Windows 8 UI Is Chromeless

[Calum Veteran]

You will be forced to use Office "Immersive" to get work done. :unsure: :unsure:

No, I am stating I hope the immersive Start Screen is the only way for people to access applications, rather than them allowing some horrible, redundant Start Menu. They've stated that the immersive experience will integrate very well with the old mode, so there should be no problems accessing programs that only work in the old mode through the Start Screen.

[MFH]

The traditional desktop and Start Menu have not been removed

Maybe you should have paid more attention to the D9-presentation! The start menu is gone! Pressing the Start-Orb opens the "Start Screen"?

Also, anyone using Win7 who has a number of apps they always use have them pinned to the taskbar, don't even need the start menu much if at all.

If I pin all the programs I regularly use to the superbar, I'll need another 1 or 2 Dell U2711s?

But what's wrong with accessing all of those programs from the new Start Screen? Why would you need the Start Menu for that? You could spend most of your time on the desktop and still use the Start Screen for the great features it could provide (live tiles, notifications etc.)

It's an unnecessary UI switch for the sake of removing the established paradigm. Let's compare:

Win7: Start -> W -> ENTER => Word

Win8: Start -> new Screen, running programs are hidden -> search for Word (pan through all the programs that the Start Screen knows of) -> start Word -> return to classic UI

Even if the allow searching in the new UI it adds a whole lot of paradigm switching with no purpose. Imagine starting 3 programs in Win7 through the start menu and compare it to how it will be done in Win8?

I'm a professional developer and I'd have no problem doing that. What's wrong with launching Visual Studio and other applications in this way? Why would you dislike it so much? :s Microsoft have already confirmed that the Start Screen and new experience will integrate well with the old full desktop experience.

For beeing a professional developer you seem to still not understand "Microsoft speak". "integrate well" -> they aren't able to integrate the existing applications with the existing UI, what makes you think that they fare better after they add another totally unrelated UI?

[Kirkburn]

Win7: Start -> W -> ENTER => Word

Win8: Start -> new Screen, running programs are hidden -> search for Word (pan through all the programs that the Start Screen knows of) -> start Word -> return to classic UI

Even if the allow searching in the new UI it adds a whole lot of paradigm switching with no purpose. Imagine starting 3 programs in Win7 through the start menu and compare it to how it will be done in Win8?

For beeing a professional developer you seem to still not understand "Microsoft speak". "integrate well" -> they aren't able to integrate the existing applications with the existing UI, what makes you think that they fare better after they add another totally unrelated UI?

So basically, you're assuming a huge amount of stuff that likely won't be true.

Who says that the Win7 shortcut won't work? Who says the Win8 version would be so convoluted? Why do you think VS would be required to use some kind of tile-like UI (which you seem to be saying)? Otherwise, regarding launching it, I refer you to the other points.

[MFH]

So basically, you're assuming a huge amount of stuff that likely won't be true. Who says the Win8 version would be so convoluted?

You saw the videos, right? That's exactly what we've seen - sans the search functionality so it may be even worse than the Win95-era's start menu. I already said it after the first presentation of the UI: Microsoft is making a big mistake, because they aren't clarifying anything! Showing a new UI that breaks how you interact with the PC and saying "Wait till BUILD." was a major mistake!

Why do you think VS would be required to use some kind of tile-like UI (which you seem to be saying)?

Where did I say anything about VS?

[Kirkburn]

You saw the videos, right? That's exactly what we've seen - sans the search functionality so it may be even worse than the Win95-era's start menu. I already said it after the first presentation of the UI: Microsoft is making a big mistake, because they aren't clarifying anything! Showing a new UI that breaks how you interact with the PC and saying "Wait till BUILD." was a major mistake!

It's in development, it seems premature to accuse it of being drastically broken.

Where did I say anything about VS?

Sorry, that was someone else, but it was the general thread.

[Calum Veteran]

[. . .]

It's an unnecessary UI switch for the sake of removing the established paradigm. Let's compare:

Win7: Start -> W -> ENTER => Word

Win8: Start -> new Screen, running programs are hidden -> search for Word (pan through all the programs that the Start Screen knows of) -> start Word -> return to classic UI

Even if the allow searching in the new UI it adds a whole lot of paradigm switching with no purpose. Imagine starting 3 programs in Win7 through the start menu and compare it to how it will be done in Win8?

