windows 8 Do you like or hate Windows 8?

[Dot Matrix]

Mass Effect 3, Portal 2, Assassin's Creed: Revelations, Dragon Age 2, Skyrim... and those are examples just from the last year and a bit.

Those are games. Not killer Win32 apps.

[Brandon Live Veteran]

Mass Effect 3, Portal 2, Assassin's Creed: Revelations, Dragon Age 2, Skyrim... and those are examples just from the last year and a bit.

Bad examples since those are DirectX, not Win32 :-)

BTW, Dot Matrix - MetroTwit and Paint.NET are also not Win32 apps, they're .NET apps. Not sure about Evernote.

[Noir Angel]

They run Win32 and Direct X code.

[BajiRav]

Win32 hasn't gone away, but it has stalled with developers. When was the last time a killer Win32 app was released for Windows? I could probably name all the killer Win32 apps on one hand. EverNote, OneNote, MetroTwit, Paint.Net... One short. That's all I got.

Does latest Lightroom or Photoshop count as "killer apps"? or the Zune player? or Chrome/Firefox?

[Dot Matrix]

Does latest Lightroom or Photoshop count as "killer apps"? or the Zune player? or Chrome/Firefox?

I'm talking about apps that are specifically designed for the Windows OS, and take advantage of Windows features and APIs. Many Win32 apps are just ports or just hap hazardly developed for the platform. Case in point: your browsers (minus IE), Skype (even though it is owned by Microsoft), Spotify (blatant MacOS port), Photoshop, etc. Zune is a good example too, but not many use it.

[MorganX]

I'm talking about apps that are specifically designed for the Windows OS, and take advantage of Windows features and APIs. Many Win32 apps are just ports or just hap hazardly developed for the platform. Case in point: your browsers (minus IE), Skype (even though it is owned by Microsoft), Spotify (blatant MacOS port), Photoshop, etc. Zune is a good example too, but not many use it.

I say this in jest Dot, you should be forever banned from commenting on the killer highly optimized for Windows, x64 now, app known as Photoshop. :)

[Dot Matrix]

I say this in jest Dot, you should be forever banned from commenting on the killer highly optimized for Windows, x64 now, app known as Photoshop. :)

HM. If Photoshop is now taking advantage of Windows features, you'll have to forgive me. I'm still using CS.

[Noir Angel]

I'm pretty sure Adobe in fact said that it was more difficult to get Photoshop to work in X64 mode on the Mac than it was on Windows which would if anything suggest that they're porting it the other way around.

[Wakers]

I'm really getting tired of people saying they want to be able to boot directly to the desktop. you haven't been able to do that since the days of ME and earlier. It boots the the login screen just like normal. what you guys want is to login directly to the desktop. Get your terminology right or you keep sounding like idiots!!! /rant

If you disable the user password it will log in automatically and therefore boot straight to the desktop..As has been the case since the days of ME and earlier.

HM. If Photoshop is now taking advantage of Windows features, you'll have to forgive me. I'm still using CS.

Photoshop hasn't been a specialised Mac program for a few years now.

[Dashel]

No killer Win32 apps? The main of course are games in general for me. AIMP and Zune are great, as is a very long laundry list of productive apps (VS, Expressions, Office, Skydrive, etc). The problem with reinventing the 'app' space on Windows is that it already has the best apps available. I'm honestly ambivalent on WinRT's success because of how it splits WP8 off. (Which has all the makings of a superior mobile OS for phones and slates)

I don't remember anyone here saying that the Metro equivalent of anything so far is even within throwing distance of the archaic Win32 version. Even Apple's most polished iOS versions aren't even close. Well Dot, at least you can admit that they feel like two OSs, which was my point. Its a Start . (heh)

[Dashel]

.

[MorganX]

No killer Win32 apps? The main of course are games in general for me. AIMP and Zune are great, as is a very long laundry list of productive apps (VS, Expressions, Office, Skydrive, etc). The problem with reinventing the 'app' space on Windows is that it already has the best apps available. I'm honestly ambivalent on WinRT's success because of how it splits WP8 off. (Which has all the makings of a superior mobile OS for phones and slates)

I don't remember anyone here saying that the Metro equivalent of anything so far is even within throwing distance of the archaic Win32 version. Even Apple's most polished iOS versions aren't even close.

