Reality check - Windows 8 was not made for you

[Guest LiquidCrystalMeth]

So you're saying that those behaviors can only be exhibited by fans of a product and not the detractors of said product? Man that's the least logical position I've seen in a while...

I've seen the same exact behavior by the negative nellies, except in the reverse. Blind bashing in direct opposition to those who hold the positive view...

To say that this isn't the case is well...I'm just flabbergasted.

Thats exactly what im saying

The "Windows 8 detractors" are coming from, in some cases, 30 years of working with Microsoft products, and 30 years of supporting them and the concerns with trying to explain this abomination to their end users.

Whereas the fanboys are coming form what 3+ months of fiddling with a preview release?

You tell me whos standing on firmer ground in that argument............

[PGHammer]

an iPad is not a work environment and can't be compared to a PC or workstation.

I can't see the benefits in dumbing down productivity by making apps full screen (without a taskbar). I still use WLM (messenger) because I don't want to have to use the Messaging app, which forces me to full screen (or a small narrow conversation docked to the side of my screen). You can't have more than two apps open and in view on the same screen, you can't make use of multi screen by having an app docked in the second screen and using another app on the first screen.. so how does this increase productivity over Windows 7 for example where the taskbar can always be used to switch programs and applications can overlap, and have more than two open at the same time in one or both screens?

And in what way are you any different?

You have a canalized, preconceived, way of doing things -and you don't want to change it.

The taskbar - The Taskbar is where it's always been - on the desktop, and can be used the same way it has always been. (I still use it in exactly the way you describe; Windows 8 hasn't taken that away.)

Windows Live Messenger - You are referring to a single Modern UI app, which can be rather easily replaced with a Win32 version (including the version of WLM you are running today). Don't find a WinRT/ModernUI app that suits you? Don't use any. (In fact I use *one* WinRT/ModernUI app - AccuWeather.)

WinRT/ModernUI (other than the StartScreen) can be ignored if it doesn't suit you. In fact, put the Desktop tile in the upper left, and merely hitting the Enter key takes you right to it.

[Guest LiquidCrystalMeth]

Didn't see this posted here but there was a good article writted over at the verge by david pierce that summarizes my opinion about the rtm version better than I could say it.... its all about melding the old with the new.

http://www.theverge....-next-windows-8

Id just like to point out for the trillionth time, and as an essential cornerstone, for me at least, that a desktop machine is not a tablet or a phone, which is all that article waffles on about

[winlonghorn]

Anyone else noticed the amount of peoples parents and grandparents using and loving Windows 8 lately?

Im going to have to email Steve Ballmer know of this extraordinary demographic spike.

I know my parents and grandparents hang out on the web looking for developer previews and release candidates from Microsoft, whenever i go over theyre madly downloading and burning ISO's instead of having tea and biscuits...

Another tale from the "Windows 8 fanboy: it never really happened files"

I didn't say that they watched for and installed it themselves. ;) I pointed it out to them and they liked what they saw from the screenshots that I showed them. Then I asked them if they wanted to try it out and they said, "Definitely! That looks cool!" So I installed it and showed them how to use it once or twice and they were off and running. They love it!

[ZombieFly]

Thats exactly what im saying

The "Windows 8 detractors" are coming from, in some cases, 30 years of working with Microsoft products, and 30 years of supporting them and the concerns with trying to explain this abomination to their end users.

Whereas the fanboys are coming form what 3+ months of fiddling with a preview release?

You tell me whos standing on firmer ground in that argument............

Yes. excellent statement. says it all.

[jagowar]

Id just like to point out for the trillionth time, and as an essential cornerstone, for me at least, that a desktop machine is not a tablet or a phone, which is all that article waffles on about

Why can't it be both? A dockable win8 tablet is exactly what I want. Something that I can dock when at home and use my big monitor/mouse/kb (and eventually external graphics) but seamlessly have the ability to take it with me on the go.

[Guest LiquidCrystalMeth]

And in what way are you any different?

You have a canalized, preconceived, way of doing things -and you don't want to change it.

The taskbar - The Taskbar is where it's always been - on the desktop, and can be used the same way it has always been. (I still use it in exactly the way you describe; Windows 8 hasn't taken that away.)

Windows Live Messenger - You are referring to a single Modern UI app, which can be rather easily replaced with a Win32 version (including the version of WLM you are running today). Don't find a WinRT/ModernUI app that suits you? Don't use any. (In fact I use *one* WinRT/ModernUI app - AccuWeather.)

WinRT/ModernUI (other than the StartScreen) can be ignored if it doesn't suit you. In fact, put the Desktop tile in the upper left, and merely hitting the Enter key takes you right to it.

So now 30+ years of supporting Microsoft (and other) products amounts to having a "preconceived" way of doing things?