[. . .]

The fact is though, we don't yet know how it will be done in Windows 8; it might be just as easy and quick as it is in Windows 7.

[. . .]

For beeing a professional developer you seem to still not understand "Microsoft speak". "integrate well" -> they aren't able to integrate the existing applications with the existing UI, what makes you think that they fare better after they add another totally unrelated UI?

Because I don't assume like many people. I wait until I hear the facts. Judging by Windows Phone's Start Screen, I expect Microsoft will provide a very easy and quick way for us all to access any application, via a search feature, using the immersive interface, and I expect this will integrate well with the old experience simply due to how Microsoft have handled things in the past.

[Woelfel]

Oh people. Hate change I see. You'll get used to it just like everything else. I want to know the difference in some of you knowing about Win 8 now, or Win 8 at BUILD. Yea, would we like to know about it now, but there's no difference. You won't have the bits until BUILD. Yea, you can try to come up woth a new concept or something but honestly, you will still have like a year before Win 8 is released. I find this hilarious.

[George P Global Moderator]

I remember when XP introduced the new Start Panel (yes, that should be the official name, the Start Menu is the older one) people had this same sorta argument, don't like the new one, it's too big, too much wasted space, blah blah. Then after a few years that was forgotten it seems, now in Win7 you can't even use the classic Start menu and no ones saying anything.

As far as the start screen goes, you can pin whatever you want to it, that's all optional, panning left or right to "find" a specific tile shouldn't be an issue since you can place things where you want them. In that regard it's like shortcuts on the desktop that many people still use as a way to start apps. I also expect the ability to hit winkey and start typing to still work as well, no reason it shouldn't.

The only questions I have is if they'll have a specific start screen task switching option as well or if you'll have to fall back into the desktop in the end, which limits the start screen to, as far as we've seen, 2 side by side apps at the most.

[sam17ub]

Windows 7's start menu is completely redundant for me and anyone who knows how to properly use Windows 7. I NEVER EVER navigate the start menu programs folder. I use the start menu search box to launch everything. It's so much faster and easier. So, it is a nice move on Microsoft's part to remove the start menu from Windows 8's default UI. They can easily put the search box somewhere else.

[Ayepecks]

But what's wrong with accessing all of those programs from the new Start Screen? Why would you need the Start Menu for that? You could spend most of your time on the desktop and still use the Start Screen for the great features it could provide (live tiles, notifications etc.) It's very possible Microsoft will include a fast way for one to search and view all applications in the Windows Start Screen, just like they did with Windows Phone's Start Screen.

Why in the hell would I want to access them from the Start screen? So I want the desktop to kick me out, take me to the start screen, and force me to find it in all the damn tiles (or, at best, a search or application list that does the EXACT SAME THING it would have done by keeping me in the desktop and letting me access the start menu)? Yeah, no thanks. I don't want that kind of crappy experience. Even if Microsoft adds a new way, it's still an unnecessary step.

Don't make me boot to the start screen, click desktop, then click the start orb if I want to later access an app I don't have as an icon on my desktop, then kick me back out to the Start screen, then kick me back into the desktop because it's an app not designed with the new "experience" in mind. That's a whole new level of stupid.

I remember when XP introduced the new Start Panel (yes, that should be the official name, the Start Menu is the older one) people had this same sorta argument, don't like the new one, it's too big, too much wasted space, blah blah. Then after a few years that was forgotten it seems, now in Win7 you can't even use the classic Start menu and no ones saying anything.

As far as the start screen goes, you can pin whatever you want to it, that's all optional, panning left or right to "find" a specific tile shouldn't be an issue since you can place things where you want them. In that regard it's like shortcuts on the desktop that many people still use as a way to start apps. I also expect the ability to hit winkey and start typing to still work as well, no reason it shouldn't.

The only questions I have is if they'll have a specific start screen task switching option as well or if you'll have to fall back into the desktop in the end, which limits the start screen to, as far as we've seen, 2 side by side apps at the most.

Your comparison is in no way analogous. If you're honestly trying to tell me that the pre-XP start menu and post-XP start menu are similar to this jump, then I don't know what to tell you, because you're lying to yourself. The same basic style was the same, and it didn't waste your time. The only major difference was one had bigger icons and quick links to system areas.