This. Best game on Windows 8, The Walking Dead. Can't use Xbox Gamepad or it'll crash under Win 8. I may go back to 7 when Episode 3 is release if not fixed. Other than that, it's pretty good. The annoyances of switching from Metro to Desktop are minimal. I mean, just like the start menu you can get back to desktop after hitting start page just by pressing ESC, or you can always Win-D to launch and return to desktop. The importance of games should absolutely not be underestimated. There just aren't any great, forget about killer, Metro apps right now and none have been shown or announced which is a bigger problem. But Office 2013 though not Metro has the look and feel as does Office.com and they're pretty darn good. Really good. Metro Mail app useless with Outlook.com pinned.

The dev for the fitness tracking app I use says they have a Win 8 version running in their lab and a WP7 companion in dev. I assume it is going Metro or it would just be a minor upgrade. I'm in that app all day, and believe it or not, at full screen. That alone will make Metro my friend. Will love snapping it to the Desktop environment, lol.

[Brandon Live Veteran]

They run Win32 and Direct X code.

That's a bit of a stretch, though I guess it depends on your definition of Win32. I was thinking of the Win32 API, in which case those games barely touch it if at all depending on what you count (i.e. if you count CreateFile). Not really significant enough to call a "Win32 app" in my opinion. I guess you could say "runs on the Win32 NT subsystem," but that's more of an OS detail than anything to do with the app. The code the developer writes isn't aware of that. It's just a bunch of C/C++ using the DX APIs (and so should be portable to any place those APIs are exposed).

From other replies it seems there are yet other definitions people are using. I wouldn't call those "Win32 apps" though. Maybe "Windows exclusive" or "premiere Windows app."

[MorganX]

That's a bit of a stretch, though I guess it depends on your definition of Win32. I was thinking of the Win32 API, in which case those games barely touch it if at all depending on what you count (i.e. if you count CreateFile). Not really significant enough to call a "Win32 app" in my opinion. I guess you could say "runs on the Win32 NT subsystem," but that's more of an OS detail than anything to do with the app. The code the developer writes isn't aware of that. It's just a bunch of C/C++ using the DX APIs (and so should be portable to any place those APIs are exposed).

From other replies it seems there are yet other definitions people are using. I wouldn't call those "Win32 apps" though. Maybe "Windows exclusive" or "premiere Windows app."

I honestly don't think end uses care what API is uses as long as it runs uncompromisingly on their Windows PC. They shouldn't. The annoyances of task switching and the Start Page are there, but once you get moved over, they're minor. Windowing, MDI is still there for those apps. If Metro apps aren't as good as existing apps, they won't sell. I still see file management in the Metro environment and managing large numbers of folders and even tiles as something Metro will never be good at without third part modification. So I don't see the desktop environment leave for quite some time.

[Dashel]

We're talking current desktop apps, no need to split hairs. Hey, I generally agree that the computing space in general has stalled over the last 10 years and the majority of new innovation has occured in the mobile space. I'm all for innovation which I do agree has been lacking by and large for several years now (because we hit the first big plateau of power/usability/stability). From that perspective I can see 'shaking it up' to get us out of that rut. I'm OK with that. Denying shaking it up will cause many short term headaches is main falling down point or the driving reason for doing it.

Especially when people cite mobile OSs and app markets. The desktop has been moving away from 'tons' of apps for years, Andrea.

[LSlari69]

I personally like the metro design. simple. And I can really picture it working on a PC too. Just because your PC is all powerful, doesn't mean that all it can do are complicated stuff.

I personally like the metro design. simple. And I can really picture it working on a PC too. Just because your PC is all powerful, doesn't mean that all it can do are complicated stuff.

[PGHammer]

I don't 'hate' Win8 nor do I hate Metro. In fact I love 90% of it. I like Metro too, it has potential. Honestly, I can survive without the classic menu as well (if search wasn't fullscreen). I would still be giving up the 'recent' list and pinned content for common apps, but there is little I wouldn't sacrifice to not see that full screen monstrosity (which is always its most 'scary' and 'nightmare-ish' when you first hit it because the transition and contrast are so poor.) I'm frankly more frustrated by the guys distorting how obviously terrible and outdated it is than my own need to have it.

For example, look at the waste of space that is the new Metro Networking flyout on the Desktop. Give me something like that constrained with a single column of search results, cross indexed so the return is 'all' like Win7 and I'm happy. Allow the visual placement of a Start orb on the taskbar. Put the Charm's Settings 'gear' icon on the taskbar near the notification area (like Outlook.com). Simple changes really, I don't buy that its wasting so much dev time to preserve simple things like that, especially when the payoff of the new system will be years from now anyway.

I mean hell, you can't ask that Metro show the clock by default around here without some Mr. Helper shouting you down as a luddite.

