Shooting at Wisconsin Sikh temple

[KingCracker]

BTW a person at the fort hood shooting stopped the criminal from killing more..With a gun! and it was a gun free zone. If that person didn't break the law he could of shot more people. But that person had common sense and knew that a gun free zone to the insane mean nothing. Did the person that stopped the shooter hit innocent people? Nope. Anyway i'm done for a while. My views on guns are well known.

[Azies]

Here is an idea, label every single right winger as a potential terrorist, and keep an eye on them.

[Azies]

THIS is awesome king cracker. the government is waaaay out of control.

No, you nuts are out of control. The government runs the country, don't like it? Get out, and don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

[Mr. Gibs]

Wisconsin Sikh temple gunman named as Wade Michael Page

The gunman suspected of shooting six people dead at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin on Sunday was a former US serviceman.

The attacker, shot dead by police during the attack in a Milwaukee suburb, was Wade Michael Page, 40, police said.

US officials said Page had been discharged from the military after being demoted.

Police chief John Edwards said they believe Page was the only shooter.

Six people were killed and three others, including a policeman, were critically injured before another officer shot the attacker dead.

The wounded police officer was identified as Lieutenant Brian Murphy, 51. He was shot eight or nine times in the face and extremities at "very close range" with a handgun, said Chief Edwards.

But he was expected to make a full recovery.

'Frustrated neo-Nazi'

A civil rights group, the Southern Poverty Law Center, has described Page as a "frustrated neo-Nazi".

The organisation added that in 2010 Page said in an interview with a white supremacist website that he had been a member of the white-power music scene in 2000, and created a band called End Apathy, the Associated Press reports.

The gunman, described by witnesses as a bald, white man, entered the Wisconsin Sikh Temple temple in Oak Creek on Sunday morning and opened fire.

Authorities said the gunman had used a 9mm semi-automatic pistol, which was recovered at the scene.

Wade Michael Page reportedly served in the US Army between April 1992 and October 1998, ending his career at Fort Bragg, North Carolina.

A federal official told the Associated Press news agency that Page was discharged after being reduced in rank from sergeant to specialist, although the official did not give a reason for the demotion.

According to US media, Page was a psychological operations specialist and a Hawk Missile System repairman.

He was reportedly disciplined in June 1998 for being drunk on duty, and discharged for "patterns of misconduct".

Police said on Sunday they were treating the attack as an act of domestic terrorism.

But FBI Special Agent in Charge of the Milwaukee division, Teresa Carlson, said on Sunday night: "While the FBI is investigating whether this matter might be an act of domestic terrorism, no motive has been determined at this time."

On Sunday night a warrant was issued allowing the authorities to search Page's house in the town of Cudahy, a few miles from the temple.

Special Agent Thomas Ahern, of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, told ABC News that Page had tattoos which might suggest the attack was a hate crime.

But a member of the temple told CNN the attacker had a 9/11 tattoo on one arm.

The names of the victims have not yet been made public, although the president of the congregation and a priest were reportedly among the victims.

The temple in Oak creek was founded in 1997 and is said to have a congregation of about 400 worshippers.

Wisconsin, which passed a law in 2011 allowing citizens to carry a concealed weapon, has some of the most permissive gun laws in the US.

Source: BBC News

[xpablo]

It's all Obama's fault! Just like those would say everything was G.W Bush's fault for ever crazy thing that happened in America.

Sikhism is just another extremist religion, some are Terrorists,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Flight_182

[Mr. Gibs]

It's all Obama's fault! Just like those would say everything was G.W Bush's fault for ever crazy thing that happened in America.

Sikhism is just another extremist religion, some are Terrorists,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Flight_182

And what does this have to do with the topic on hand?

Every religion has extremists. In this case the Sikhs were killed by a white supremacist.

[Southern Patriot]

No, you nuts are out of control. The government runs the country, don't like it? Get out, and don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

The PEOPLE of the country are the ones that run it. The government would do well to remember that. Were it not for the consent of the people, there would be no government.

[guru]

It's all Obama's fault! Just like those would say everything was G.W Bush's fault for ever crazy thing that happened in America.