Oh my, i can see that im just wasting time here amongst the windows 8 fanboy chosen few

Opening door, experiencing reality, later....

[Dot Matrix]

how is releasing a badly implemented 2 faced UI after the gains of windows 7 not badly implemented? :s where is the other direction? it's taken them this long to make this switch, you really think they have a backup plan (for a desktop) other than to regress to what they had working before? Sure, windows 8 may fail, but i can guarantee that if it does, the only direction they'll go in will be to fall back on what they had before (as far as non-touch screens are concerned)

we should lock this thread now, unlock it in a year and then notify everyone in it to come back and see how the land lies ;)

Because it works the same way Windows 95 did with phasing out DOS. Two environments, one OS. They cannot fall back for a few reasons: the legacy menu cannot show Modern apps, and two, Microsoft cannot just abandon those that invested in those apps. Windows 9 is a guaranteed evolution of Windows 8, Modern included.

[winlonghorn]

Yes. excellent statement. says it all.

Sorry to say, but I am not a fanboy and I haven't used Windows for only 3+ months in preview form! ;) I am an IT Pro/Developer that has been working with Windows computers for 11 years now! So that argument fails too!

[The King of GnG]

So, after almost 2 decades of progressive evolution for its OS functionalities, Microsoft is now downgrading such functionalities to try and sell its main product only to a minority of the non-PC oriented userbase of Windows?

Oh wow, that's really refreshing, inspiring and interesting. At least now I know that Ballmer is the one that could really succeed in what Gates could have never achieved: bringing Microsoft to its knees....

[jagowar]

Sorry to say, but I am not a fanboy and I haven't used Windows for only 3+ months in preview form! ;) I am an IT Pro/Developer that has been working with Windows computers for 11 years now! So that argument fails too!

I have been "supporting" windows for 20 years and am very excited to push people to winRT especially my more problematic users.... the ones who managed to still install malware/viruses after I locked their computers down or call saying I installed X app and it doesn't work, or my computer's slow. There are a millions "issues" I have had to deal with over the years and winRT will solve most of them. I will have to spend some time with them initially to get them used to it and setup their account but in the long run will be FAR better for it.

[ZombieFly]

Opening door, experiencing reality, later....

time will tell. there are enough of us working out there that will not accept these changes (for reasons beyond our control) in corporate environments etc. Given the restrictive internet policies of many corporations, you have to wonder how a content driven OS is going to work without any content getting through. Obviously we are idiots for identifying these issues and should not voice opinion as we have no clue about how things work/will happen, as we've not seen it all before....

if this windows8 thing was packed full of innovation and genius, then yes, it'd be great. It isn't, its a last minute botch job to try and grab some market share that was missed by a company that's consistently failed to deliver anything in time with the shifts of technology. they once ruled in the smartphone market then they proceeded to ignore the need for change and drove the platform into the floor, watching others take their foundations and build on it.

This is not the golden chalice of innovation people think it is. look at windows phone, it's doing very little in the marketplace. It's another case of this stupid interface being pushed purely on it's design merit.

Sorry to say, but I am not a fanboy and I haven't used Windows for only 3+ months in preview form! ;) I am an IT Pro/Developer that has been working with Windows computers for 11 years now! So that argument fails too!

like i said, lets reconvene in a year and we can discuss where you went wrong! :p :p (joke)

[threetonesun]

Why can't it be both? A dockable win8 tablet is exactly what I want. Something that I can dock when at home and use my big monitor/mouse/kb (and eventually external graphics) but seamlessly have the ability to take it with me on the go.

I agree with you on this, although I disagree that Windows 8 is the right solution for this problem.

I also don't think the market truly wants dockable tablets, although I could be wrong. In reality, I think people would be happier if they had a tablet and a desktop, and all the information that was shared between the two magically synced.

[ToneKnee]

Yet another topic bashing Windows 8. Can a mod just put all these threads into one topic and put it in a quiet area of the forum where people can bitch about it please?

[PGHammer]

Thats exactly what im saying

The "Windows 8 detractors" are coming from, in some cases, 30 years of working with Microsoft products, and 30 years of supporting them and the concerns with trying to explain this abomination to their end users.

Whereas the fanboys are coming form what 3+ months of fiddling with a preview release?

You tell me whos standing on firmer ground in that argument............

Please - now you are basically accusing us of being n00bs because we don't share your canalized extremist (in fact, downright fringe) POV.

Before the Developer Preview I not only go back to Windows 1.0, I go all the way back to the mainframe (in short, my IT experience predates the PC).

