Reality check - Windows 8 was not made for you

[Steven P. Administrators]

But didn't Windows 95 allow for a DOS window mode? Modern UI doesn't.

[nekkidtruth]

you don't see what's wrong here? the fix for using microsoft's new direction is to avoid the default user account setup and bypass the MAIN FEATURES of the new OS with a 3rd party tool to emulate what it did before? YOU DON'T SEE? jesus

:D

This is what irritates me the most about the arguments. "Don't use it" or "You don't have to use it" etc. Those are horrible rebuttals that are about as useful as a nipple on an elbow. Obviously people are aware they don't HAVE to use Windows 8. No one is forcing it on anyone. That being said, why shouldn't people express their concerns or disappointments or downright obnoxious opinions on how horribly Windows 8 was put together?

Ultimately, the biggest concern and the issue most of the anti Windows 8 folk have been expressing is the fact that they're forcing two different environments onto the user with no choice. Using silly comments like "Don't use it" and "Well no one is forcing you" does absolutely nothing to negate the disorganized cluster impression that Windows 8 gives off.

Side note: I don't even like using the term anti Windows 8. At least not for myself. I'm not anti Windows 8. However, I do have issues with it in it's current state and because of that, I'm unlikely to migrate to it.

[Shane Nokes]

But didn't Windows 95 allow for a DOS window mode? Modern UI doesn't.

It allowed for it with specific apps that could take advantage of it. There weren't that many DOS apps that would behave well or even at all in Windowed mode.

Also (and I'm not saying this is optimal) but if you have more than one monitor you can use both environments at the same time if I'm not mistaken. I'm not running a multi-mon setup right now (long story) but suffice it to say last I heard you could run desktop and modern at the same time with a multi-mon setup.

This is what irritates me the most about the arguments. "Don't use it" or "You don't have to use it" etc. Those are horrible rebuttals that are about as useful as a nipple on an elbow. Obviously people are aware they don't HAVE to use Windows 8. No one is forcing it on anyone. That being said, why shouldn't people express their concerns or disappointments or downright obnoxious opinions on how horribly Windows 8 was put together?

Ultimately, the biggest concern and the issue most of the anti Windows 8 folk have been expressing is the fact that they're forcing two different environments onto the user with no choice. Using silly comments like "Don't use it" and "Well no one is forcing you" does absolutely nothing to negate the disorganized cluster impression that Windows 8 gives off.

Side note: I don't even like using the term anti Windows 8. At least not for myself. I'm not anti Windows 8. However, I do have issues with it in it's current state and because of that, I'm unlikely to migrate to it.

On the other side of that why can't those of us who do like have our opinion without people getting angry with us?

Both sides for the most part are doing the same thing. It reminds me of political debates. Both sides just argue with each other not realizing that it's really ok to have opposing viewpoints and actually *gasp* talk about them ;)

[Steven P. Administrators]

It allowed for it with specific apps that could take advantage of it. There weren't that many DOS apps that would behave well or even at all in Windowed mode.

Also (and I'm not saying this is optimal) but if you have more than one monitor you can use both environments at the same time if I'm not mistaken. I'm not running a multi-mon setup right now (long story) but suffice it to say last I heard you could run desktop and modern at the same time with a multi-mon setup.

Except when you open another Modern UI app, and then the app you're using on the second screen will disappear or snap to the first screen (where it opens). I already tried this and it isn't really a good implementation.

It doesn't look like you can snap a modern UI app to the second screen and have one open on the first screen either.

[NinjaGinger]

My 82 year old mother tried Windows 8 and within 3 days, asked me to put ( a real operating system ) on her PC. and she aint a power user! Or is she totally wrong?

[cork1958]

Personally,

I think all this talk about Windows is just plain BS anyway. It's just another OS that takes a little getting used to, which can be a bad thing for MS, especially for the general user. That's exactly what caused Vista to be such a flop!

I can take it or leave it and for now, I'm going to leave it!!

[Tilt090]

I say windows 8 will be a superhit simply because of its porno appeal the fragmented cumbersome ui mess wll be easily covered ;-) :woot:

[Steven P. Administrators]

Personally,

I think all this talk about Windows is just plain BS anyway. It's just another OS that takes a little getting used to, which can be a bad thing for MS, especially for the general user. That's exactly what caused Vista to be such a flop!