[firey]

If the startmenu gets removed, then I am just gunna have to write my own shell that lets me have a start menu and desktop.. assuming one isn't created by someone else first. The only reason I'd go to windows 8 has nothing to do with tiles it would be to have the latest OS..

[MFH]

If the startmenu gets removed, then I am just gunna have to write my own shell that lets me have a start menu and desktop.. assuming one isn't created by someone else first. The only reason I'd go to windows 8 has nothing to do with tiles it would be to have the latest OS..

Marketing slogan: "Windows 8 - We did it again."

[remixedcat]

the question is why do we need this new UI? what is so wrong with what we have? (AND NO MARKETSPEAK OR TROLLING PLEASE!)

[ATLien_0]

I can't believe people think its going away, it wont, because Microsoft would loose a huch user base, their Business/Enterprise market. For a home user that only uses a few apps I can see this being great. For me at least in Windows 7 the start menu is very redundant. I don't have many apps installed and most are docked on the super bar. The rest are pinned on the start menu and for the core Windows apps I use the search function. This isn't to say that the start menu should be stripped away to only have a dock like OSX but rather its functionality has changed to more of a control menu rather than a full on app menu

[George P Global Moderator]

Your comparison is in no way analogous. If you're honestly trying to tell me that the pre-XP start menu and post-XP start menu are similar to this jump, then I don't know what to tell you, because you're lying to yourself. The same basic style was the same, and it didn't waste your time. The only major difference was one had bigger icons and quick links to system areas.

You've missed my point, I wasn't comparing them only stating that anytime MS does a change, regardless of the size a group of you cry foul and want the old way back. Yet the same people who didn't like the change to the start panel when it happened in XP (because yes, unless you've totally forgotten there were a vocal group who hated it) don't care for it now at all.

Hell, when WIn7 brought in the new taskbar there was again a group who didn't want it either. The point is if MS never changed anything because of a group of people who didn't want change we'd get nowhere. And regardless of what they do, big or small, someones always going to moan about it.

the question is why do we need this new UI? what is so wrong with what we have? (AND NO MARKETSPEAK OR TROLLING PLEASE!)

What was wrong with classic that we needed Luna? What was wrong with Luna that we needed Aero?

[remixedcat]

At least aero and luna had the same layout.... aero and metro are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.

the only difference between aero and luna was the aesthetics, colors, and the button textures and transperancy... the rest of the UI was the same and the elements were in the same places.

metro is completly different.

[Ci7]

the question is why do we need this new UI? what is so wrong with what we have? (AND NO MARKETSPEAK OR TROLLING PLEASE!)

typical.

i bet you would escape 8 and go to 9 and say "magic!"

just imagine the later throw desktop UI to trash

opps!

[MFH]

Yet the same people who didn't like the change to the start panel when it happened in XP (because yes, unless you've totally forgotten there were a vocal group who hated it) don't care for it now at all.

Nope, they use the classic UI in WinXP?

Hell, when WIn7 brought in the new taskbar there was again a group who didn't want it either.

Yeah and they don't use it! They deactivate the window grouping, enable window titles, change the size of the taskbar to "small" and use it as they have since Win95?

What was wrong with classic that we needed Luna? What was wrong with Luna that we needed Aero?

Luna looked like a Fisher Price toy - so does the Metro UI. Only reason to use Luna: It doesn't look as oldschool as the classic UI.

[Calum Veteran]

Why in the hell would I want to access them from the Start screen? So I want the desktop to kick me out, take me to the start screen, and force me to find it in all the damn tiles (or, at best, a search or application list that does the EXACT SAME THING it would have done by keeping me in the desktop and letting me access the start menu)? Yeah, no thanks. I don't want that kind of crappy experience. Even if Microsoft adds a new way, it's still an unnecessary step.

Don't make me boot to the start screen, click desktop, then click the start orb if I want to later access an app I don't have as an icon on my desktop, then kick me back out to the Start screen, then kick me back into the desktop because it's an app not designed with the new "experience" in mind. That's a whole new level of stupid.

[. . .]