I have seen this sort of attitude before - in the mainframe world (in fact, at IBM); despite having introduced the PC to corporate world, they had no confidence that it would even succeed there, let alone anywhere else. Take a look around - I'd say we have evidence conclusive that they were pretty much *wrong* - if anything, it's mainframes that are a niche - in fact, they are a smaller niche than Linux.

I've seen it in PC computing as well, from IBM (again), from OEMs/IHVs, from Microsoft itself, and even from Apple. When you are arrogant, your customers will reward you with a marketing biotch-slappage of monstrous proportions. Worse, you yourself are absolutely underestimating your customers. You are thinking that you're irreplaceable. Bad news - you aren't. *Nobody is irreplaceable* - and that is especially true in IT. (All of IT - hardware/software/operating systems/applications/games/etc.) Everything competes - even things you wouldn't think would even be close to competing. I can't afford to ignore Android - too many of the folks I support use it (at the least in smartphones, if not and/or on tablets). Same applies to iOS - that means I can't ignore iPads or iPods, either. Look at pre-teens and teens today - most are using tablets and slates - which means that by and large they are NOT running Windows. If at some point they DO migrate to Windows, more likely than not, it won't be Windows 7 - the user experience will be too alien to what they are used to. Windows 8, on the other hand - entirely due to Modern UI - has a multimodal multiple-input UX - just as Android does. The learning curve from Android is negligible. However, Windows 8 has an ace in the hole - that extremely large Win32 application, game, and development software library that exists nowhere else. And Windows 8 is completely compatible with all of it.

Do you want to find yourself steamrollered and covered in maple syrup?

I certainly don't - which is why I keep my eyes open and look at exactly what the folks I support (they are called *customers*) are actually doing.

[ZombieFly]

Yet another topic bashing Windows 8. Can a mod just put all these threads into one topic and put it in a quiet area of the forum where people can bitch about it please?

if you actually read the thread, you'd see that there has been debate and discussion. isn't that the purpose of the internet and forums such as this..

thanks for your input, but you added nothing

Do you want to find yourself steamrollered and covered in maple syrup?

yes please! how do i do that? :D :D :D

[Shane Nokes]

Thats exactly what im saying

The "Windows 8 detractors" are coming from, in some cases, 30 years of working with Microsoft products, and 30 years of supporting them and the concerns with trying to explain this abomination to their end users.

Whereas the fanboys are coming form what 3+ months of fiddling with a preview release?

You tell me whos standing on firmer ground in that argument............

Ok I'm game :)

I'm 31. I started playing with PC's when I was 3. I was supporting DOS environments (in a basic fashion) for my small town school that didn't have an IT staff, but well over 30 students PC's geared for specific reading test applications when I was 7. I moved on to knowing how to operate Apple II's shortly after, and then onto Commodore 64.

I left high school early to work for the State of Washington. I then started and ran my own PC business building and repairing PC's. From XP on I've been in every tech beta, including some of the more hush hush groups. I've spent the last 4 years working almost exclusively at Microsoft (minus a brief one week stint doing some work for Comcast).

I have direct MS experience, direct PC experience spanning 25 years, and I love Windows 8.

So what does that do to your theory? I ask this honestly since you proposed that anyone who is big into IT hates it...

EDIT- PGHammer - Bingo. Real IT people embrace platforms, even if they are not their favorites as we need to be ready for any and all situations. Change is a constant in everything, especially in our business.

To the detractors, if you can't roll with changes and embrace them and work with them, then why are you in IT to begin with? ;)

[jagowar]

I agree with you on this, although I disagree that Windows 8 is the right solution for this problem.

I also don't think the market truly wants dockable tablets, although I could be wrong. In reality, I think people would be happier if they had a tablet and a desktop, and all the information that was shared between the two magically synced.

We will see soon enough because that's the apple model.... To me the difference there is only having to buy one expensive device vs two..... it's all about the money to me and lets me buy a more expensive/powerful tablet than a macbook and ipad (using the apple example).

[ZombieFly]

i think you've told us the answer yourself:

I've spent the last 4 years working almost exclusively at Microsoft (minus a brief one week stint doing some work for Comcast).

they've replaced your brain with a "Modern thinking Interface". :D

i too like windows8, or at least the concept of it (it's too basic/flawed at the moment) for mobile computers with touch screens. It has no place anywhere else at this point in it's lifecycle and in the state that it's in. This has been my argument from the start. still nobody has been able to answer the question of why it's there satisfactorily. It's a pointless argument at this stage as none of us know what will happen.

[threetonesun]

We will see soon enough because that's the apple model.... To me the difference there is only having to buy one expensive device vs two..... it's all about the money to me and lets me buy a more expensive/powerful tablet than a macbook and ipad (using the apple example).