I can take it or leave it and for now, I'm going to leave it!!

Thanks for your opinion, but there's nothing wrong with pointing out why people don't like it (or some aspects of it) :p

[Shane Nokes]

Except when you open another Modern UI app, and then the app you're using on the second screen will disappear or snap to the first screen (where it opens). I already tried this and it isn't really a good implementation.

It doesn't look like you can snap a modern UI app to the second screen and have one open on the first screen either.

BTW, evidently you can use both environments on a single monitor setup. I have the Modern Music app snapped while using the desktop. I've attached a screenshot. So yes it can be done.

In Multi-Mon I cannot imagine that they don't already know about the issues you've mentioned. They probably needed to get the OS released, and will update these issues before GA. It wouldn't be the first time it has been done. Remember that by the time the PC's are shipping to consumers that updates will have already been released that can be integrated into the images that OEMs use. :)

Also like I said, in Win95 the implementation wasn't great either...but it wasn't meant to be necessarily. It was a step to having the desktop be the only UI in use except for in special cases. That's what they are doing now :)

[ZombieFly]

It allowed for it with specific apps that could take advantage of it. There weren't that many DOS apps that would behave well or even at all in Windowed mode.

Also (and I'm not saying this is optimal) but if you have more than one monitor you can use both environments at the same time if I'm not mistaken. I'm not running a multi-mon setup right now (long story) but suffice it to say last I heard you could run desktop and modern at the same time with a multi-mon setup.

On the other side of that why can't those of us who do like have our opinion without people getting angry with us?

Both sides for the most part are doing the same thing. It reminds me of political debates. Both sides just argue with each other not realizing that it's really ok to have opposing viewpoints and actually *gasp* talk about them ;)

you need to look at the bigger picture.

on the one hand, the h8trs (see what i did there?) ;) see what the vision is, are not opposed to change, understand the need for change but are so horrified with the vehicle/implementation of the change that they are being very vocal and harsh as it jars with all that was known before. Most h8trs could possibly offer a very detailed and structured explanation of why it's wrong and how it should have been done in their opinion. By some miracle (?), most of those explanations would tally up

on the other hand, there are self appointed "power users" who claim that this is the way forward and are claiming it still allows for the same level of productivity, that people are "moaning for the sake of it" and can't handle change. ********. These people are blindly accepting what is forced at them and bizarrely, not criticising it. The only thing that this stance will achieve is acceptance. Look at the bigger picture. What are you, the power user going to do once there is no desktop? where will you exercise your extra power over your locked down, restricted user account? where? how?

what's happening here is akin to mercedes replacing their steering wheels with bits of rope passed through holes in the floor. You'll get some die hard fans swearing it's brilliant progression, but in reality, it's a step backwards and still basically does the same thing

[Steven P. Administrators]

BTW, evidently you can use both environments on a single monitor setup. I have the Modern Music app snapped while using the desktop. I've attached a screenshot. So yes it can be done.

Also like I said, in Win95 the implementation wasn't great either...but it wasn't meant to be necessarily. It was a step to having the desktop be the only UI in use except for in special cases. That's what they are doing now :)

Sorry, thats not what I meant. I mean: try snapping some Modern UI apps on both screens, it can't be done.

Also desktop apps aren't restored to the screen space when you exit the Modern UI app that has been snapped to the side.

[Shane Nokes]

you need to look at the bigger picture.

on the one hand, the h8trs (see what i did there?) ;) see what the vision is, are not opposed to change, understand the need for change but are so horrified with the vehicle/implementation of the change that they are being very vocal and harsh as it jars with all that was known before. Most h8trs could possibly offer a very detailed and structured explanation of why it's wrong and how it should have been done in their opinion. By some miracle, most of those explanations would tally up

on the other hand, there are self appointed "power users" who claim that this is the way forward and are claiming it still allows for the same level of productivity, that people are "moaning for the sake of it" and can't handle change. ********. These people are blindly accepting what is forced at them and bizarrely, not criticising it. The only thing that this stance will achieve is acceptance. Look at the bigger picture. What are you, the power user going to do once there is no desktop? where will you exercise your extra power over your locked down, restricted user account? where? how?

what's happening here is akin to mercedes replacing their steering wheels with bits of rope passed through holes in the floor. You'll get some die hard fans swearing it's brilliant progression, but in reality, it's a step backwards and still basically does the same thing

So basically you're saying that the 'h8trs' really aren't haters, but misunderstood, and that those of us who like the OS are blind and too stupid to see it, but you are the arbiter of truth...the only ones who can see it.

