Do you (still?) find bringing up Charms with mouse to be clumsy/difficult?

[contextfree]

Curious since I've still seen people recommend using the Win-C keyboard shortcut, which makes absolutely no sense to me. Personally, I find just using my trackpad for the charms like Settings to feel very easy and smooth. The corner is the easiest spot on the screen to hit (after the pixel under your mouse pointer) and then rather than stopping and waiting, I use momentum to continue moving up in one continuous "swing around the corner" motion. I can see using keyboard shortcuts for individual charms (especially Win-Q) but Win-C is completely pointless because

1) It brings up the charms as a whole, you still have to use arrow keys to get to the individual charm you want

2) Then (except for Search where you can just type) you still have to select something IN the sidebar that comes up, so you still have to move the mouse pointer to the right side anyway (or use arrow keys which is even more cumbersome)

Just using the mouse / trackpad is much easier ...

So to all those who still don't like it, I'm wondering

1) Do you think of clicking on a charm as TWO motions (move to the corner, then stop, then move up to the charm you want) or as ONE continuous "swing around the corner" motion? The latter works much much better IMO

2) Do you like it any better in the Release Preview? (I think it's a bit better as the animations are faster, though still slower than I'd like).

[andrewbares]

What I find really annoying is that you have to right click the web page to switch tabs or type in a URL. pretty ridiculous.

Oh and my mom pointed out, "There's no clock!" The only way you can see what time it is is by opening the charms. They definitely need to add the time to the home screen...

[contextfree]

What I find really annoying is that you have to right click the web page to switch tabs or type in a URL. pretty ridiculous.

Oh and my mom pointed out, "There's no clock!" The only way you can see what time it is is by opening the charms. They definitely need to add the time to the home screen...

How would adding it to the start screen be any better? I can see the advantage of having a taskbar/status bar/etc. on the screen at all the time that would show the clock, but with it on the start screen you'd still have to go to a separate screen to see it, which is no faster or less intrusive than bringing up the charms.

I think the tabs/URL thing is a matter of browsing patterns. Metro style IE is not optimized for heavy tab switching, if you don't switch tabs much and want to be immersed in the page its approach works well, if you're switching back and forth all the time it gets very cumbersome, but you can still use the desktop browser, or another desktop browser and you'll probably be able to use other Metro style browsers that will better suit your needs. Personally I'm 100% on the desktop browser on a laptop and even on a tablet I'm about 50/50 desktop vs. Metro style depending on what I'm doing.

[subcld]

No i get used to it it becomes something regular to do on win8

[Dashel]

Yes, the hotcorners still need a lot of work when it comes to the traps and behavior. At least that is fixable by release.

I still dont know why they don't go back to the Pre-Mango tab behavior, it was much easier. The problem with Metro is that it is supposed to be the successor, so it needs to nail down these problems quickly. They can't just throw up their hands and say use the desktop or a competitor. I don't see how you can call for the death of the desktop yet are so disinterested in getting those bits into Metro. That a pretty nonchalant approach to such a fundamental feature as tab switching.

[contextfree]

Yes, the hotcorners still need a lot of work when it comes to the traps and behavior.

What is the difficulty you are having with them? Are you taking the "one continuous motion" approach?

The problem with Metro is that it is supposed to be the successor, so it needs to nail down these problems quickly. They can't just throw up their hands and say use the desktop or a competitor. I don't see how you can call for the death of the desktop yet are so disinterested in getting those bits into Metro.

Who is calling for the death of the desktop? I don't regard "Metro" as a replacement for the desktop, just an additional model. Much like websites and web applications have not replaced desktop applications (though people have been predicting that for a long time), but only supplemented them. Some people do everything on the web and barely use any local program but a web browser, some people still prefer to use local mail clients etc., most people use a combination.

[bjoswald]

It's not hard to do, it's just annoying and unnecessary.

[neo1911]

Yes, I still find charms bar clumsy/difficult/stressful. Instead of idiotic swinging of mouse around, they could have simply added a charms bar button on taskbar in place of show desktop button.

[Velox]

I actually rarely use the mouse to open the charms bar, then again I'm rarely in the Metro UI. I've just about got down remembering all the new shortcuts for everything though, so that makes it a lot easier.

But when I was using the mouse to open the charms bar, it REALLY sucks on a multi monitor setup lol.

[Argi]

Charms were annoying until I remember I could move the cursor to the corner to access the start menu. Then it was much less painful.

[contextfree]

Yes, I still find charms bar clumsy/difficult/stressful. Instead of idiotic swinging of mouse around, they could have simply added a charms bar button on taskbar in place of show desktop button.

But this would still require you to select the individual charm itself, so would be no easier than the current setup. In fact it would require an extra click (if I understand you correctly). And of course it would only work on the desktop.

[Mohitster]

I find it rather a hassle....it's always easier to click on a button or something which you know where it resides rather than a making a gesture (using a mouse) at a certain position on screen.....

[bogas04]

Take my screen estate and get start menu back! :p

[rfirth]

I find it rather a hassle....it's always easier to click on a button or something which you know where it resides rather than a making a gesture (using a mouse) at a certain position on screen.....

