and that and people like me are too negative towards that UI, yet you still offer no reason why we should feel different and why you are so awfully optimistic about it!

Dude your assuming too. Everyone here is ASSUMING. No one really knows, just like how you don't know if it will work. We should wait for more tech demos before we dismiss Windows 8 entirely.

As others have said, the only thing that worries me only being able to run 2 apps side by side from the start menu. On my desktop I would have 1-4 open at a time and that worked perfectly for me. I am excited to get more information about Windows 8 because the new start menu sounds like/looks like its going to save me A LOT of time. :yes:

@remixedcat, you are a troll. In every topic I see your posts in you troll. You give no justifications for your supposed reasons and just spout off bs without knowing any facts. You are close to being the first on my ignore list.

[MFH]

Dude your assuming too. Everyone here is ASSUMING.

Yes, but opposed to Calum I'm not accusing anyone for assuming. For me it seems like Calum considers only his assumptions valid, 'cause he's that eager to dismiss all those assumptions that are opposed to his?

BTW: Calum never uses more than 2 programs on the same screen side by side and even thinks about wasting a whole screen just for the notifications through tiles and how that would improve his productivity on facebook? Furthermore Calum has such a strong believe in Microsoft it's disgusting - seems he's the only person in the world that to date was never burned by them?

[Calum Veteran]

Yes, but opposed to Calum I'm not accusing anyone for assuming. For me it seems like Calum considers only his assumptions valid, 'cause he's that eager to dismiss all those assumptions that are opposed to his?

BTW: Calum never uses more than 2 programs on the same screen side by side and even thinks about wasting a whole screen just for the notifications through tiles and how that would improve his productivity on facebook? Furthermore Calum has such a strong believe in Microsoft it's disgusting - seems he's the only person in the world that to date was never burned by them?

I said it's fine to make logical assumptions. If we disagree on what is logical, then what can be done? You have been making illogical assumptions. You appear to believe this user interface is unusable even though Microsoft have told us very little about it; they haven't told us enough for us to conclude whether it is usable or not. We need to wait until September when we hear more, and we might have to wait until we can try it.

I have never been burned by Microsoft. I don't have a "strong belief" in them at all, I just don't assume they're lying when I have no reason to assume they are. Yes, I don't use more than 2 programs side-by-side but that doesn't make me any less of a "power user" as you like to call yourself. We just use Windows differently. I don't need to have more than 2 programs open on one screen because I have found the most productive environment for me as a developer. You do, so Microsoft should cater for your use case; however, they haven't yet said they will not.

I don't have time to reply to all of this any more, so I'm out. None of us know how usable Windows 8 will be on a desktop or laptop with a mouse and keyboard; those of you who assume it will be unusable already appear to be beyond help, and I'm not going to convince you to give it a fair chance, so I'm not going to waste my time any longer.

MFH, I hope you also decide to actually give Windows 8 a chance; wait until you hear the facts and try it out.

[Ayepecks]

I said it's fine to make logical assumptions. If we disagree on what is logical, then what can be done? You have been making illogical assumptions. You appear to believe this user interface is unusable even though Microsoft have told us very little about it; they haven't told us enough for us to conclude whether it is usable or not. We need to wait until September when we hear more, and we might have to wait until we can try it.

I have never been burned by Microsoft. I don't have a "strong belief" in them at all, I just don't assume they're lying when I have no reason to assume they are. Yes, I don't use more than 2 programs side-by-side but that doesn't make me any less of a "power user" as you like to call yourself. We just use Windows differently. I don't need to have more than 2 programs open on one screen because I have found the most productive environment for me as a developer. You do, so Microsoft should cater for your use case; however, they haven't yet said they will not.

I don't have time to reply to all of this any more, so I'm out. None of us know how usable Windows 8 will be on a desktop or laptop with a mouse and keyboard; those of you who assume it will be unusable already appear to be beyond help, and I'm not going to convince you to give it a fair chance, so I'm not going to waste my time any longer.

MFH, I hope you also decide to actually give Windows 8 a chance; wait until you hear the facts and try it out.

So what is your definition of logical? Because I just looked at this thread after a while away and it seems like you're making a lot of illogical assumptions and not accepting logical assumptions. Such as, for instance, the fact that Microsoft has already said HTML5 and Javascript was going to be their new environment for the Start screen applications, but you got upset because they didn't say that was the only programming language(s) of the new Start screen (which, if it wasn't the only method, why would they have only mentioned it?).

Even if you take into account all the panic that comment stirred, it was because Silverlight developers were angry because they thought their platform was being abandoned. No one honestly thinks the Start screen is going to support what some people in these topics are coining "legacy apps" (which is an extremely laughable term, given that "legacy apps" are basically anything not written in HTML5 and Javascript, or some other similar languages; not C++ or anything like that), like you implied.