Sikhism is just another extremist religion, some are Terrorists,

http://en.wikipedia....ndia_Flight_182

you are kidding right?

[SupportGeek]

And since then the restrictions on airport security have increased.

And have done nothing to actually increase security, but have done PLENTY to violate individual privacy, and cause potential health risks (backscatter xrays) and turn the airline industry into a fiasco policed by the lowest common denominator, the TSA.

Going back to firearms, polls show that the vast majority of Americans - including NRA members - support increased gun restrictions (read: not an outright ban) and yet politicians are afraid to act on that.

First off MAIG is a well known, radical Anti gun group, and well practiced in manipulating the media.

Nothing in the poll is new, and is in fact already in effect.

Concealed carry, except in a couple of states are at the discretion of the Sherrif to authorize.

That said, I think AZ and AK are the only states that permit CC with no permit process, you may simply "carry" in those states. If you are a felon, you are already a prohibited person as far as firearms are concerned, you cant even TOUCH a bullet, even being in a domicile where the firearms are unsecured qualifies as having access. its a BIG nono.

? 75% believe concealed carry permits should only be granted to applicants who have not committed any violent misdemeanors, including assault.

This already happens, permits are not granted to anyone with any criminal history.

? 74% believe permits should only be granted to applicants who have completed gun safety training.

Again, this already happens, Sheriffs already require classes where permits are distributed.

? 68% believe permits should only be granted to applicants who do not have prior arrests for domestic violence.

This already happens, permits are not granted to anyone with any criminal history. Also domestic violence is 99.9999999% of the time accompanied by at LEAST a Temporary Restraining Order, meaning that person MUST, by law, surrender their firearms.

? 63% believe permits should only be granted to applicants 21 years of age or older.

Again, already happens, not to mention you cannot purchase handguns or handgun ammunition federally until you are 21.

So basically, everything they claim needs to be done, is already in effect, Its pointless posturing and outright lying to the media and public to make you think there are no laws at all here.

[Aethec]

A criminal picks easy targets. If he knows you're armed there's less chance hes going to rob, murder or rape you.

If someone points a gun to your head and robs, murders or rapes you, having a gun will not do anything for you. Unless you regularly draw your gun on random people who just happened to get too close to you, that argument makes no sense.

[Southern Patriot]

Wisconsin Sikh temple gunman named as Wade Michael Page

Source: BBC News

Not defending this person at all, but it is a good idea to take the SPLC's statement with a big helping of salt (even if it may be true in this case). They tend to label lots of different organizations as "hate groups": http://en.wikipedia...._as_hate_groups Many of them are, but some are simply people who happen to disagree with the status quo.

If someone points a gun to your head and robs, murders or rapes you, having a gun will not do anything for you. Unless you regularly draw your gun on random people who just happened to get too close to you, that argument makes no sense.

And yet, people frequently are able to defend themselves from these types of attacks in just the way you claim isn't possible. Of course, it won't help in EVERY instance, but I'd rather at least have the chance of defending myself.

[Rippleman]

To reduce gun related homicide, what steps/changes/ideas do the PRO-CHOICE gun owners think would work? I think even gun owners can tell you the system is currently not working in the USA.

[Aethec]

And yet, people frequently are able to defend themselves from these types of attacks in just the way you claim isn't possible. Of course, it won't help in EVERY instance, but I'd rather at least have the chance of defending myself.

So...you want a gun to be able to possible defend yourself against a crime that most likely would not happen if you didn't have that gun?

The reality is, most people who commit crimes with guns they bought legally would not risk buying illegal weapons. Legal guns give people an opportunity to achieve something they might want in a fit of rage or insanity. It's very easy to kill someone with a gun - just aim and shoot. Other lethal weapons make it much more difficult from a psychological point of view - run after someone, try to stab them, ...

[BillyJack]

For those who complain about the U.S. and guns, I suggest to do some research before complaining. Here is a page you can start with. Also learn about our history and your own and then maybe you can understand why things are the way they are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

[Singh400]

Army Veteran Identified as Suspect in Wisconsin Shooting - NYTimes.com

[KingCracker]

If someone points a gun to your head and robs, murders or rapes you, having a gun will not do anything for you. Unless you regularly draw your gun on random people who just happened to get too close to you, that argument makes no sense.

