Windows 8 Success

[Ambroos]

Windows 7 is a total winner when it comes to using it with mouse and keyboard. You have tons of awesome keyboard shortcuts (Winkey+number, winkey -> type -> enter to launch, ...) and everything is just made for mouse and keyboards, which makes it extremely fast to navigate once you're used to it.

The problem with Windows 8 is that they're designing it for touch-devices (even though the huge majority of Windows 8 devices will still have traditional mouse/keyboard/touchpad setups) and then trying to retrofit it to work properly with a mouse and keyboard. And that will NEVER work, especially not with a touchpad.

There is too much going on. You've got horizontal scrolling (which can't be done with most mice or has to be set up properly, same for touchpads), huge distances to travel, no proper multitasking (as in freely resizable Windows just like every other proper OS) and no room for powerful apps. Sure this whole tile thing is fun, but it doesn't allow for any proper use. It's good if you want to check your emails, read status updates, play a game, check the news. If you want to get any work done, it's horrible. Absolutely horrible.

If Microsoft doesn't drastically change they way they're going with Windows 8 I will not be using it. Ever. They should remember that tablets aren't their biggest concern. Scale up Windows Phone 7 or modify Windows 7 a little to make it fun to use with tablets. But don't go give us Desktop users an interface designed for tablets. Remember your biggest market is the corporate market, and they are not waiting for a tablet interface. Not at all.

[Joey S]

I think Windows 8 will just fragment the user base even more. Some are sticking with XP, others skipped Vista entirely and went to 7, and some will jump to 8 along with the tablet users. It's gonna get messy from what I can tell.

[redfish]

The main objective of the ribbon is to what it was originally designed to do in Office, which is to make frequently used and hidden useful features easily visible for home users. People get overwhelmed when they have to dig through long menus and then end up asking how to do even the most simplest tasks. For most pro users who use keyboard shortcuts, the ribbon interface is useless and will be turned off.

As for IE ribbon, I am positive they will never add it simply due to the fact that the minimalism in the browser wins as people simply want to maximum screen viewing space.

Menus and ribbons aren't the only options though. I think in something like explorer you can bake most of the functions intuitively within the interface. You don't have 100s of commands like you do in Office.

I think minimalism in the browser wins, because you wan't a lot of chrome in the browser distracting you. In a browser, you want a reading environment that focuses your eye on the content. Word is an editing environment, rather than a reading environment.

I think Explorer and IE should have similar design directives. Both should focus on content.

[still1]

Collapse the ribbon into a standard bar and you'll get more in Win 8 again. Silly thing to be judging an OS on though seeing as you can customize it or just flat out replace it.

+1 with you on that....

[DeadEndAccount]

The metro API is all very nice but I'm concerned that traditional desktop applications are being ignored under this illusion that some how 'all apps can be metro apps'. The cold hard reality is that metro is a fine paradigm for particular types of applications but for large complex applications like Visual Studio or even Microsoft Office there needs to be a richer experience. I was really hoping that with the release of the details surrounding WinRT that maybe they were releasing the Metro elements first and that maybe we'll see a two pronged API with the presentation side having a desktop and metro API but sharing the same common lower level API features that will exist for both metro and desktop applications.

I like what I see but once again we're seeing the desktop being neglected as they did in Vista where they neglected native API's under the illusion that .NET was the future - WinRT has some great features so why not enable both desktop and metro applications to be based on this clean API? why not replace 30 years of common control cruft with a sexy hardware accelerated GUI which scalable common controls etc? Oh well, maybe something will be released in the next year that'll perk up my optimism about the future.

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

I get even more in OS X Lion. 30 folders vs 22 to be exact including the Menu Bar. :whistle:

I count 32 :rofl:

[BetaAddict]

Menus and ribbons aren't the only options though. I think in something like explorer you can bake most of the functions intuitively within the interface. You don't have 100s of commands like you do in Office.

I think minimalism in the browser wins, because you wan't a lot of chrome in the browser distracting you. In a browser, you want a reading environment that focuses your eye on the content. Word is an editing environment, rather than a reading environment.

I think Explorer and IE should have similar design directives. Both should focus on content.

You are right in that the number of commands are quite few. But there isn't that many more ways to make a more "intuitive" explorer UI. Simplest way is to leave everything in menus, but that is partly why people have such a hard time finding what they need if they don't know the keyboard shortcuts and ribbon is being implemented. Though the ribbon design needs to be slightly adjusted. See my reply below in how I think it should be.

I count 32 :rofl:

Well if you collapse the ribbon in the Win8 explorer, then I'd bet the number count is about the same. This comparison also highlights why the ribbon needs to be slimmed down so it doesn't waste so much space. Easiest way to do this is reduce the size of the icons than the taskbar icons.