So essentially you're doing what you accuse us of, but trying to hide it. Wow...

This really is reminding me more and more of politics...

Sorry, thats not what I meant. I mean: try snapping some Modern UI apps on both screens, it can't be done.

Also desktop apps aren't restored to the screen space when you exit the Modern UI app that has been snapped to the side.

I just tried that, and when I exited Music my Desktop app (Firefox) went full screen. Note I only have a single monitor config to test with (as stated) but it appears to work fine here.

I wish I had a second monitor to test more scenarios out.

[nekkidtruth]

On the other side of that why can't those of us who do like have our opinion without people getting angry with us?

Both sides for the most part are doing the same thing. It reminds me of political debates. Both sides just argue with each other not realizing that it's really ok to have opposing viewpoints and actually *gasp* talk about them ;)

I'm not angry because people disagree with my opinion. I'm angry because with the Windows 8 fanboys there is no simple "I disagree with that". It immediately turns into a ****ing match because god forbid somebody doesn't like Windows 8, and if somehow by some miracle you're able to make a valid point as to what is wrong with Windows 8, you're immediately met with "Well don't use it, no one is forcing you".

So no, we're not doing the same thing. We're expressing our opinion on why it isn't holding up as it should and going into detail as to why it's not holding up for us, and the fanboys are throwing tantrums.

[Steven P. Administrators]

So basically you're saying that the 'h8trs' really aren't haters, but misunderstood, and that those of us who like the OS are blind and too stupid to see it.

So essentially you're doing what you accuse us of, but trying to hide it. Wow...

This really is reminding me more and more of politics...

I just tried that, and when I exited Music my Desktop app (Firefox) went full screen. Note I only have a single monitor config to test with (as stated) but it appears to work fine here.

I wish I had a second monitor to test more scenarios out.

This thing only happens when desktop apps aren't full screen, and in a portion of the desktop where the Modern app is snapped to. It isn't restored. So little thought given there as well, Also the fact you can't use the modern apps on more than one screen.

[Shane Nokes]

This thing only happens when desktop apps aren't full screen, and in a portion of the desktop where the Modern app is snapped to. It isn't restored. So little thought given there as well, Also the fact you can't use the modern apps on more than one screen.

Hmm, I think there might be something I'm not understanding. I just had a windowed Desktop app (Firefox) where part of the app was covered by the snapped Music app, then closed the music app, the desktop snapped to full size, and Firefox behaved normally showing the full window as the size it had already been set at.

What am I missing in this case? It sounds like there's just something I'm missing in my interpretation of your usage scenario.

I'm not angry because people disagree with my opinion. I'm angry because with the Windows 8 fanboys there is no simple "I disagree with that". It immediately turns into a ****ing match because god forbid somebody doesn't like Windows 8, and if somehow by some miracle you're able to make a valid point as to what is wrong with Windows 8, you're immediately met with "Well don't use it, no one is forcing you".

So no, we're not doing the same thing. We're expressing our opinion on why it isn't holding up as it should and going into detail as to why it's not holding up for us, and the fanboys are throwing tantrums.

I would disagree. I've seen a lot of hate tossed at the people who do like Win8. Like the statement above by ZombieFly that basically says that any of us that like Win8 are blind and stupid since we're letting them strip things out and change it without putting up a fight.

Both sides seem to want to fight about it. I just post how I see it and I don't care if people agree or disagree. I just like to talk. :)

[Steven P. Administrators]

Hmm, I think there might be something I'm not understanding. I just had a windowed Desktop app (Firefox) where part of the app was covered by the snapped Music app, then closed the music app, the desktop snapped to full size, and Firefox behaved normally showing the full window as the size it had already been set at.