Well, iMac (or Mac Pro) and iPad. I guess the real issue is what's the lowest common denominator in terms of power and interface you want to shoot for. I'm slightly concerned that Microsoft might be going too far down the casual user path with it's goal to unify the Xbox / phone / tablet / desktop. I think there needs to remain some division there... they're clearly not all the same device.

[Guest LiquidCrystalMeth]

Please - now you are basically accusing us of being n00bs because we don't share your canalized extremist (in fact, downright fringe) POV.

Before the Developer Preview I not only go back to Windows 1.0, I go all the way back to the mainframe (in short, my IT experience predates the PC).

I have seen this sort of attitude before - in the mainframe world (in fact, at IBM); despite having introduced the PC to corporate world, they had no confidence that it would even succeed there, let alone anywhere else. Take a look around - I'd say we have evidence conclusive that they were pretty much *wrong* - if anything, it's mainframes that are a niche - in fact, they are a smaller niche than Linux.

I've seen it in PC computing as well, from IBM (again), from OEMs/IHVs, from Microsoft itself, and even from Apple. When you are arrogant, your customers will reward you with a marketing biotch-slappage of monstrous proportions. Worse, you yourself are absolutely underestimating your customers. You are thinking that you're irreplaceable. Bad news - you aren't. *Nobody is irreplaceable* - and that is especially true in IT. (All of IT - hardware/software/operating systems/applications/games/etc.) Everything competes - even things you wouldn't think would even be close to competing. I can't afford to ignore Android - too many of the folks I support use it (at the least in smartphones, if not and/or on tablets). Same applies to iOS - that means I can't ignore iPads or iPods, either. Look at pre-teens and teens today - most are using tablets and slates - which means that by and large they are NOT running Windows. If at some point they DO migrate to Windows, more likely than not, it won't be Windows 7 - the user experience will be too alien to what they are used to. Windows 8, on the other hand - entirely due to Modern UI - has a multimodal multiple-input UX - just as Android does. The learning curve from Android is negligible. However, Windows 8 has an ace in the hole - that extremely large Win32 application, game, and development software library that exists nowhere else. And Windows 8 is completely compatible with all of it.

Do you want to find yourself steamrollered and covered in maple syrup?

I certainly don't - which is why I keep my eyes open and look at exactly what the folks I support (they are called *customers*) are actually doing.

Where did i call anyone a n00b

Please read carefully before making that leap

i Said "Whereas the fanboys are coming form what 3+ months of fiddling with a preview release?"

This means that the fanboys Pro Windows 8 stance comes from only 3+ months of toying about with a preview version.

It doesnt mean, and no sane person would think or take it mean i was saying that those peoples computing experience was only 3 months...

I was using that as a contrast from having some of us who dont like it having 30+ years of MS and other OS experience

Between the two contrasting statements theres no way to take that as me accusing anyone of having only 3 months PC experience.............

[rhianntp]

correct, it was not made for me or most of the windows users out there...it wss made for hipsters who have a short attention span and a credit card burning a hole in their pocket for all the crap in the MS store...

"im a pc, and windows 8 was not my idea"

[Shane Nokes]

i think you've told us the answer yourself:

they've replaced your brain with a "Modern thinking Interface". :D

i too like windows8, or at least the concept of it (it's too basic/flawed at the moment) for mobile computers with touch screens. It has no place anywhere else at this point in it's lifecycle and in the state that it's in. This has been my argument from the start. still nobody has been able to answer the question of why it's there satisfactorily. It's a pointless argument at this stage as none of us know what will happen.

LOL. I'll admit you got me to chuckle there.

I think that would count if I'd even touched Windows 8 while I was there ;)

I worked in Xbox, so while I guess that counts a little bit since the interface of late has moved to a more 'Modern UI' feel not sure that it applies. ;)

Heck I barely even touched Win8 until recently. I do believe that once they start rolling out the updates and ironing out the kinks and apps start filling the Windows Store people might like it more. :)

correct, it was not made for me or most of the windows users out there...it wss made for hipsters who have a short attention span and a credit card burning a hole in their pocket for all the crap in the MS store...

"im a pc, and windows 8 was not my idea"

Considering most apps are free (even the good ones) how does that work?

I also doubt anyone would ever call me a hipster...nerd maybe, geek sure, gamer yes, but hipster? I think anyone who knows me would spit out laughing at that description of me. ;)

Then again...I was rocking a Zune when they first launched, so I was using Metro/Modern 'before it was cool.' :p

[Deihmos]

I am not a power user and I dislike Windows 8. Things that were once simple now requires more steps or was completely removed.

[threetonesun]

correct, it was not made for me or most of the windows users out there...it wss made for hipsters who have a short attention span and a credit card burning a hole in their pocket for all the crap in the MS store...

"im a pc, and windows 8 was not my idea"

Hipsters not using Macs? I call shenanigans.