[PGHammer]

The metro API is all very nice but I'm concerned that traditional desktop applications are being ignored under this illusion that some how 'all apps can be metro apps'. The cold hard reality is that metro is a fine paradigm for particular types of applications but for large complex applications like Visual Studio or even Microsoft Office there needs to be a richer experience. I was really hoping that with the release of the details surrounding WinRT that maybe they were releasing the Metro elements first and that maybe we'll see a two pronged API with the presentation side having a desktop and metro API but sharing the same common lower level API features that will exist for both metro and desktop applications.

I like what I see but once again we're seeing the desktop being neglected as they did in Vista where they neglected native API's under the illusion that .NET was the future - WinRT has some great features so why not enable both desktop and metro applications to be based on this clean API? why not replace 30 years of common control cruft with a sexy hardware accelerated GUI which scalable common controls etc? Oh well, maybe something will be released in the next year that'll perk up my optimism about the future.

Mr N - have you tried the version of the Developer Preview that includes, among other things, the then-current version of Visual Studio? Have you installed Office 2010?

In my case, I have (in fact, the Developer Preview half of my dual-boot setup has both installed). Office 2010 (in its entirety) works just fine. So does Visual Studio. And I use an all too traditional keyboard and mouse in both.

Not so much as one legacy (non-Metro) application that I use broke or failed to work. If it worked in 7, it works in the Developer Preview.

All that is missing is the Start menu (and other not-ready-for-primetime applets, such as Windows Media Center).

The Start menu being missing (or locked down, as is the case with the Developer Preview) should NOT cause any legacy application any issues (and doesn't).

The included Visual Studio, while useful in writing Metro/Immersive applications, is not one - it's still a traditional development toolkit, and can still be used to write traditional applications.

Mr N - don't rely on outside experts on this - including me. Download the Developer Preview and install/test it yourself - even if only in a virtual machine.

[remixedcat]

try skyrimjob in windows 8 and then let me know....

[Eric Veteran]

try skyrimjob in windows 8 and then let me know....

If you mean Skyrim, the game, then yes, it works fine.

[remixedcat]

what's your FPS and system specs???

[PGHammer]

I am a fan of always upgrading to the latest and greatest. I upgraded to Vista the week it was released, and the same with 7. However, Windows 8 looks horrible IMO. I think the Metro UI will be the worst decision Microsoft has ever made. Yes I know it works fine for tablets......so release a tablet version of Windows! Most people are still on XP because they do not like the way Vista and 7 look, so what are the chances that those people will love metro? Why would they through away their hard Aero work for the default 1980's looking theme? Business will take one look at it and wont want to take the time to disable Metro (unless it is disabled in the Enterprise version).

What is the point of Metro? How are games supposed to work, it will need to be sent to the "classic" desktop right? What about Photoshop or After Effects? Why didnt they just keep the classic desktop?

Am I the only one that does not like Metro? What do you think business will say? Do you think Windows 8 will be a success?

Every game I have installed in the DP (and that's all my games - including Steam and Origin-based games) runs as good as, or better than, 7 SP1 does, and on the same (except for HDD) hardware. (Oh - by the way, the DP was on the *slower* HDD - not the faster one.)

The same is true of all my legacy/Classic applications.

So why wouldn't Photoshop or AfterEffects Just Plain Work, if Office 2010 (and its competing productivity suites, including OpenOffice/LibreOffice) Just Plain Work?

The hardware in question - Intel Q6600 (the original mainstream Intel quad-core) with 3 GB of RAM, and HD5450 AMD-based graphics, and Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI, and Logitech Communicate STX webcam, Microsoft Wireless Keyboard 6000 V.3 (IntelliType Pro 8.2) and Logitech V220 Cordless Mouse (using Microsoft IntelliPoint 8.2 - that's not a typo; it's what I use in Windows 7 SP1 as well). In every case, I am, in fact, using the same drivers (and same control software) that I use in 7 SP1 (both are x64) - so it certainly isn't driver differences. Yet one particularly troublesome BSOD (HAL-related) that I have in Windows 7 x64 SP1 I do not have in the DP.

[migo]

Agreed. I feel that the Metro UI doesn't fit in well with Aero.

That's a good thing. I hope they take it further and you can have a completely Metro taskbar, title bar and scrollbar. Of course a custom UI can be put in anyway, but it'd be nice if they do it by default.

I think Windows 8 will just fragment the user base even more. Some are sticking with XP, others skipped Vista entirely and went to 7, and some will jump to 8 along with the tablet users. It's gonna get messy from what I can tell.

Nah, XP users will upgrade, either to 7 or 8. It's hitting the point with web browsing that an XP era computer won't handle the new HTML5 web.

[MFH]

Mr N - have you tried the version of the Developer Preview that includes, among other things, the then-current version of Visual Studio? Have you installed Office 2010?