What am I missing in this case? It sounds like there's just something I'm missing in my interpretation of your usage scenario.

I have an IRC window open on the second screen to the bottom left of it, if I snap a Modern app to the second screen on the left side, the IRC window is pushed to the right, when the Modern app is closed, the IRC app doesn't restore the position it had. It stays pushed to the right and you can clearly see the (now desktop) space the snapped app had taken up.

[nekkidtruth]

I would disagree. I've seen a lot of hate tossed at the people who do like Win8. Like the statement above by ZombieFly that basically says that any of us that like Win8 are blind and stupid since we're letting them strip things out and change it without putting up a fight.

Both sides seem to want to fight about it. I just post how I see it and I don't care if people agree or disagree. I just like to talk. :)

I see that :p However, I don't really lump you in the same category as you actually put thought into your responses and actually put in an effort to discuss what is/isn't wrong with Windows 8.

[Shane Nokes]

I have an IRC window open on the second screen to the bottom left of it, if I snap a Modern app to the second screen on the left side, the IRC window is pushed to the right, when the Modern app is closed, the IRC app doesn't restore the position it had. It stays pushed to the right and you can clearly see the (now desktop) space the snapped app had taken up.

Hmm so definitely a multi-mon thing that I cannot test out at present. It appears to work ok on a single monitor setup.

This lack of a second monitor is starting to tick me off though lol :p

Things I need but cannot afford at the moment: 2nd monitor, newer GPU (my HD3850 is now 'legacy'), and a second chair for this house... :p

I see that :p However, I don't really lump you in the same category as you actually put thought into your responses and actually put in an effort to discuss what is/isn't wrong with Windows 8.

Why thank you :)

I think that may be the nicest thing anyone on Neowin has ever said about me. I must be mellowing in my old age. :p

[Steven P. Administrators]

Hmm so definitely a multi-mon thing that I cannot test out at present. It appears to work ok on a single monitor setup.

This lack of a second monitor is starting to tick me off though lol :p

Things I need but cannot afford at the moment: 2nd monitor, newer GPU (my HD3850 is now 'legacy'), and a second chair for this house... :p

Why thank you :)

I think that may be the nicest thing anyone on Neowin has ever said about me. I must be mellowing in my old age. :p

Thanks for the responses though, as you can see there are still issues.., I don't hate Metro, I just think it's poorly implemented in some scenarios.

[Nick H. Supervisor]

I say windows 8 will be a superhit simply because of its porno appeal the fragmented cumbersome ui mess wll be easily covered ;-) :woot:

Don't mind me, I'm just quoting this for future reference. I have the opposite opinion. Part of it hope, the other part speculation.

[~Johnny]

an iPad is not a work environment and can't be compared to a PC or workstation.

I can't see the benefits in dumbing down productivity by making apps full screen (without a taskbar). I still use WLM (messenger) because I don't want to have to use the Messaging app, which forces me to full screen (or a small narrow conversation docked to the side of my screen). You can't have more than two apps open and in view on the same screen, you can't make use of multi screen by having an app docked in the second screen and using another app on the first screen.. so how does this increase productivity over Windows 7 for example where the taskbar can always be used to switch programs and applications can overlap, and have more than two open at the same time in one or both screens?

And that is why the desktop is still there, and that is why they have no intention of removing it. The Metro environment is not meant to benefit productivity in scenarios where a person is interacting with 5+ programs at a time for whatever reason. And I think that's a quintessential problem with some people's understanding of Metro - they're expecting to be everything the desktop was and more - but by design it's not meant to. It's something new, not a replacement, and it's not meant to do the same job.

The new applications are not intended to replace everything for everyone, but it's meant to open up computing and make it easier for a lot of people to consume content and play with their computers, rather than using them primarily as tools. We know lots of more technical users already do this with their PC's, but there's a massive market - think of all those people who can quite happily get along with an iPad or an iPhone but struggle with a Windows computer - who can really benefit from everything here. They still have their validity in certain work environments, depending on what the work is.