It's never easier to hit a button on the screen than it is to hit a hot corner - which is essentially a button with infinite width. The only problem is that it's hidden - and therefore pretty undiscoverable. But once you know it's there, it's easy. This describes most of the 'usability issues' in Windows 8. It's a learning curve, but not necessarily a usability problem. Unfortunately, people get impatient easily.

It's not really a gesture (in my opinion) - it's just you moving the mouse to a certain part of the screen. The movement of the mouse up afterwards is necessary anyway because you need to move to the position of the charm button to click it anyway. It definitely feels like a gesture, but that's only because they have streamlined it a little.

[theyarecomingforyou]

I've used Windows 8 for several months - started with the Developer Preview, currently running the Release Preview - and I still find the charms bar to be awkward and poorly suited to a desktop environment. It's very annoying that you have to use it in order to shut down or restart your computer; the keyboard shortcuts aren't a good alternative, nor will most users be aware of them. The hot-corners in general are clumsy, though the start corner itself is easy to adapt to.

I like Windows 8 overall but very much dislike the charms bar and the implementation of Metro (though the concept is fine). There is no reason that the taskbar shouldn't remain visible at all times, except for apps that run in fullscreen (like games). If that were the case then you wouldn't need the charms bar, nor the Metro task switcher - the hot-corners wouldn't be needed at all. And the taskbar is already suited to touch since Microsoft switched over to the larger icons in Windows 7. Microsoft has tried too hard to distance itself from the desktop that it has impacted usability.

[contextfree]

It's never easier to hit a button on the screen than it is to hit a hot corner - which is essentially a button with infinite width. The only problem is that it's hidden - and therefore pretty undiscoverable. But once you know it's there, it's easy. This describes most of the 'usability issues' in Windows 8. It's a learning curve, but not necessarily a usability problem. Unfortunately, people get impatient easily.

I think I understand the problem though - people are willing to deal with a learning curve, but only when the benefit at the end is clear and considerable. Unfortunately, Windows 8, even once you've learned it (and by "learned" I don't just mean knowing how to use it, but internalizing it so you do things without consciously thinking about it), is only a little better than 7 on non-tablets. The Start screen is better in some ways and worse in others, net better IMO, but only slightly. Metro style apps are nice to have, but on desktop/laptop more like improved gadgets than applications that have a huge impact on your workflow. The desktop improvements are nice but minor. Overall the benefits are just too small not to be drowned out by FUD about an apparent massive change (that isn't as big as it looks).

I bet Windows 9 will be much better received, not necessarily because it "fixes" things that are broken in 8 (though people will say that's the reason :) ), but because it will add enough cool/useful new stuff that perceived benefits > perceived pain of adoption.

[contextfree]

BTW, I found an interesting article from 1999 written by a well-known UI designer/pundit: http://www.asktog.co...oGiveFitts.html

Question 3

A right-handed user is known to be within 10 pixels of the exact center of a large, 1600 X 1200 screen. You will place a single-pixel target on the screen that the user must stop upon and point to exactly. List the five pixel locations on the screen that the user can access fastest. For extra credit, list them in order from fastest to slowest access.

No, this is not a trick question. And the first part should be immediately answerable by any interaction designer. The extra credit question is not quite as simple. But first, the locations of the five "magic pixels":

The prime pixel is located at the current location of the mouse pointer. Popup menus make use of this pixel, showing up relative to the mouse pointer, no matter where the user may have moved it. This pixel requires zero travel and is, in effect, an infinitely large target?you just can't miss it.

The other four pixels are located, on average, as far away from the mouse pointer as you can get. Their distance, however, is more than made up for by their target size, which is infinite in two dimensions. These magic pixels are the four corners of the screen. Throw the mouse in any direction you desire and the odds are overwhelming that if you threw it with enough velocity, it will end up in one of those four corners. This presupposes a properly designed acceleration function for the mouse.

The key to the extra credit question is in the user's right-handedness. A right-handed user can access, in order of increasing difficulty, and starting with the point already mentioned:

• The pixel immediately at the current cursor location: Click the mouse and you're done.
  
• The bottom-right corner.
  
• The top-left corner.
  
• The top-right corner.
  
• The bottom-left corner.
  

If you hold the mouse in your right hand and move the mouse, using just your wrist and hand, in the four different directions, you will see how the mechanics of your arm leads to this. The answers for a left handed person are, of course, reversed.

These differences are relatively small compared to the power of the "magic pixels." All four corners should be used and used well.

Question 4:

Microsoft offers a Taskbar which can be oriented along the top, side or bottom of the screen, enabling users to get to hidden windows and applications. This Taskbar may either be hidden or constantly displayed. Describe at least two reasons why the method of triggering an auto-hidden Microsoft Taskbar is grossly inefficient.

Now these should have started getting easier.

• Screen edges are prime real estate. You don't waste an entire edge that could be housing a couple of dozen different fast-access icons just for one object, the Taskbar.
  