In my case, I have (in fact, the Developer Preview half of my dual-boot setup has both installed). Office 2010 (in its entirety) works just fine. So does Visual Studio. And I use an all too traditional keyboard and mouse in both.

Not so much as one legacy (non-Metro) application that I use broke or failed to work. If it worked in 7, it works in the Developer Preview.

All that is missing is the Start menu (and other not-ready-for-primetime applets, such as Windows Media Center).

The Start menu being missing (or locked down, as is the case with the Developer Preview) should NOT cause any legacy application any issues (and doesn't).

The included Visual Studio, while useful in writing Metro/Immersive applications, is not one - it's still a traditional development toolkit, and can still be used to write traditional applications.

Mr N - don't rely on outside experts on this - including me. Download the Developer Preview and install/test it yourself - even if only in a virtual machine.

Way to miss his point?

[Jimmy422]

I think everyone is missing the point with Windows 8. The only "metro" in the operating system is in the start menu. Not the desktop - the start menu. You can change policies to have your computer go straight to the desktop like in Windows 7. You can even change policies to disable the new start menu entirely and go back to the classic Windows 7 one. I don't see why you would though - anything the old start menu didn't take up was just wasted screen space. Why be limited to ~300 pixels by ~700 pixels when you can have it take up the whole screen? Why does it even matter - you can just start typing and do an instant search just like in Windows 7 - which is what you should be doing with the start menu in the first place.

They're not abandoning Aero either - they're making a hybrid of the two, which in my opinion looks pretty good.

Seriously - what's wrong with that? It's clean and focused. Go watch the Metro videos if you want to see what Microsoft wants you to get out of this. Why should we continue to use gradients and gimmicky large icons when simple clean monochrome icons do the job just as well?

[MFH]

They're not abandoning Aero either - they're making a hybrid of the two, which in my opinion looks pretty good.

Good? Only in Bizarro World something like that could possible be considered beautiful?

[winlonghorn]

I am a fan of always upgrading to the latest and greatest. I upgraded to Vista the week it was released, and the same with 7. However, Windows 8 looks horrible IMO. I think the Metro UI will be the worst decision Microsoft has ever made. Yes I know it works fine for tablets......so release a tablet version of Windows! Most people are still on XP because they do not like the way Vista and 7 look, so what are the chances that those people will love metro? Why would they through away their hard Aero work for the default 1980's looking theme? Business will take one look at it and wont want to take the time to disable Metro (unless it is disabled in the Enterprise version).

What is the point of Metro? How are games supposed to work, it will need to be sent to the "classic" desktop right? What about Photoshop or After Effects? Why didnt they just keep the classic desktop?

Am I the only one that does not like Metro? What do you think business will say? Do you think Windows 8 will be a success?

What do you mean "How will games work"? You click a tile that can be constantly updated with your stats or news about the game and then it launches you into the game. You don't have to be taken back to the desktop.

[firey]

That's a good thing. I hope they take it further and you can have a completely Metro taskbar, title bar and scrollbar. Of course a custom UI can be put in anyway, but it'd be nice if they do it by default.

See I am hoping they go a few steps back and remove metro completely aside from the start page which I am truly hoping can be disabled.

[migo]

I think everyone is missing the point with Windows 8. The only "metro" in the operating system is in the start menu. Not the desktop - the start menu. You can change policies to have your computer go straight to the desktop like in Windows 7. You can even change policies to disable the new start menu entirely and go back to the classic Windows 7 one. I don't see why you would though - anything the old start menu didn't take up was just wasted screen space. Why be limited to ~300 pixels by ~700 pixels when you can have it take up the whole screen? Why does it even matter - you can just start typing and do an instant search just like in Windows 7 - which is what you should be doing with the start menu in the first place.

They're not abandoning Aero either - they're making a hybrid of the two, which in my opinion looks pretty good.

Seriously - what's wrong with that? It's clean and focused. Go watch the Metro videos if you want to see what Microsoft wants you to get out of this. Why should we continue to use gradients and gimmicky large icons when simple clean monochrome icons do the job just as well?

I love that look. Is that a mock-up/custom UI or is that what the beta is actually going to look like?

See I am hoping they go a few steps back and remove metro completely aside from the start page which I am truly hoping can be disabled.

Were you someone who really liked NeoPlanet when it was launched?

[AstareGod]

why not replace 30 years of common control cruft with a sexy hardware accelerated GUI which scalable common controls etc? Oh well, maybe something will be released in the next year that'll perk up my optimism about the future.

Have you heard of WPF? Hardware-accelerated, and scalable. Windows Forms vs WPF is like raster graphics vs vector graphics. The UI in WPF scales perfectly with the DPI settings. Creating the layout for UI seems a lot more intuitive for me as a developer than Windows Forms ever did, and there is so much more you can do with WPF right out of the box. There is a bit of a learning curve at first, but once you get past it, it's a great tool for building UI.