Given everything that's been revealed and heavily rumored on Neowin, Winrumors, Winsupersite, etc, you're making a lot of illogical assumptions (or simply saying 'oh, let's wait and see' when something's already been directly implied) from what I've even just quickly glanced over.

Again, I think some people are singing praising over every aspect of Windows 8 for no reason. Folks, it's OK not to find everything Microsoft does absolutely OMGWTF amazing. If you honestly have no concerns about Windows 8 whatsoever, I think you're either a) a Microsoft employee or b) lying to yourself. It's a major change to every aspect of the OS. If nothing worries you, you have the most accepting response to major change I've ever witnessed in my entire life.

Am I anticipating Windows 8? Absolutely. Do I love Metro? Absolutely. Am I extremely concerned about how this is going to impact "power" users? You bet your ass I am.

[Calum Veteran]

So what is your definition of logical? Because I just looked at this thread after a while away and it seems like you're making a lot of illogical assumptions and not accepting logical assumptions. Such as, for instance, the fact that Microsoft has already said HTML5 and Javascript was going to be their new environment for the Start screen applications, but you got upset because they didn't say that was the only programming language(s) of the new Start screen (which, if it wasn't the only method, why would they have only mentioned it?).

Even if you take into account all the panic that comment stirred, it was because Silverlight developers were angry because they thought their platform was being abandoned. No one honestly thinks the Start screen is going to support what some people in these topics are coining "legacy apps" (which is an extremely laughable term, given that "legacy apps" are basically anything not written in HTML5 and Javascript, or some other similar languages; not C++ or anything like that), like you implied

They didn't have much time during these demonstrations. The reason they may have only mentioned HTML5 and JavaScript apps could be because they are the new ones. They only mentioned them; they didn't go into detail. It's very possible .NET Framework and Silverlight apps will still be able to be developed for the new, immersive experience, but you and others are assuming this won't be the case before Microsoft have even detailed their plans for developers. As I say, Microsoft did not detail the development platform at all, they merely mentioned one thing: The development model is based around HTML5 and JavaScript. Based on that statement, It's fine to speculate that developers may not be able to make Silverlight or .NET Framework apps, but it's not fine to assume they won't as Microsoft have not detailed the platform.

I am not making any illogical assumptions. Your example isn't an assumption I have made. I haven't assumed that Microsoft are or aren't going to allow us to develop .NET or Silverlight immersive apps; I have simply said we should wait until they detail their development platform. That makes sense.

Given everything that's been revealed and heavily rumored on Neowin, Winrumors, Winsupersite, etc, you're making a lot of illogical assumptions (or simply saying 'oh, let's wait and see' when something's already been directly implied) from what I've even just quickly glanced over.

You haven't provided any examples of illogical assumptions I've made. You've just blindly accused me of that with no examples :/ Of course we should wait until they have given us enough information to reasonably conclude something; that is what makes sense. We shouldn't assume before we have the information. I am specifically talking about those who say it won't be usable with a keyboard and mouse; there is no way for us to know that at present.

Again, I think some people are singing praising over every aspect of Windows 8 for no reason. Folks, it's OK not to find everything Microsoft does absolutely OMGWTF amazing. If you honestly have no concerns about Windows 8 whatsoever, I think you're either a) a Microsoft employee or b) lying to yourself. It's a major change to every aspect of the OS. If nothing worries you, you have the most accepting response to major change I've ever witnessed in my entire life.

Am I anticipating Windows 8? Absolutely. Do I love Metro? Absolutely. Am I extremely concerned about how this is going to impact "power" users? You bet your ass I am.

I've been fine with every major change I can remember to any technology product I've used because all of those changes have provided me with benefits, and the technology has been better overall because of those benefits or a nicer look and feel. I am being honest; all the updated versions I can remember to any technology product or piece of software I have used. I wouldn't be dishonest about that; if something provided me with disadvantages, and wasn't beneficial overall, I would complain and be against it. I was very vocal against Internet Explorer 7 and 8, and I was vocal about some of the initial disadvantages of Windows Phone (although these have been addressed in the Mango update and Windows Phone as a whole has been very beneficial to me). From what they've shown of Windows 8, it appears to provide me with no disadvantages in terms of how I currently operate or would like to operate, and it seems it will provide me with many benefits. It's a major change, but one which looks to be fantastic, and it's actually very similar to what I was hoping after using Windows Phone. I am a power user, but it will not hinder me in any way (as a power user). Since posting here, I have been informed that some users like to have more than 2 programs open on the screen at any one time, and Windows 8 could hinder those, so I might be concerned that if Microsoft do not address this, more users will switch; however, I am not concerned at all for myself because the whole concept makes sense to me and from the little they've showed it seems many benefits are coming my way.