official Windows 8 Consumer Preview Discussion

[Cereal Bawks]

I thought that file system was for Win Server. Is there any advantage to using that over NTFS in the regular version of Win 8?

Unlike what most people keep claiming here for years, client and server are the same damn thing. Latter comes just with additional code to do the server specific stuff and a bunch of different registry keys which change some core components behavior. (The only exception is XP and 2003, and only because the server release was subjected to an additional security code review, after the Win2K code leak.)

You just copy the refs.sys driver and urefs.dll user mode component to the client and add the necessary registry keys to load the driver during boot, and you're set.

As far as advantages go, better data integrity I'd say. And actually necessary, if you expect a mirror storage space to actually hotfix your broken filesystem blocks. --edit: And being fully B+ tree, metadata look ups are way faster.

Sure, it has in its first implementation less features, but the only real practical thing missing for the consumer is sparse file support, for applications making use of it. Like for instance uTorrent, which creates a sparse files instead of preallocating them. Handy if you're downloading very large files, so the disk(s) isn't/aren't occupied allocating several gigabytes of zeroed blocks.

Gotta go with bullsh*t too. ReFS, for now, is only targeted for company managing huge numbers of data, I don't think that you need anything more than the "storage" provides you.

Read this article plz, you can't even boot on ReFS, again it's only here to store massive datas :

http://blogs.msdn.co...ndows-refs.aspx

You actually realize that Win9 Client will get ReFS? Microsoft said so clearly. The only reason it's not yet in Win8 is their file system maturing process. Same happened with NTFS back then, back with NT3.1. Server first, then NT3.5 had NTFS enabled in the client.

And it's not just for massive data, it also offers resiliency. I mean, it's in its damn name, for Christ's sake. What good are mirrored or parity storage spaces, if the file system on top can't exploit it?

Well, anyway, you can use ReFS on the client, if you really want to. Unless you're really ball breakingly depending on some of the dropped features, nothing speaks against it.

And oh, reading an article means squat. I'd suggest you try to understand what you've linked.

[jarrettwold]

I'm inclined to agree, in terms of of smartphones and tablets. By all accounts, it's wonderful and nice to use on a tablet and smartphone. That acclaim is pretty universal. I'm specifically talking about desktop usage.

And common users largely do write an email, surf the web and play some games. But, they also do a variety of other things. When they do those other things, they want it where they can find it and where they're used to it being. There's a reason Windows has been so successful since 95 was released, it introduced a relatively simple interface for doing a lot of tasks at once. It's longevity is a testament really, to the original design of 95. When we look at the keyboard, it's based on the typewriter which is a hundred year old design. There's a reason people haven't adapted to "improved" keyboard layouts. They've overcome an inefficient device with efficiency. So goes the same with the traditional windowed desktop environment.

When you drastically alter the interaction, it becomes a hill that a user has to climb and a mountain that enterprises and businesses have to climb. Windows isn't OS X or Linux insofar that it's user base is far more massive. The world's business is largely done on Windows. So when you tell the world that you're subtracting functionality and giving them something far more efficient they're going to be ****ed. People love their inefficiency.

The difficulty with assuming that people will "barely" ever have to see it, they will have to see it at some point. That assumption is also largely false. They will have to see it. From burning software, to my Mom's NEAT Scanner to a variety of other apps will put them in this hybridized world that is new and hasn't been seen before. Then they will have to work in it. Honestly, I've spent quality time with the Windows 8 consumer preview, and I'm having difficulty climbing that hill. That's a scary thing, really.

And as far as giving it a proper chance, people are busy. The chance it will be given is about fifteen minutes to a half hour for a regular user, until they're forced to learn it due to it being required in the workplace. So far, I've seen exactly zero people who have purchasing decisions on the 'net saying they're recommending it to enterprise.

I am taking my laptop over to my mom's place later so she can fiddle with it. Anyone have any recommendations for a simple batch of tasks to see if she can figure basic things out?

I think you underestimate the 'common' people. They are all buying smartphones and tablets. So all the gestures they are introducing in Win 8 might be much more familiar then think at first.

Also, if you look at what the mom's and dad's do on their computer, it's not much more then write an email, play I simple game and browse the internet.

Those people will barely ever have to see the Desktop version of Win8.

The only people that have to change their habits a bit more are the so called power users, and those are usually the people that b*tch the most, because they feel that they understand computers and their way is always the best.

If you give Win 8 a proper chance, most will notice that not that much has changed in the end.

We also have to realize that this is a BETA product, I do believe it's pretty much feature complete, but I think they will adjust the UI and efficiency of the Os much more

[Woelfel]

The ONLY place where I feel that Windows is hindered is not having the ability to have more than 2 metro apps at the same time.