[Albert]

I am a fan of always upgrading to the latest and greatest. I upgraded to Vista the week it was released, and the same with 7. However, Windows 8 looks horrible IMO. I think the Metro UI will be the worst decision Microsoft has ever made. Yes I know it works fine for tablets......so release a tablet version of Windows! Most people are still on XP because they do not like the way Vista and 7 look, so what are the chances that those people will love metro? Why would they through away their hard Aero work for the default 1980's looking theme? Business will take one look at it and wont want to take the time to disable Metro (unless it is disabled in the Enterprise version).

What is the point of Metro? How are games supposed to work, it will need to be sent to the "classic" desktop right? What about Photoshop or After Effects? Why didnt they just keep the classic desktop?

Am I the only one that does not like Metro? What do you think business will say? Do you think Windows 8 will be a success?

my sentiment exactly. i have been tracking every version of windows since the ms-dos days. i am stopping at windows 7 and no more. period. my guess is windows 8 will be vista 2.0.

[Detection]

I`m guessing it will be a good OS if you can still kill with fire the Metro UI - or if Desktop version either gives the option to disable or just defaults to classic

When I use WIndows 8 DP and turn off the Metro UI, its actually a nice faster than 7 OS

[firey]

Were you someone who really liked NeoPlanet when it was launched?

I have never heard of NeoPlanet, had to google it. And I never used it so I dunno, maybe I would have. Either way, I am someone who dislikes the plain-ness which is metro. I dislike the tile concept and don't see the benefit to live Data for what I use a computer for. I use visual studio, don't really need a live tile to tell me the last count of bugs in my code. Don't need a tile to tell me I haven't logged into wow in a week. Don't need a VLC tile to tell me that I watch way too much porn.

[migo]

Ah, different strokes then. Up until 7 (Aero Peek won me over), I would always use the classic UI and turn as much of it white as possible, going with flat white skins in Maxthon. I was quite thrilled when Chrome brought in by default the minimalist tabs as title bar look I customised in Maxthon 2, and was also thrilled to see Windows Phone use that same minimalist look.

[DeadEndAccount]

Mr N - have you tried the version of the Developer Preview that includes, among other things, the then-current version of Visual Studio? Have you installed Office 2010?

In my case, I have (in fact, the Developer Preview half of my dual-boot setup has both installed). Office 2010 (in its entirety) works just fine. So does Visual Studio. And I use an all too traditional keyboard and mouse in both.

Not so much as one legacy (non-Metro) application that I use broke or failed to work. If it worked in 7, it works in the Developer Preview.

All that is missing is the Start menu (and other not-ready-for-primetime applets, such as Windows Media Center).

The Start menu being missing (or locked down, as is the case with the Developer Preview) should NOT cause any legacy application any issues (and doesn't).

The included Visual Studio, while useful in writing Metro/Immersive applications, is not one - it's still a traditional development toolkit, and can still be used to write traditional applications.

Mr N - don't rely on outside experts on this - including me. Download the Developer Preview and install/test it yourself - even if only in a virtual machine.

You haven't addressed any issues I've raised - you're talking about compatibility where what I was talking about was whether Microsoft was pushing forward and improving the API's available to to traditional desktop developers who aren't interested in targeting the Metro UI. The reason why I ask is because WinRT has some great power and memory management improvements but I assume you can only use WinRT if you're making metro applications or can you use WinRT framework but say create a traditional desktop UI using XAML/WPF or some other technology that Microsoft has provided.

For example, I am reading through this link: http://joshsmithonwpf.wordpress.com/2011/09/18/winrt-is-your-friend/ and I came across the following quotation:

Nick Polyak says:

October 19, 2011 at 9:57 am

BTW, according to my understanding one can also develop non-metro style apps (usual desktop apps) using WinRT even though at this point WinRT provides only a subset of win32 functionality. I also understand that the goal is to expand WinRT functionality to completely replace win32 and use it exclusively for both metro and desktop development.

But that is only hunch where as I am looking for some sort of official announcement by Microsoft as to the direction of traditional desktop applications.

Have you heard of WPF? Hardware-accelerated, and scalable. Windows Forms vs WPF is like raster graphics vs vector graphics. The UI in WPF scales perfectly with the DPI settings. Creating the layout for UI seems a lot more intuitive for me as a developer than Windows Forms ever did, and there is so much more you can do with WPF right out of the box. There is a bit of a learning curve at first, but once you get past it, it's a great tool for building UI.

But that is for managed applications - what I am referring to his native applications - the 'old days' you would use common controls and dialogues (along with other native dlls which rely on GDI) but what is used for native appellations these days?