You don't know what that experience would be like though until you try it. If you don't have an app pinned to the Taskbar or placed on the Desktop, you will access the Start Menu to use it anyway, so if the Start Screen has a search option, there is hardly any difference in experience. Instead of the Start Menu covering a bit of the screen while you're selecting the app, the Start Screen covers the full screen; that's probably it (we don't know until we try it). There may be no "crappy experience" it could just be a case of how much of the screen is covered by the Start Screen when you access a new app, and considering you won't be accessing apps that frequently while you're working, why would that be a problem? It's just like Backstage in Office 2010. Do you become annoyed when the screen is covered after you click "File" in the Office ribbon? If this works how I expect it to in Windows 8, it's just like Backstage in Office. This is of course considering that Microsoft may make the Aero interface more Metro (as Metro as possible while still maintaining usability). If Microsoft include the old experience as is, looking like Aero currently does in Windows 8 (especially with glass), I'll be severely disappointed.

the question is why do we need this new UI? what is so wrong with what we have? (AND NO MARKETSPEAK OR TROLLING PLEASE!)

No one needs improvements, but companies have to improve their products to stop users switching. Since seeing the new, immersive experience, I've been feeling that Windows 7 is stale. The new experience looks to be much more enjoyable to use from what I can tell; it's also possible that more productivity can occur. Since being able to pin websites to the Windows 7 taskbar, I've enjoyed Facebook notifications appearing in the pinned entry for Facebook, but even then we have to check the website to see what the actual notification is. It's likely, from what we've seen, that this new Start Screen will display the latest notification from our social networking sites, the latest RSS feed article to have been received, the latest unread email message, the latest unread instant message, and more. It may even be that it shows the latest 5 or something rather than just the latest. Either way, having this information displayed to us on one screen while we work on another screen would increase the productivity for many of us. We may no longer have to go into separate apps to see all of our updates; we're instantly informed when there is a new update, and we're told what that update is. Not only could it increase productivity, it would be more enjoyable to use for many of us. I prefer to be notified as soon as I receive a notification from a social networking website, I prefer to be notified as soon as I receive a new email or instant message, and I prefer to be notified as soon as I receive a new RSS feed article (all among other updates). With this, I'm going on what we've seen, and just speculating as to what it could mean. I'm not assuming or expecting, but I'm hoping judging by what we've seen. If Microsoft do this right, the Windows Start Screen will be so useful to many of us; I just hope there will be a way for me to have the Start Screen always open on one screen while I work on another.

[Ci7]

No one needs improvements, but companies have to improve their products to stop users switching. Since seeing the new, immersive experience, I've been feeling that Windows 7 is stale. The new experience looks to be much more enjoyable to use from what I can tell; it's also possible that more productivity can occur. Since being able to pin websites to the Windows 7 taskbar, I've enjoyed Facebook notifications appearing in the pinned entry for Facebook, but even then we have to check the website to see what the actual notification is. It's likely, from what we've seen, that this new Start Screen will display the latest notification from our social networking sites, the latest RSS feed article to have been received, the latest unread email message, the latest unread instant message, and more. It may even be that it shows the latest 5 or something rather than just the latest. Either way, having this information displayed to us on one screen while we work on another screen would increase the productivity for many of us. We may no longer have to go into separate apps to see all of our updates; we're instantly informed when there is a new update, and we're told what that update is. Not only could it increase productivity, it would be more enjoyable to use for many of us. I prefer to be notified as soon as I receive a notification from a social networking website, I prefer to be notified as soon as I receive a new email or instant message, and I prefer to be notified as soon as I receive a new RSS feed article (all among other updates). With this, I'm going on what we've seen, and just speculating as to what it could mean. I'm not assuming or expecting, but I'm hoping judging by what we've seen. If Microsoft do this right, the Windows Start Screen will be so useful to many of us; I just hope there will be a way for me to have the Start Screen always open on one screen while I work on another.

i hope microsoft be very very cautious with 3rd party apps

they can easily ruin the experiences , oh and every element should be on it own process regarding Microsoft explorer

for whatever reason in Win7 explorer run in single process for all open windows , any open window crash drag the rest with it.

you get were i am going ....

[Calum Veteran]

i hope microsoft be very very cautious with 3rd party apps

they can easily ruin the experiences , oh and every element should be on it own process regarding Microsoft explorer

for whatever reason in Win7 explorer run in single process for all open windows , any open window crash drag the rest with it.

you get were i am going ....

