windows 8 Microsoft Drops Aero from Windows 8

[theyarecomingforyou]

What did you expect? EVERY Windows 8 thread becomes a flame war between those who love Windows 8 and those who hate it. I would post my views of Windows 8 now I've been using it full time for a couple of days but not going to because it will end up just been the same.

It's a real shame that a forum appears to be splitting into 2 camps, "I love WIndows 8" and "I hate Windows 8", the amount of crap regularly posted by people from both sides is completely unbelieveable!

To be fair there are plenty of people like myself who are somewhere in the middle. I'm looking forward to Windows 8 and will likely be upgrading but I am highly critical of some of the design decisions, especially the changes to multi-monitor support in the RP. There is so much potential but there are so many inconsistencies and annoyances. For instance, why when you side-pin a Metro app does it leave your desktop blank? Clicking takes you back to the Start screen and hides your app, then clicking the desktop tile brings back both the desktop and the app.

Microsoft's problem is how it deals with the traditional desktop user with a mouse and keyboard. The assumption should be that the desktop is the default view, both on logging into Windows and when launching apps; the opposite should be true for tablet users. On the desktop the start screen should be used for launching apps. That way when you side-snap a Metro app the desktop would appear alongside it. I have no problem with Metro apps but you're never going to get a feature comparable version of Photoshop or Cubase in Metro - it cannot replace the role of the traditional desktop. But this is Win7 all over again. Microsoft implemented the superbar for pinning apps but failed in the implementation of window grouping. With an app with just one window you can click on the taskbar button to restore it, yet when you add more windows rather than default to the last used window - as would be expected - it instead brings up a preview screen. And this was especially problematic in apps like Live Messenger and Skype which produce "fake" windows in order to deal with remaining logged in - it was a complete bodge.

Windows 8 brings a lot to the table but there are plenty of legitimate concerns that simply haven't been addressed. Don't get me wrong, a lot of the criticism is overly emotional, infantile and wildly hysterical but that shouldn't mask the legitimate concerns that people have. I expect it won't be until Windows 9 that Microsoft really polishes out issues and even then - like the remaining Win7 issues - I'm not hopeful some of the biggest annoyances will be addressed.

[Steven P. Administrators]

I can't see how a full screen Metro weather app is any better (except maybe for looks) than the Windows Vista/7 weather gadget that can be pinned to the desktop and always there at a glance in my case, where I have a dual monitor setup.

Same goes for most other apps, you're either trapped in that one app (or minimal view if it's snapped to the side) but on the traditional desktop you can have multiple programs running, more than Microsoft allows in Metro even?

[Steven P. Administrators]

Case in point:

Windows 8 weather app (even with two screens not everything fits?)

and Windows 7 gadget, displays at a glance what I want to see, I can click to go to the website and get all the other information.

[George P Global Moderator]

Because metro apps will also run on mobile devices they can't be treated and or handled like desktop apps. Running a number of windows like you do on the desktop with one over the other and overlapping and so on is not good for a mobile device, like a tablet. The winrt api/framework is also new and not yet at the level were MS can leave it without a number of restrictions. But these will all change, you have to think ahead, Win8 is just one step in the process, Win9 will be the next step and that one will probably change around the desktop even more. When hardware, battery life and the api/framework are all at the point where they're ready then these limitations will be gone, we'll get metro apps on the "desktop" and so on. That's what I expect anyways, and since MS itself has stated officially, many times, that the desktop isn't going anywhere then having it support running metro apps is the next logical step to take.

[George P Global Moderator]

Case in point:

Windows 8 weather app (even with two screens not everything fits?)

and Windows 7 gadget, displays at a glance what I want to see, I can click to go to the website and get all the other information.

The equivalent version of your weather gadget is the weather apps live tile. Who says you have to open the whole app if all you want is the basic info that the live tile gives, which is the same the gadget gives. To see the gadget, unless you have the old vista sidebar loaded and always on, you'll either use aero peak, or do a winkey+d to show the desktop, look at the gadget and then winkey+d again to bring back your apps. To that extent, looking at the weather live tile is a simple winkey press, look at it, winkey press again and you're back to the desktop. So, long story short, it's the same thing.

[jakem1]

To be fair there are plenty of people like myself who are somewhere in the middle. I'm looking forward to Windows 8 and will likely be upgrading but I am highly critical of some of the design decisions, especially the changes to multi-monitor support in the RP. There is so much potential but there are so many inconsistencies and annoyances. For instance, why when you side-pin a Metro app does it leave your desktop blank? Clicking takes you back to the Start screen and hides your app, then clicking the desktop tile brings back both the desktop and the app.