I believe that AT MOST there should be a way to see 4 apps at a time

• 4 rectangles in corners
  

You can have 3 apps open in 2 manners.

• 2 docked to a side (side by side, the long way, how the smaller docked app is currently) left or right.
  
• 1 on either side of the "larger" app
  

You can 2 apps open in 2 manners.

• The way we have now.
  
• Side by side, split screen
  

There are problems with these configurations.

• Developers would have to support views for how their application would run in 2 more ways (corner, and a smaller-large view when in 3 apps). This will require them to develop 5 views.
  
• Screen sizes that would support those views (just like how we have screen sizes that support docking now)
  
• Microsoft made the UI to be moved around with their thumbs only (something that some people don't even notice). I have a way to move the apps around so you can move them around in the 4 corners view but it would require the user to not use their thumbs because it would be in the center of the screen. That would break how the UI was designed and MS is going for consistency, which I agree with. I can see 3 apps at a time working with thumbs only but still, it adds a complexity where using the UI should be simple. And what happens what you close an app and it goes to another view (3), how should it be shown in a way that makes sense. Those are things that I believe other users aren't thinking of when they see this UI.
  

Once MS figures out (if they haven't already and just need to test it thoroughly before Windows 9...not 8) how to do up to 4 apps at a time that makes sense, I can see a lot more gripes being gone as I feel that is the only "issue" with Metro Style apps. Other than that, Windows 8 is awesome.

[Cereal Bawks]

In case of moms et al, just throw them into the cold water. Mine sure didn't have much of a problem going from Office 2003 to 2010 at her workplace recently. And she's usually being "OMG WHAT HAPPENED WHAT DID I DO?!" for everything.

Microsoft runs usability labs, and if the changes they were making wouldn't be workable, they'd not be there.

The ONLY place where I feel that Windows is hindered is not having the ability to have more than 2 metro apps at the same time.

Ending up with an awm like window management would confuse the majority of people, and make a Metro programmer's life miserable trying to accomodate all possible layout scenarios.

What bugs me more is that I can only run Metro apps on a single display. I have two, I expect to be able to run two fullscreen apps, or four split ones, at once.

[Ci7]

*snipped*

bad idea buddy.

by introducing unsupported mode

[br0adband]

But why do we need this on 20"+ monitors with 1920x1080 resolutions. Keep it where its supposed to be, on tablets.

Because there are 20", 22", and even 23" monitors with that kind of resolution that are touch capable even now, and have existed for 2+ years now - I should know because I own one (HP TouchSmart desktop PC) but I don't have Windows 8 installed on that just yet, only on my ThinkPad T60.

If Microsoft was absolutely totally non-irrevocably forcing Metro down our throats, I could understand the confusion, the paranoia, and the outright whining that's taking place.

But they're not, because Metro is in there and hardly actually necessary - even though I can use it by touching the screen on my machine. I've been running the CP since about 30 minutes after the first download link went live (bless my high speed connection and the fast installation time off a USB stick) and I admit that I did see Metro quite a bit in the first few hours, but now that I have this ThinkPad T60 laptop set up the way I want it to be set up running the Consumer Preview, Metro is a non-issue, completely.

If it's an issue for you and others, oh well. Microsoft doesn't make products for individuals. People will get used to it as time goes by. A year from now nobody will even give a damn anymore, then we'll start having people whining and complaining about "the next big thing" soon afterward.

[Cereal Bawks]

bad idea buddy.

by introducing unsupported mode

What do you mean by that?

If ReFS works on the server build, it will on the client build. It's the same code. Any problems ReFS would make on the client, it'd do on the server under the same conditions. And if Microsoft feels it's worthwhile to be used on a server, where data integrity and availability is the key, it should be stable enough.

[jarrettwold]

Office isn't the point here. It's a fundamental change in the paradigm of computing. Much different scale of change and thought. They may have usability labs for testing. But, someone still has train their mom, their brothers dads and such. And everything I've read, and I've spent the last day and a half reading the reactions across the web... from small businesses to enterprise nobody is planning on recommending Windows 8. They will wait until Windows 7 EOL happens to move onward. As a business case that is potentially disastrous for this release and Microsoft.

In case of moms et al, just throw them into the cold water. Mine sure didn't have much of a problem going from Office 2003 to 2010 at her workplace recently. And she's usually being "OMG WHAT HAPPENED WHAT DID I DO?!" for everything.

Microsoft runs usability labs, and if the changes they were making wouldn't be workable, they'd not be there.

[TruckWEB]

it still say 100MB here

maybe because i upgraded Vs clean install?

I did a clean install.... I got the 350Mb partition.