I do see exactly what you're saying, and I completely agree on both points :)

In regard to 3rd party venders, I hope Microsoft is strict with them so that their ensure their apps maintain consistency with the new, immersive experience. I'd like all apps to have the same consistent feel, just like they do on Windows Phone.

[remixedcat]

No one needs improvements, but companies have to improve their products to stop users switching. Since seeing the new, immersive experience, I've been feeling that Windows 7 is stale. The new experience looks to be much more enjoyable to use from what I can tell; it's also possible that more productivity can occur. Since being able to pin websites to the Windows 7 taskbar, I've enjoyed Facebook notifications appearing in the pinned entry for Facebook, but even then we have to check the website to see what the actual notification is. It's likely, from what we've seen, that this new Start Screen will display the latest notification from our social networking sites, the latest RSS feed article to have been received, the latest unread email message, the latest unread instant message, and more. It may even be that it shows the latest 5 or something rather than just the latest. Either way, having this information displayed to us on one screen while we work on another screen would increase the productivity for many of us. We may no longer have to go into separate apps to see all of our updates; we're instantly informed when there is a new update, and we're told what that update is. Not only could it increase productivity, it would be more enjoyable to use for many of us. I prefer to be notified as soon as I receive a notification from a social networking website, I prefer to be notified as soon as I receive a new email or instant message, and I prefer to be notified as soon as I receive a new RSS feed article (all among other updates). With this, I'm going on what we've seen, and just speculating as to what it could mean. I'm not assuming or expecting, but I'm hoping judging by what we've seen. If Microsoft do this right, the Windows Start Screen will be so useful to many of us; I just hope there will be a way for me to have the Start Screen always open on one screen while I work on another.

we can opt-in to get that same info through rainmeter! I'd rather opt-in to those "social" features. What MS did was they copied rainmeter's features and mixed them with the mediacenter UI and slapped it all together... strangeness. I would much rather have rainmeter and not have the MC UI becuase I have no use for the MC ui. Mabye my media pc downstairs.... but not my main desktop.

[MFH]

It's just like Backstage in Office 2010.

If Backstage is covering your whole monitor you're doing it so wrong it actually hurts?

No one needs improvements, but companies have to improve their products to stop users switching.

Change for the sake of change is never a good idea?

Since seeing the new, immersive experience, I've been feeling that Windows 7 is stale.

Since I've seen it I have the feeling that they will have to support Win7 even longer than they did XP not matter how many versions the release?

The new experience looks to be much more enjoyable to use from what I can tell; it's also possible that more productivity can occur. Since being able to pin websites to the Windows 7 taskbar, I've enjoyed Facebook notifications appearing in the pinned entry for Facebook, but even then we have to check the website to see what the actual notification is.

Facebook and productivity in the same context *omg*

It's likely, from what we've seen, that this new Start Screen will display the latest notification from our social networking sites

Thought you wanted to make a point for productivity here?

We may no longer have to go into separate apps to see all of our updates; we're instantly informed when there is a new update

Even Windows Live Mail does that today?

In regard to 3rd party venders, I hope Microsoft is strict with them so that their ensure their apps maintain consistency with the new, immersive experience.

They won't! They didn't enforce any user interface guide for more than 20 years and never will be? In fact on WP it only works because you are limited to one interface technology and that won't happen on Windows any time soon?

[remixedcat]

How in the hell would you expect Photoshop or reviit architecture or digital project architecture to use metro '10 foot UI'? it would be NIGHTMARE to design buildings using that new UI and if they adhere to metro it would be hell to use those interfaces. the metro guidelines won't allow for high information density. programs like that (note how I won't say apps for that) can't adhere to metro because metro is low information density for the sake of minimalism. high information density programs will look messy and too many functions will be hidden behind mystery meat for them to be usable.

I don't think MS kept this in mind.

if you have programs with high information density it would look like a mess of text everywhere and hard to read and organize.

[Calum Veteran]

we can opt-in to get that same info through rainmeter! I'd rather opt-in to those "social" features. What MS did was they copied rainmeter's features and mixed them with the mediacenter UI and slapped it all together... strangeness. I would much rather have rainmeter and not have the MC UI becuase I have no use for the MC ui. Mabye my media pc downstairs.... but not my main desktop.