I've noticed this behaviour when you only have a single app open and snap it and agree that it feels weird. The alternative would be to have the Start screen filling the remaining space on the screen but I think they've decided that the Start screen should always be full screen. I can kind of understand why they've done it the way have but it does feel clumsy.

Microsoft's problem is how it deals with the traditional desktop user with a mouse and keyboard. The assumption should be that the desktop is the default view, both on logging into Windows and when launching apps; the opposite should be true for tablet users. On the desktop the start screen should be used for launching apps. That way when you side-snap a Metro app the desktop would appear alongside it. I have no problem with Metro apps but you're never going to get a feature comparable version of Photoshop or Cubase in Metro - it cannot replace the role of the traditional desktop. But this is Win7 all over again. Microsoft implemented the superbar for pinning apps but failed in the implementation of window grouping. With an app with just one window you can click on the taskbar button to restore it, yet when you add more windows rather than default to the last used window - as would be expected - it instead brings up a preview screen. And this was especially problematic in apps like Live Messenger and Skype which produce "fake" windows in order to deal with remaining logged in - it was a complete bodge.

I agree that there will never be Metro equivalents of the full versions of productivity apps like Photoshop and that's why the desktop remains. Remember though that the majority of people don't use these kinds of apps or only use them rarely. Most people only use their computers to access the internet, send the occasional email and sometimes listen to music or look at pictures. Those users could very easily stick to using Metro-based apps and never use the desktop again.

For everyone else, as I've said elsewhere, I think MS should add an option to boot to the desktop by default. They could bury it as a group policy setting if necessary but it would appease those users who spend most of their time using productivity applications on the desktop and don't see the need for Metro-based apps.

Windows 8 brings a lot to the table but there are plenty of legitimate concerns that simply haven't been addressed. Don't get me wrong, a lot of the criticism is overly emotional, infantile and wildly hysterical but that shouldn't mask the legitimate concerns that people have. I expect it won't be until Windows 9 that Microsoft really polishes out issues and even then - like the remaining Win7 issues - I'm not hopeful some of the biggest annoyances will be addressed.

I agree, most of the complaints probably won't be addressed. Of course, the main one comes from people who absolutely refuse to accept the Start screen and they will never be satisfied - the Start menu won't be returning and that's the way it should be. The smaller usability issues like the ones you described above could be addressed though and it would be nice if Microsoft did something about them. We've already seen them try to improve problems with hot corner support on multi-monitor setups so there may be some hope but I wouldn't put any money on it for now.

[Steven P. Administrators]

The equivalent version of your weather gadget is the weather apps live tile. Who says you have to open the whole app if all you want is the basic info that the live tile gives, which is the same the gadget gives. To see the gadget, unless you have the old vista sidebar loaded and always on, you'll either use aero peak, or do a winkey+d to show the desktop, look at the gadget and then winkey+d again to bring back your apps. To that extent, looking at the weather live tile is a simple winkey press, look at it, winkey press again and you're back to the desktop. So, long story short, it's the same thing.

Sort of... as I said I have a dual monitor setup and the Windows 7 weather gadget is always visible because that's how I placed it.

[jakem1]

I can't see how a full screen Metro weather app is any better (except maybe for looks) than the Windows Vista/7 weather gadget that can be pinned to the desktop and always there at a glance in my case, where I have a dual monitor setup.

Same goes for most other apps, you're either trapped in that one app (or minimal view if it's snapped to the side) but on the traditional desktop you can have multiple programs running, more than Microsoft allows in Metro even?

You don't need to open the weather app to see the weather though. The live tile will present you with as much information as the gadget but you can view it without having to go back to your desktop.

Of course, the live tile has the added benefit of acting as an application icon which allows you to launch the full screen app and view additional information if you want to. The gadget doesn't allow you to do that.

EDIT: Never mind, I see you and GP007 have already answered this :)

[George P Global Moderator]

I agree, most of the complaints probably won't be addressed. Of course, the main one comes from people who absolutely refuse to accept the Start screen and they will never be satisfied - the Start menu won't be returning and that's the way it should be. The smaller usability issues like the ones you described above could be addressed though and it would be nice if Microsoft did something about them. We've already seen them try to improve problems with hot corner support on multi-monitor setups so there may be some hope but I wouldn't put any money on it for now.