What? It makes perfect sense a criminal isn't going to rob or kill someone that might kill him.They always look for the easy targets. You don't have to draw a gun on everyone, simple open carry of a handgun would let any potential criminal know that you're not one to be messed with. Also concealed carry as well. Criminal comes to rob or murder you suddenly you pull out a handgun that he thought you didn't have, the odds are no longer in his favor, he either has a choice to shoot it out with you or run and most likely the criminal will run. Most people murders and robbers are not willing to die. When A gun is pulled out they tend to flee. It happens all the time in store robberies where the criminal has a gun once a second gun is introduced they tend to flee.

[thejohnnyq]

And have done nothing to actually increase security, but have done PLENTY to violate individual privacy, and cause potential health risks (backscatter xrays) and turn the airline industry into a fiasco policed by the lowest common denominator, the TSA.

First off MAIG is a well known, radical Anti gun group, and well practiced in manipulating the media.

Nothing in the poll is new, and is in fact already in effect.

Concealed carry, except in a couple of states are at the discretion of the Sherrif to authorize.

That said, I think AZ and AK are the only states that permit CC with no permit process, you may simply "carry" in those states. If you are a felon, you are already a prohibited person as far as firearms are concerned, you cant even TOUCH a bullet, even being in a domicile where the firearms are unsecured qualifies as having access. its a BIG nono.

? 75% believe concealed carry permits should only be granted to applicants who have not committed any violent misdemeanors, including assault.

This already happens, permits are not granted to anyone with any criminal history.

? 74% believe permits should only be granted to applicants who have completed gun safety training.

Again, this already happens, Sheriffs already require classes where permits are distributed.

? 68% believe permits should only be granted to applicants who do not have prior arrests for domestic violence.

This already happens, permits are not granted to anyone with any criminal history. Also domestic violence is 99.9999999% of the time accompanied by at LEAST a Temporary Restraining Order, meaning that person MUST, by law, surrender their firearms.

? 63% believe permits should only be granted to applicants 21 years of age or older.

Again, already happens, not to mention you cannot purchase handguns or handgun ammunition federally until you are 21.

So basically, everything they claim needs to be done, is already in effect, Its pointless posturing and outright lying to the media and public to make you think there are no laws at all here.

You forgot Vermont, they are wide open, here is a map to help:

[KingCracker]

To reduce gun related homicide, what steps/changes/ideas do the PRO-CHOICE gun owners think would work? I think even gun owners can tell you the system is currently not working in the USA.

I think the laws we have on the books need to be enforced first before added to any new laws. Everyone pro gun or anti gun hates it when people die. Just because I own a gun doesn't mean I like when people die. I just think that there are laws on the books now that doesn't get properly enforced so the government should start to crack down on the laws on the books now before enacting more. Disarming law abiding citizens and making them victems of criminals isn't the answer.

[Southern Patriot]

So...you want a gun to be able to possible defend yourself against a crime that most likely would not happen if you didn't have that gun?

Say WHAT? Are you trying to claim that owning a gun makes you more likely to be a victim of a crime?

The reality is, most people who commit crimes with guns they bought legally would not risk buying illegal weapons. Legal guns give people an opportunity to achieve something they might want in a fit of rage or insanity. It's very easy to kill someone with a gun - just aim and shoot. Other lethal weapons make it much more difficult from a psychological point of view - run after someone, try to stab them, ...

Most crimes committed with a gun in the US are done with guns that were illegally obtained (stolen, bought on the street, etc.) or illegally in the person's possession (convicted felon, etc.). The only gun crime where the majority of the guns are legally owned would probably be suicide (yes, that is counted as gun crime in the US).

[Noir Angel]

In places with the most gun restrictions there tends to be more crime and murder. How many murders do you hear about in states like Montana,Kansas,Oklahoma and so many other states. Of course they'll say oh not many people live out there, well yeah compared to a city with millions and millions in a confined area but the U.S isn't just cities theres million and millions that don't live in those big cities.