This is nothing like Rainmeter; some of the features may be somewhat similar, but the whole premise of the immersive Windows experience is nothing like Rainmeter. I suggest you watch the below video:

We're talking about the whole immersive interface, not just the Start Screen. The Start Screen is just one part of that whole experience, and the Start Screen goes well with that experience. You do not need to utilise any of the social networking capabilities that may be present in Windows 8, including pinning tiles that provide such updates; you are free to customise the Start Screen in whatever way you'd like, as Microsoft stated at their Worldwide Partner Conference this week.

The fact you keep referring to it as "a Media Center UI" proves you don't quite understand the whole concept. The new, immersive experience utilises the Metro design language, not anything called the "Media Center UI." You need to seriously read up on it. Comparing it to Rainmeter is unreasonable and ridiculous. It's a whole new concept for how Windows apps look, feel, and function.

If Backstage is covering your whole monitor you're doing it so wrong it actually hurts?

It doesn't cover my whole monitor, but if one has an Office app maximised, it covers the majority of the screen in a similar fashion to how this Start Screen would.

Change for the sake of change is never a good idea?

This isn't change for change's sake; this is change for the sake of major improvement.

Since I've seen it I have the feeling that they will have to support Win7 even longer than they did XP not matter how many versions the release?

That's because you haven't given it a chance. You haven't even tried it out yourself and you're already predicting it won't be usable :rolleyes:

Facebook and productivity in the same context *omg*

Yes. Common sense should tell you that if one doesn't have to check the Facebook website many times a day because their updates are pushed to them, they will save time and be able to use that time for work instead. Remember, this isn't just about Facebook updates; it's about updates to every online service one uses regularly (again, this is speculation on my part, from what we've seen, as anyone will be able to make use of live tiles for their apps). It will all allow for more productivity.

Thought you wanted to make a point for productivity here?

:rolleyes: I now realise why you don't quite understand the new immersive user interface concept. It seems you may have a problem reading, or at least understanding what you're reading. 1) I was making a case for productivity, enjoyment from use, and usefulness of the operating system as a whole. 2) If notifications are pushed to people and displayed on one of their screens, they don't have to navigate to that service specifically many times a day; thus, they will save time, and have more time to do work. More productivity.

Please read my posts and ensure you understand them before you reply.

Even Windows Live Mail does that today?

Not in the same way the new Windows 8 Start Screen appears to, and you know that! Windows Live Mail also does not display a tile that is always on view. It displays an overlay in the icon on the taskbar (that doesn't even say who the new email was from or the subject of the email), and it displays a notification for a few seconds. If one misses the notification, one has to go into the app to see the update. The app also only caters for emails and doesn't display the new RSS feed articles and emails on the same form, so one still has to press buttons if they wish to see both the latest RSS feed article and the latest email. I'm talking about all of this information displayed to the user without the need for any buttons to be pressed or any apps to be opened. You comparing the apparent capabilities of the Windows 8 Start Screen with what Windows Live Mail can do in terms of icon overlay and notifications is laughable!

They won't! They didn't enforce any user interface guide for more than 20 years and never will be? In fact on WP it only works because you are limited to one interface technology and that won't happen on Windows any time soon?

You don't know that they won't. You're assuming, and expecting, which is the problem you have in regard to your views on Windows 8. None of us know exactly what Windows 8 will provide, yet you assume and expect, rather than simply speculate and wait.

How in the hell would you expect Photoshop or reviit architecture or digital project architecture to use metro '10 foot UI'? it would be NIGHTMARE to design buildings using that new UI and if they adhere to metro it would be hell to use those interfaces. the metro guidelines won't allow for high information density. programs like that (note how I won't say apps for that) can't adhere to metro because metro is low information density for the sake of minimalism. high information density programs will look messy and too many functions will be hidden behind mystery meat for them to be usable.

I don't think MS kept this in mind.

if you have programs with high information density it would look like a mess of text everywhere and hard to read and organize.

You don't know how they could and would work, but I'm sure Microsoft has thought of, or will think of, ways to either develop such apps so they run well under the new immersive experience, or so that the experience when using such apps is as immersive as possible so that there will not always be this divide between the immersive experience and the experience when running these "high-information density" apps.