[strelok1911]

Well, that's pretty weird.

Have you tried booting with another DVD/USB? Or perhaps another PC?

Tried even with the exe thing they offered for easy upgrade. did not work.

Though Windows 8 works great on my desktop PC.

[Stoffel]

Office isn't the point here. It's a fundamental change in the paradigm of computing. Much different scale of change and thought. They may have usability labs for testing. But, someone still has train their mom, their brothers dads and such. And everything I've read, and I've spent the last day and a half reading the reactions across the web... from small businesses to enterprise nobody is planning on recommending Windows 8. They will wait until Windows 7 EOL happens to move onward. As a business case that is potentially disastrous for this release and Microsoft.

But the change is not that big at all, specially now that more and more people are used to a smartphone with touch or a tablet.

Everybody keeps saying that PC's are dead and people will buy tablets instead for normal consumption. Well the OS that you will use on that tablet could be exactly the same one you use on your pc. So you adjust once and feel comfortable on a bunch of different devices.

It's only a couple of different mouse gestures and a different start screen, other then that you can use Win 8 just the same as Win 7, but you get a whole new app platform that developers can target. And they only have to write the app once and it will probably run on PC, tablet, phone and Xbox. How cool will that be?

[Cereal Bawks]

Office isn't the point here. It's a fundamental change in the paradigm of computing. Much different scale of change and thought. They may have usability labs for testing. But, someone still has train their mom, their brothers dads and such. And everything I've read, and I've spent the last day and a half reading the reactions across the web... from small businesses to enterprise nobody is planning on recommending Windows 8. They will wait until Windows 7 EOL happens to move onward. As a business case that is potentially disastrous for this release and Microsoft.

One should remember that feedback has usually a negative bias. Happy people are less likely to hail anything, than unhappy people are going to complain about something.

That and the Internet feedback has also a huge bias, towards tech minded people. And these often don't like radical change.

The Metro UI feedback in on its base level almost the same as back then with the Office ribbon. Everyone's like HUARGH DON' LIEK!

[TruckWEB]

My Win8 install is for "Canada", my setting are for METRIC and yet, the Metro Weather App keep displaying temperature in fahrenheit and I can't see how to change that....

[encarta]

Microsoft runs usability labs, and if the changes they were making wouldn't be workable, they'd not be there.

well then, looks like the usability team was constantly stoned as hell.

Because there are 20", 22", and even 23" monitors with that kind of resolution that are touch capable even now, and have existed for 2+ years now - I should know because I own one (HP TouchSmart desktop PC) but I don't have Windows 8 installed on that just yet, only on my ThinkPad T60.

Do you really think I want to have a 24" touch monitor on my desk? Think again.

[rfirth]

But why do we need this on 20"+ monitors with 1920x1080 resolutions. Keep it where its supposed to be, on tablets.

I'm using it on a 25" monitor and it's pretty awesome ;)

[Another Canuck]

My Win8 install is for "Canada", my setting are for METRIC and yet, the Metro Weather App keep displaying temperature in fahrenheit and I can't see how to change that....

Weather > Charms > Settings > Settings > Units > Celsius

The same goes for any app. The Settings Charm is for the app you're currently viewing. A lot of people seem to be missing this.

[Cereal Bawks]

well then, looks like the usability team was constantly stoned as hell.

Yeah, they're a bunch of wannabe designer idiots that don't have a clue.

Note: Sarcasm.

[Woelfel]

Ok. I'm pretty sure all of us help people (family especially) with computer problems and such. Guess what, no matter what, we will have to help them even if Windows 8 was without Metro. They run into a problem and we will have to help them. They want to do something they've never done before and we will have to help them. Now ask yourself this, if your parents are in Metro apps (which most likely they will be for their needs unless there is something more complicated), which will be easier to help them with? Metro, or Traditional applications? Teaching kids, which will be easier for them to learn AND retain how to use applications? I believe the answer is metro apps. Metro naturally keeps things simple for us that needs to help people.

[TruckWEB]

Weather > Charms > Settings > Settings > Units > Celsius

The same goes for any app. The Settings Charm is for the app you're currently viewing. A lot of people seem to be missing this.

Thanks but still.... WHY? Why do I have to change something that Win8 already knows? This is yet another example of why I say we deal with 2 OS at the same time. "Metro" and "Desktop". Don't think that because "Desktop" knows you're in Canada/Metric that "Metro" does....

[Calum Veteran]

Drink that Kool Aid. Having Apps run full screen or one quarter and 3 quarters is never as good as having a screen full of windows.

As i type this i have 4 windows on screen I cant do that with metro.