And for when we want to do some real work, there's the desktop. For when we just want to play around, relax, or just don't have any pressing issues...? I'm sure most of us will occasionally drop into a Metro app too - even if we do spend the majority of our time on the desktop, and there's not really a problem with that. And even if we don't jump into them, just having our start screen as a dashboard that updates us on everything that's happening relating to or important too us as soon as we open it is a lovely benefit, even if people weren't asking for it :p

[remixedcat]

Honestly.....I love it for HTPC and tabs..... however for a workstation I don't care for it much....

[Dot Matrix]

an iPad is not a work environment and can't be compared to a PC or workstation.

I can't see the benefits in dumbing down productivity by making apps full screen (without a taskbar). I still use WLM (messenger) because I don't want to have to use the Messaging app, which forces me to full screen (or a small narrow conversation docked to the side of my screen). You can't have more than two apps open and in view on the same screen, you can't make use of multi screen by having an app docked in the second screen and using another app on the first screen.. so how does this increase productivity over Windows 7 for example where the taskbar can always be used to switch programs and applications can overlap, and have more than two open at the same time in one or both screens?

I'm going to have to disagree. I used to work for a company that bought a couple hundred of them for employees. I saw them more on the iPad than I did a workstation. The company was also looking to hire more mobile developers - get this, iOS and Android only. No Windows 7, or Windows Phone. They had one guy on the team to maintain an old vertical app, developed for the company's Windows XP machines.

I have a buddy now, who was interviewed for development just last week and told the same story. iOS, and Android. No mention of any Microsoft OS.

I can't blame Microsoft for this bold move. They're loosing out badly.

[Active.]

The Metro environment is not meant to benefit productivity in scenarios where a person is interacting with 5+ programs at a time for whatever reason.

Even just 2+ is cumbersome, certainly 3+ (or 2+ documents of the same type (let's say PDF) )

These are V1 apps...and are fully updatable. They aren't part of the OS, but were put there to give someone basic functionality. Remember that your average user isn't going to see any of this in the state it's in now. GA is still a ways off, and everything in the apps is updatable.

That's assuming Microsoft will release updates to the apps before GA and the user chooses to apply the updates before even attempting to use Windows 8?

[Subhadip]

And that is why the desktop is still there, and that is why they have no intention of removing it. The Metro environment is not meant to benefit productivity in scenarios where a person is interacting with 5+ programs at a time for whatever reason. And I think that's a quintessential problem with some people's understanding of Metro - they're expecting to be everything the desktop was and more - but by design it's not meant to. It's something new, not a replacement, and it's not meant to do the same job.

The new applications are not intended to replace everything for everyone, but it's meant to open up computing and make it easier for a lot of people to consume content and play with their computers, rather than using them primarily as tools. We know lots of more technical users already do this with their PC's, but there's a massive market - think of all those people who can quite happily get along with an iPad or an iPhone but struggle with a Windows computer - who can really benefit from everything here.

And for when we want to do some real work, there's the desktop. For when we just want to play around, relax, or just don't have any pressing issues...? I'm sure most of us will occasionally drop into a Metro app too - even if we do spend the majority of our time on the desktop, and there's not really a problem with that.

This is pretty much how I feel. Metro has its place, Desktop has its place. No one denies - including Microsoft - that the Desktop can handle complex scenarios Metro simply cannot. Which is why Desktop is not just retained but significantly improved over Windows 7. Multi-monitor has advanced far enough to bypass the requirement for a third-party app, and so many more features. Of course, the Windows 8 Desktop significantly gains performance over Windows 7 as well. Overall, Microsoft could just have shipped Windows 8 Desktop without Metro whatsoever, and it would be a greater advancement over Windows 7 than Windows 7 was over Vista SP1.

I love Metro and Desktop does feel a bit clunky for the simple stuff. This is on mouse/keyboard and I am sure the experience is further enhanced with touch. But I simply cannot work without Desktop, that's where my livelihood is. I look forward to a day - and make no mistake, it will come - when WinRT is advanced enough to take over complex apps and relegate Desktop to a legacy interface, much like the command line. But today, Metro is clearly version 1.0 and simply cannot handle all situations.

The good news is that the situations it can, covers a vast majority of computing usage in 2012. Of course this is not relevant to us power users with traditional workstations, a niche base, but Microsoft's motivations are not uncalled for.