Patently false. We have amongst the strictest gun control in the world. 3.5x less murders, half the amount of rapes, and 40x less murders with firearms.

[theyarecomingforyou]

To reduce gun related homicide, what steps/changes/ideas do the PRO-CHOICE gun owners think would work? I think even gun owners can tell you the system is currently not working in the USA.

I've tried asking the same thing in other gun topics but most refuse to accept that anything needs to be changed. It doesn't matter to them that the current system doesn't work as they're so afraid of their government and of other people that they refuse to support sensible restrictions on gun ownership.

As for the shooter, it really isn't a surprise to learn that he was a US army veteran. The US army tends to attract a very poor class of people and doesn't do enough to look after the mental health of its personnel. The US military has a terrible culture, highlighted by the recent rape scandal. And then there are the high profile scandals we've seen over recent years, from ****ing on dead bodies, to the torture of prisoners, to stripping prisoners naked for photos, etc. The US military has the worst reputation in the western world.

[KingCracker]

Patently false. We have amongst the strictest gun control in the world. 3.5x less murders, half the amount of rapes, and 40x less murders with firearms.

You don't have the same culture as we do either.No and I don't mean gun culture. In the big cities here it tends to be filled with the gangsta and thug wanna bes and they are the gun totters there. In the country there's less of that and more people that cling to traditional American values and they own guns but don't go around acting like idiots.

I've tried asking the same thing in other gun topics but most refuse to accept that anything needs to be changed. It doesn't matter to them that the current system doesn't work as they're so afraid of their government and of other people that they refuse to support sensible restrictions on gun ownership.

As for the shooter, it really isn't a surprise to learn that he was a US army veteran. The US army tends to attract a very poor class of people and doesn't do enough to look after the mental health of its personnel. The US military has a terrible culture, highlighted by the recent rape scandal. And then there are the high profile scandals we've seen over recent years, from ****ing on dead bodies, to the torture of prisoners, to stripping prisoners naked for photos, etc. The US military has the worst reputation in the western world.

You just want to attack us for everything don't you. Doesn't your country have problems? Aren't you concerned with them? You go from talking about gun control to the military. What else do you feel like bashing us for in one post?

[FlintyV]

You don't have the same culture as we do either.No and I don't mean gun culture. In the big cities here it tends to be filled with the gangsta and thug wanna bes and they are the gun totters there. In the country there's less of that and more people that cling to traditional American values and they own guns but don't go around acting like idiots.

You just want to attack us for everything don't you. Doesn't your country have problems? Aren't you concerned with them? You go from talking about gun control to the military. What else do you feel like bashing us for in one post?

This thread isn't about problems in other countries it's about the shooting in Wisconsin so let's keep it on topic KingCracker :)

[SupportGeek]

I don't need to try my "damnest" to vilify you. You do a good job of that on your own, making idiotic statements such as "damn right I'm not going to go peacefully". Why shouldn't you? If the law changed and you were no longer allowed to own a gun, you should absolutely hand it over. By your own statements in the past, people give up their rights when they break the law. Either way, the fact of the matter is you say really stupid things and act all big and tough and when you get called on your B.S. you act like a wounded puppy "Omg you're trying to vilify me!" "Why are you personally attacking me?" "You don't even know me."

As much as I disagree with DocM and a few of the others about guns, they don't act like a bunch of idiots when discussing their points.

If the law changed and Americans were no longer allowed to own a gun, that law would be unconstitutional, (Against the constitution) meaning it is an ILLEGAL LAW. Anyone creating or enforcing that illegal law is a criminal and committing treason.

It is a citizens responsibility to stand up to a government that would create illegal, or tyrannical law.

Most firearms owners I know would at least have lost their weapons in a "terrible boating accident" by the time the government came for them.

[Wyn6]

It's all Obama's fault! Just like those would say everything was G.W Bush's fault for ever crazy thing that happened in America.

Sikhism is just another extremist religion, some are Terrorists,

http://en.wikipedia....ndia_Flight_182

Uh... no to everything you posted.