I can't describe how much I dislike that way of working. Juggling between many different open windows, having to look around on the screen for the one you want, having to move on window out of the way just to get to another one . . . is just inefficient. It also looks incredibly ugly compared to having two Metro apps with no chrome open. Chrome is horrible,

[Cereal Bawks]

Thanks but still.... WHY? Why do I have to change something that Win8 already knows? This is yet another example of why I say we deal with 2 OS at the same time. "Metro" and "Desktop". Don't think that because "Desktop" knows you're in Canada/Metric that "Metro" does....

Probably because the guy responsible for that app didn't think about this. Hit the feedback button and tell them about it.

[jarrettwold]

People may be more used to a smartphone which they carry with them in their pocket and operate with their fingers, and tablets that they read in bed with. Metro UI for tablets and phones looks fantastic.

Fingers and swipes are divergent behavior from what people do on a desktop. If you're employed or working on a desktop for productivity, typically the work is far more complicated than what you do on a tablet. I wouldn't dream of doing extensive work in an ssh terminal from a tablet. It just doesn't work well, I've tried. It's also a different mode of interaction, it's a mouse and keyboard.

So if you have two completely divergent modes of interaction it becomes a bit hard to justify to the average user that you're going to make them operate in a completely and radically different way. While write once, run anywhere is a godsend to developers it may not be to the user base.

Again, this is a business decision Microsoft is making. Everyone that is saying "well people just need to get used to it," they really don't. They can choose not to upgrade. This isn't like Facebook where people can't take their money and walk away, that's a free service. Microsoft has to rely on these people finding Windows 8 compelling enough to upgrade and purchase. So far the visceral reaction I'm seeing from everyone is really, really bad. This release is going to be driven by consumer demand, not by enterprise, that much is clear. And if consumers hate it, it flops and Microsoft loses A LOT of money.

Everybody threatens, "oh I'm going to go to Linux" or "I'm going to go to Apple." What really happens? People just skip the release, and that's bad business.

But the change is not that big at all, specially now that more and more people are used to a smartphone with touch or a tablet.

Everybody keeps saying that PC's are dead and people will buy tablets instead for normal consumption. Well the OS that you will use on that tablet could be exactly the same one you use on your pc. So you adjust once and feel comfortable on a bunch of different devices.

It's only a couple of different mouse gestures and a different start screen, other then that you can use Win 8 just the same as Win 7, but you get a whole new app platform that developers can target. And they only have to write the app once and it will probably run on PC, tablet, phone and Xbox. How cool will that be?

[NiGhtPiSH]

So far I am quite impressed with the CP x86. I installed it on my laptop (Asus K50IN, Intel Core 2 Duo T6500 @ 2.10 GHz, 4 GB RAM, nVidia GeForce G102M, 320 GB HDD) and so far it runs like butter. There are some quirks, but for a beta it's okay. The Music and Videos apps really need some tweaking, if Microsoft wants people to use them for everyday playing. They index the local media really slow and you have to have an xbox LIVE account to use them. There is no support for lossless formats and no graphical equalizer.

The Calendar and Mail look sleek, but they need to offer some more functionality, but there's a big thumbs up from for being able to sync with Google Calendar and Gmail. And I don't like the fact that I've got to be hooked on to Hotmail, and can't set my Google counterparts as defaults for these apps.

Legacy Windows programs run perfectly and even faster than on Windows 7 SP1 x86 and I rather like the new Aero skin, but it also needs some tweaking, e.g. VLC 2.0 looks perfectly on 7, but as I installed it on the beta it looked awful, I suppose some issues with Qt4. Office 2010 runs smooth and fast. I haven't still tested Photoshop or Lightroom, but I suppose it would be the same situation.

[Calum Veteran]

HAHAHAHA!!! Oh wow, you cannot possibly be serious with this rubbish can you? Surely you are trolling?

Do you know how quickly the eye can move from one source of information to the next? A lot faster than any hand movement.

Come on, be serious.

It isn't "a lot" faster. One can get to another window with a keyboard shortcut almost as fast; thus, productivity is not lost.

[encarta]

Yeah, they're a bunch of wannabe designer idiots that don't have a clue.

Note: Sarcasm.

No need for sarcasm.

My statement:

Windows 8 is a UX and UI nightmare. Plus, the metro side looks totally "flat". Look at the Zune software or the X360 dashboard. They're both metro, but they're beautiful. Windows 8 metro looks like it was made in Paint by a child.

Some user's answer:

believe it or not, i spoke to MS rep who was part of Metro design team. he was saying the exact same thing. he was bemoaning the fact that Win8 team went WP7 team for their Metro ideas instead of XBOX team that the Metro design team wanted them to get their ideas from.

Julie Larson Green should be fired for messing up Win8 with the bland UI and superbad UX