• The auto-hidden Taskbar is entirely too easy to display by accident. Users are constantly triggering it when trying to access something that is close to, but not at, the edge.
  
• The Taskbar would not have any of these problems, yet be even quicker to get to if it were located at any one of four corners of the display. Throw the mouse up and to the left, for example, and you'll have a taskbar displayed. Fast access without the false triggering.
  

Interesting to see them implementing almost his exact suggestion (if you're willing to stretch what you call a "taskbar") 13 years later!

[remixedcat]

Thing is what is so un-touch-friendly about windows 7's taskbar? I think it's big enough for fingers. Android is still touch friendly and it doesn't have icons the size of texas! why can't there be something like the notifications pull down bar like android??

[contextfree]

Yeah, I actually partly agree that keeping the Windows 7 taskbar everywhere might have been a better design. It's difficult to compare directly though because I'm not sure if taking the current design and sticking the taskbar on top of it would work - they'd have had to decide on that at the beginning and design everything else around that, so everything might be different. I think they were a bit too caught up in "must feel totally new and reimagined!".

[rfirth]

Yeah, I actually partly agree that keeping the Windows 7 taskbar everywhere might have been a better design. It's difficult to compare directly though because I'm not sure if taking the current design and sticking the taskbar on top of it would work - they'd have had to decide on that at the beginning and design everything else around that, so everything might be different. I think they were a bit too caught up in "must feel totally new and reimagined!".

Agreed.

Although I think of it this way: I want a convertible tablet. I want to use it as a tablet, but later dock it and use it as a desktop or laptop. In tablet mode, I want to use metro only, for the most part. I don't really want to ever see the desktop or taskbar. Later, I want to use it as a desktop or laptop (keyboard dock!). I want to avoid metro apps and use only desktop apps. In this mode, I want to avoid metro task switcher and charms bar, although the start screen and live tiles are still good. This obviously isn't hard to do, but you have to know to do it or you will be unhappy.

It's like learning to use a hammer when nailing in nails, and a screwdriver for screws. You can use the hammer on screws and screwdriver on nails, but you will be disappointed with the results. But it doesn't mean you should carry two different tool bags, or worse yet needlessly throw one or both of them away.

There are two hurdles. First, the learning curve of finding the hidden controls. This is easily fixed with a simple tutorial. There are only a couple simple concepts to learn. The second hurdle is learning how to use Windows 8 effectively. Windows 8 gives you lots of options. You must decide which options to use at which times. Too often people are complaining about doing something on Windows 8 that they don't have to be doing. Some just like the excuse to complain, but some people simply don't know any better. It's understandable.

Lastly, we need the apps. They are coming. The store isn't yet open to all developers and we're a ways off from general availability and the tools are still beta. However, once the apps come, WinRT will be very interesting. It's hard to imagine now, but the difference will be night and day.

You shouldn't have to buy both a tablet and a laptop. With Windows 8, you don't. And if you invested all your money into a single tablet and keyboard dock instead of a laptop and a tablet, you can afford one heck of an awesome machine. And with increased competition in this space, prices will be dropping considerably.

[The Teej]

While moving a mouse is cool to bring it up, WinKey+C does an equally nice job ;)

[Calum Veteran]

I agree with the author of this thread. Using the mouse to bring up the Charms bar and to interact with them feels more natural to me, works well, and makes sense. But I can see why some people prefer the keyboard shortcut.

[subcld]

after using cp and rp for the first time today i noticed that windows logo animated when charm bar appears windows logo goes white then changes fast to the color of metro theme like the white moving from left to right :laugh: :rofl:

[rfirth]

after using cp and rp for the first time today i noticed that windows logo animated when charm bar appears windows logo goes white then changes fast to the color of metro theme like the white moving from left to right :laugh: :rofl:

Wow, you're right. It's a subtle little flash.

I like how you can move tiles on the home screen, and it changes the appearance of the (bottom left) start button.

[Dashel]

What is the difficulty you are having with them? Are you taking the "one continuous motion" approach?

Who is calling for the death of the desktop? I don't regard "Metro" as a replacement for the desktop, just an additional model. Much like websites and web applications have not replaced desktop applications (though people have been predicting that for a long time), but only supplemented them. Some people do everything on the web and barely use any local program but a web browser, some people still prefer to use local mail clients etc., most people use a combination.

Thats the issue, it requires two gestures, regardless of how you do it, with a very tiny trap zone for the mouse. Sure, not horrible on a single display, add another screen and it is anything but consistant. If you want to pretend its one gesture thats even more troublesome becuase then we have to do a gesture in a very small area of the screen (at that point, why not just scribe a reversed c that can be drawn anywhere, easy for mouse and touch).

A very easy compromise would to just give the entire right hand side the current 'hide taskbar' mode so the entire edge is a single hittable zone for the Charms bar on the desktop. Though that would probably screw those who like a right taskbar alignment.

Many are saying that at some distant point, Metro will superceed the desktop since they've turned it into an app of sorts. I have no issue with a hybrid approach, but per your example, I shouldn't have to open a web browser before I open Photoshop.