I think that Win8 could be the first Windows OS where service packs play a bigger role (not counting XP SP2 ofc). I'm sure they know they can't release it as is and then have it sit like that till Windows 9. I expect, or maybe hope, that SP1 a year or so later will bring with it a good chunk of updates/changes/fixes to the UI and so on.

[Steven P. Administrators]

You don't need to open the weather app to see the weather though. The live tile will present you with as much information as the gadget but you can view it without having to go back to your desktop.

Of course, the live tile has the added benefit of acting as an application icon which allows you to launch the full screen app and view additional information if you want to. The gadget doesn't allow you to do that.

EDIT: Never mind, I see you and GP007 have already answered this :)

I want to be able to place live tiles on my desktop though, I want them where I want them, not in some Start page. That would make it a little more productive.

[George P Global Moderator]

Sort of... as I said I have a dual monitor setup and the Windows 7 weather gadget is always visible because that's how I placed it.

Ok, that's fine really, I'd also toss out that if a user wanted he/she could have the start screen always on in one of the monitors while the other(s) are the desktop etc. That would give them the same type of setup, you'd be looking at all the live tiles at a glance in that case.

[jakem1]

I think that Win8 could be the first Windows OS where service packs play a bigger role (not counting XP SP2 ofc). I'm sure they know they can't release it as is and then have it sit like that till Windows 9. I expect, or maybe hope, that SP1 a year or so later will bring with it a good chunk of updates/changes/fixes to the UI and so on.

I hope you're right because Microsoft will find it hard to keep up with the update cycle set by Apple and Google on the tablet side if they stick to their 3 year cycle,

[jakem1]

I want to be able to place live tiles on my desktop though, I want them where I want them, not in some Start page. That would make it a little more productive.

I've seen others ask for this and I don't really understand it. The ability to use a live tile as an application icon that can be clicked on is just as important as the fact that it displays useful information. The only way to get to the desktop to click on icons is to minimise all windows but this would seriously break your workflow and you would then have to re-maximise any open applications one at a time.

Surely it's easier to have all this information and icons on a screen that can be accessed by hitting a single key on your keyboard? Or are you suggesting that you'd devote an area of one of your monitors to live tiles that can be clicked on without having to minimise other applications?

[Steven P. Administrators]

I've seen others ask for this and I don't really understand it. The ability to use a live tile as an application icon that can be clicked on is just as important as the fact that it displays useful information. The only way to get to the desktop to click on icons is to minimise all windows but this would seriously break your workflow and you would then have to re-maximise any open applications one at a time.

Surely it's easier to have all this information and icons on a screen that can be accessed by hitting a single key on your keyboard? Or are you suggesting that you'd devote an area of one of your monitors to live tiles that can be clicked on without having to minimise other applications?

Yes, I have two 23" screens and a space is set aside for some gadgets:

Edit: Why wouldn't it be more productive to make the actual desktop more useful by pinning live tiles on it, which could also be accessed with the winkey?

[jakem1]

Yes, I have two 23" screens and a space is set aside for some gadgets:

I think you'd have to accept that that's a fairly niche thing to do and that the majority of users (even if they have multiple monitors which most don't) won't leave a space free to view a bit of their desktop. Most users tend to run applications full screen.

Edit: Why wouldn't it be more productive to make the actual desktop more useful by pinning live tiles on it, which could also be accessed with the winkey?

As I said earlier, I think minimising running apps to get to the desktop would be far more disruptive to your workflow than simply having a fullscreen launcher appear on top of your running apps. Once you have a number of windows open it can be a real pain to have to minimise them all to get to the desktop because you then have to restore them one by one.

Besides, if you're minimising all your windows to get a clear view of the desktop, how are you any better off than if you'd just opened the Start screen?

EDIT: Thinking about it further, adding live tiles to the desktop would really break the purpose of the desktop. Although it's always served as an app launcher to a certain extent the desktop's main purpose is as a temporary location to store files. Unlike the Start menu it has always been available to save files to. Turning it into a Start menu replacement would confuse and break this functionality.

[George P Global Moderator]

I think if you see live tiles on the "desktop" it'll be pinned to whatever they make the taskbar into going forward. Which would be a good thing to have imo. Right now I hate the fact I have to have my pinned sites like FB open in order to get the icon notification or w/e it's called. At least with Live tiles down there I'd get it without opening anything which is a plus.