The stubbornness is what I find most disgruntling, a couple tweaks and the vast majority of the grumbling would end. It would also better help us focus on Metro's actual state of development. Using the Desktop crutch is far too convenient. MS's history has always been giving you one generation to get used to the new while allowing the old (or a close approximation of it). Before you cite Win3.1 to Win95, that was a complete balls out change. You didn't get Win95's Start Menu but then get dropped into Win3.1 when you open an app or look for a file. Win8 is just cowardly in that regard.

PG loves to drone on about how compatible Win8 is. If they would have launched Metro that could have run them sans desktop, then I would have been impressed. Despite some backend changes, there really isn't much difference between Win7/8 desktop from an application perspective. If I have to use the compatibility tab, its invariably an older XP era product.

That's been my point from the beginning - however, a lot of the grumblers (not necessarily you) want nothing less than a complete separation - ala iOS, which is, in fact, the only OS that has been remotely successful at it. (Android - for all the prevalence in smartphones, has, in fact, utterly failed at it - while Honeycomb was the unique-to-tablets branch of Android, the two branches have since merged back together with Ice Cream Sandwich - which, along with descendant JellyBean, is, in fact the biggest threat to Windows as an OS - and it is why WinRT got developed.) However, Windows can't do a balls-out change - not only would it hork off even more users than the mere inclusion of WinRT has done, it would hork off most of the developer base - from free to fee. Still, they can't ignore the threat that is Android, either. Yes - the result is a hedge-bet and a bit of a kludge (which is exactly what I've been saying that Windows 8, in fact, is). however, it is, in fact a far more elegant kludge than even Windows 95 was. (Yes - Windows 95 itself was a kludge, and an elegant one for its day; not only did it run most MS-DOS applications, and most Win16 application, it actually also ran full-out balls-to-the-wall *Win32* - not merely Win32s, though it ran those as well - applications that used to require Windows NT. Before IE got its act together, the web browser I ran most in Windows 9x was, in fact, the full Win32 version of first NCSA Mosaic, and then Netscape Navigator, and the reason was rather obvious - stability, stability, stability. How is Windows 8 a far more elegant kludge? Besides actually having better backward compatibility with Win32 apps than even Windows 7+SP1 (a shocker in and of itself, since upgrades from older versions of Windows are notorious for having issues in this regard), it introduces a new API (neither DirectX or even .NET is a new API in and of themselves - both are subsets of the greater Win32 API - you can access either, or both, from WinRT as well), which hasn't been done since Windows NT (which is where Win32 began - Windows 95 came later), radically changed the UI, and despite doing all of that, applications could basically care less. Even Windows 8's critics admit that it's not really an application-compatibility problem that is driving them to write such vitriolic posts. It's about elegance and polish and aesthetics - which are darn difficult to achieve while under the gun - look at GNOME, or even the early 4.x versions of KDE.)

[neo1911]

Canouna is one of the biggest trolls of the internet. He likes to do striptease while holding back real goods.

[Ryoken]

I love Windows 8... on my Tablet.

I hate Windows 8... on my Desktop, and Laptop.

Metro and the Start Screen are great on a tablet.. very user-friendly and simple for a touch screen. But I find it's too simple and not that friendly on a desktop/laptop with a mouse and keyboard.

I understand the Start Menu had issues.. but the solution should have been to Fix it, not to throw it by the wayside.. The Start Screen, for search, for manually selecting a program is cumbersome with a mouse, especially on a large screen(s), where as the Start Menu was fast, convenient, and didn't take up the whole screen just to launch the calculator, or notepad, or something..

Simple fact is, I never want to be FORCED into Metro. it's unfortunate that I am in Windows 8 [ unless I want to hack around and such ].. which is why I will not be upgrading my computers to Windows 8, until either improvements have been made, there are more viable options available, or till I have no choice.

Also, I'm tired of hearing that I don't get metro, or haven't used it enough, and that's where my dislike comes from. I've used it plenty. I know how it works, and in what situations it works better. Those situations I don't find myself in often. With 2x 23" screens I run several programs at a time, maximized, windowed, and fullscreen. Rather than making my workflow more efficient, it hinders it. It takes more time to do simple things, and provides a greater inconvenience in the process. It's a real letdown, given how amazing Windows 7 has been.

[abysal]

I love Windows 8... on my Tablet.

I hate Windows 8... on my Desktop, and Laptop.

Metro and the Start Screen are great on a tablet.. very user-friendly and simple for a touch screen. But I find it's too simple and not that friendly on a desktop/laptop with a mouse and keyboard.