[Jygoro]

Very interesting read to understand why Microsoft will drop Aero-glass

http://forums.theregister.co.uk/post/1430387

[MorganX]

I think you'd have to accept that that's a fairly niche thing to do and that the majority of users (even if they have multiple monitors which most don't) won't leave a space free to view a bit of their desktop. Most users tend to run applications full screen.

Actually the number and size of his monitor(s) is irrelevant. MS won't allow live tiles on the desktop because 1) Currently Metro Apps don't run in the desktop environment and 2) Then they would be gadgets on the desktop and not live metro tiles on the start page. Remember, 90% of Metro app will be intended to be used across desktop PC, Tablet, and Phone. Preferably with as little modification as possible. At the least that is the case for the current Metro Applets. I have yet to see a full blown Metro Application tbh.

[MorganX]

Very interesting read to understand why Microsoft will drop Aero-glass

http://forums.thereg...uk/post/1430387

Reads like MS marshalling the troops for a pre-emptive defense of some questionable decisions. However, when you own all the toys, you can play whatever game you like.

>>or "based on Windows Phone 7", that couldn't be further from the truth.<<

This is contrary to Microsoft's own marketing materials. Clearly, there are internal corporate shenanigans going on. Regardless of how 8 turns out, it will be much more interesting to hear about that the internal KIN vs. Windows Phone 7 drama was.

[theyarecomingforyou]

Very interesting read to understand why Microsoft will drop Aero-glass

http://forums.thereg...uk/post/1430387

It's an interesting read but again that shows that arrogance of Microsoft's stance. For instance, as I have a 30" monitor I rarely use apps in fullscreen mode but instead side-snap with Aero, especially with web browsers. With other apps - like iTunes or Live Messenger - they're best at a particular size so I keep them at that size and navigate to them with the taskbar. In fact one of the best examples is Task Manager - how many people use that full screen? Being forced to do so with the Metro design philosophy is simply at odds with how most people like to use their computer.

Metro doesn't allow me to have a web browser on one half of the screen and Word on the other. Inevitably there will be some decent side-snapped Metro apps - News Republic is good in that format - but Metro apps simply don't work well with how I use my computer. Only those with a specific purpose - like Cocktail Flow - are a benefit to me. Microsoft is free to port Office to Metro but I'll be sticking with the desktop version. Metro shouldn't have been created as an alternative to the desktop with its own paradigm; it should have been an extension to the desktop or a replacement for it. At the moment it tries to take over but simply doesn't have the functionality required to pull it off.

PS - I think it's unlikely we'll see big changes coming in the service packs. However, it may be possible we'll see a Win98-style "Second Edition".

[grayscale]

^LOL

[moloko]

It looks ok for me. A bit plain but oh well. The icons much change and really stand out though. Or it will look to much like the online Outlook which I do not like at all

[remixedcat]

What did you expect? EVERY Windows 8 thread becomes a flame war between those who love Windows 8 and those who hate it. I would post my views of Windows 8 now I've been using it full time for a couple of days but not going to because it will end up just been the same.

It's a real shame that a forum appears to be splitting into 2 camps, "I love WIndows 8" and "I hate Windows 8", the amount of crap regularly posted by people from both sides is completely unbelieveable!

This is the main reason when I was testing the earlier builds I kept low key... now that it's more finalized I am very mixed on the whole thing...

I don't see what all the extreme hate was for metro, however I don't see how people are so crazy about using it on a desktop PC. It's kinda neat for the first couple hours, however I think it was clearly meant to be loved on a tablet. That's my final conclusion at a more final stage in the OS's development.

I would love to test on a tablet and it would prolly be lots more fun.

I am on the middle about it. I'm also sure it would be great on an HTPC, however the media apps suck at this point and that's a huge dissapointment becuase I thought it was designed for that as well... that seems to be neglected in favor of people just using streaming services over 4G or wifi on a tablet and not a standard local or LAN media playback. I was hoping for some really nice HTPC media apps for metro that would make it easy to use from the couch that would be better then WMCE. I wonder if J-River has thought of a metro version....

The start screen metro app selection really does suck at this point and this is disappointing because they had the developer preview what...almost a year ago??? yah think they would have way more apps by now and even some that would be better then android because of the increased screen space and information density as a result...

[Sammyinnit]

The OS that just keeps giving. Perhaps next they can remove all the colour and start using nothing but white, grey and black. Then the transformation back to the mid 80's will be complete.

[neufuse Veteran]

OSX is anything but grayscale... it's way more colorful and graphical then a lot of the windows apps out there.. they put a lot of work into the graphics end of it... something Windows applications to this day still tend to neglect