I understand the Start Menu had issues.. but the solution should have been to Fix it, not to throw it by the wayside.. The Start Screen, for search, for manually selecting a program is cumbersome with a mouse, especially on a large screen(s), where as the Start Menu was fast, convenient, and didn't take up the whole screen just to launch the calculator, or notepad, or something..

Simple fact is, I never want to be FORCED into Metro. it's unfortunate that I am in Windows 8 [ unless I want to hack around and such ].. which is why I will not be upgrading my computers to Windows 8, until either improvements have been made, there are more viable options available, or till I have no choice.

Also, I'm tired of hearing that I don't get metro, or haven't used it enough, and that's where my dislike comes from. I've used it plenty. I know how it works, and in what situations it works better. Those situations I don't find myself in often. With 2x 23" screens I run several programs at a time, maximized, windowed, and fullscreen. Rather than making my workflow more efficient, it hinders it. It takes more time to do simple things, and provides a greater inconvenience in the process. It's a real letdown, given how amazing Windows 7 has been.

Agreed. Any logical person would understand these same conclusions even if in their situation Metro works well. Anyways, what can you do, my only hope is that the majority of the user base doesn't adopt this; forcing MS to rethink their strategy in strong arming everyone into Metro and it's market place.

[PGHammer]

Agreed. Any logical person would understand these same conclusions even if in their situation Metro works well. Anyways, what can you do, my only hope is that the majority of the user base doesn't adopt this; forcing MS to rethink their strategy in strong arming everyone into Metro and it's market place.

What in the world gave you - or anyone else - that idea?

You seem to think that the built-in Store will be the only place you can get applications for Windows 8.

That would ONLY be true if you are running WindowsRT - and the only folks that would likely make THAT choice are the same ones that are currently running - or considering - Android or iOS; they are just as *locked down* as WinRT users, whether they realize it or not.

If you are running Windows 8 - you know, that full-fledged version for x86 (and x64) hardware of every formfactor - you still have all the same software you have had access to with Windows 7 - which can be installed the same way it was in Windows 7. (In fact, though I am running the leak of Enterprise-N right now, I'm posting this from the current version of *Waterfox* - you know, the x64-optimized and exclusive version of Firefox. That would not even be possible if Windows 8 were as locked down as you claim.

I have Office 2013 - again, the full (x64, in this case) non-C2R version - installed as well. Didn't get it from the Store, either.

What are you really trying to compare to Windows 7 (which you are so valiantly defending) - WindowsRT (which *is* as locked down as you are saying, and which I want no part of, but for other reasons) or Windows 8 (which is fully compatible with the software I ran on Windows 7, and which the Release Preview proves day in and day out)? Do you literally have a wire crossed somewhere?

[abysal]

What in the world gave you - or anyone else - that idea?

You seem to think that the built-in Store will be the only place you can get applications for Windows 8.

That would ONLY be true if you are running WindowsRT - and the only folks that would likely make THAT choice are the same ones that are currently running - or considering - Android or iOS; they are just as *locked down* as WinRT users, whether they realize it or not.

If you are running Windows 8 - you know, that full-fledged version for x86 (and x64) hardware of every formfactor - you still have all the same software you have had access to with Windows 7 - which can be installed the same way it was in Windows 7. (In fact, though I am running the leak of Enterprise-N right now, I'm posting this from the current version of *Waterfox* - you know, the x64-optimized and exclusive version of Firefox. That would not even be possible if Windows 8 were as locked down as you claim.

I have Office 2013 - again, the full (x64, in this case) non-C2R version - installed as well. Didn't get it from the Store, either.

What are you really trying to compare to Windows 7 (which you are so valiantly defending) - WindowsRT (which *is* as locked down as you are saying, and which I want no part of, but for other reasons) or Windows 8 (which is fully compatible with the software I ran on Windows 7, and which the Release Preview proves day in and day out)? Do you literally have a wire crossed somewhere?

Did you even read my post or the one I was quoting? Users are not given a choice whether or not to install Metro, and I think it's fair to say it's Microsoft's way of strong arming people into Metro and its market place. Otherwise we would of had choice, Metro would of been a separate shell or an add-on / replacement for Media Center perhaps. Both sides would be happy, well, except for the whiners.

"You seem to think that the built-in Store will be the only place you can get applications for Windows 8." You should stick to the facts and not make inferences based on your assumptions.

[jrolson85]

I wouldn't use Windows 8 even if they paid me...

[neo1911]

I wouldn't use Windows 8 even if they paid me...

Lmao it's not that bad. Au contraire, I would use it and defend all inconsistencies if they paid me.

[Ryoken]

I wouldn't use Windows 8 even if they paid me...

If someone is willing to pay me by the hr to use Windows 8, I would support that move :)