• Sign in to Neowin Faster!

    Create an account on Neowin to contribute and support the site.

Sign in to follow this  

Reality check - Windows 8 was not made for you

Recommended Posts

Steven P.    14,233

Everything you said 100%. Pro-Windows 8 users are much too concerned with why anyone would speak ill about their beloved operating system, than with the reasons why. Legitimate reasons have been brought forth such as the ones you mention.

That being said, the only reason I haven't jumped on either side of the bandwagon (at least not for long), is because I realize Windows 8 is a stepping stone. A jagged, horribly designed one, but a stepping stone none-the-less. Good things are coming in terms of UI and tablet/PC crossovers and Microsoft is just preparing for that.

That's the way I see it too, I wrote an article about it after the Consumer Preview was made available and suggested there should be a way to enable tablet features, or not. This is what Microsoft should have done imo, until they can get their idea across properly (with a service pack, or Windows 9) maybe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Shane Nokes    739

I had a whole response I was typing for this and for some reason it didn't post properly.

I'll shorten it down.

I use Win8 RP and find it just as efficient as Win7. I do Desktop tasks & Modern tasks. If I need to multitask within the Modern UI I just go to the top left and swap tasks. If I need to search something in Modern IE I just move to the right and use the search charm, or right click and use the address bar.

I can have notifications pop up that tell me when I have new mail, new messages, or upcoming calendar events. I can do all this while still making more efficient use of my screen. I can have 2 apps running on a single screen and even have desktop apps open on a second screen if need be. I can interact easily with multiple apps and get everything that I need done, and who wouldn't qualify me as a power user?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Steven P.    14,233

I had a whole response I was typing for this and for some reason it didn't post properly.

I'll shorten it down.

I use Win8 RP and find it just as efficient as Win7. I do Desktop tasks & Modern tasks. If I need to multitask within the Modern UI I just go to the top left and swap tasks. If I need to search something in Modern IE I just move to the right and use the search charm, or right click and use the address bar.

I can have notifications pop up that tell me when I have new mail, new messages, or upcoming calendar events. I can do all this while still making more efficient use of my screen. I can have 2 apps running on a single screen and even have desktop apps open on a second screen if need be. I can interact easily with multiple apps and get everything that I need done, and who wouldn't qualify me as a power user?

Not saying anything is wrong with that at all, I'm just saying some of those ideas were poorly implemented (already gave examples of this).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Shane Nokes    739

That's the way I see it too, I wrote an article about it after the Consumer Preview was made available and suggested there should be a way to enable tablet features, or not. This is what Microsoft should have done imo, until they can get their idea across properly (with a service pack, or Windows 9) maybe.

Think of this as a intentional stepping stone, much like XP was one to move users off the 9x code base, and Vista was one to start getting in ideas like Federated Search and user folder abstraction.

Each one of these is a step towards the concept videos you see them post about their 'Future Vision'.

What would happen if they had kept working on Windows 8 longer, and released it entirely without the desktop? It would be too jarring for most.

This gives users both environments so they can get familiar with where things are headed so that by the time it fully happens, they are used to it, and it is familiar...just like the Start Menu became familiar by the time Windows 98 rolled out. :)

Everyone resists change at first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Reacon    135

What I see happening in the near future:

Microsoft and Apple will continue to lock out the power-user to the point where it is no longer viable to have decent workflow. As a consumer centric OS, it will be spliffy and fast, but advanced tasks will be either be unnecessarily buried or impossible to complete. Perhaps a business centric fork will spawn of it, using a more traditional UI in lieu of whatever shell they will be using 5 years from now.

Linux will stand to gain in the power user market, with gaming making an increased stand with OpenGL. Advanced users will be attracted to the freer environment, and gain a larger crowd. The consumers will stay with their spoon fed designer OS, and the geeks will find a utilitarian distro built with their habits in mind.

I'm not saying Year of the Linux 2013, but I just don't see how Metro is viable on a business level, especially since they plan to take out the desktop UI entirely in the next iteration.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Steven P.    14,233

You don't need a tablet UI (or the features) on a workstation without touch features.

I'll say it again, my PC isn't a tablet or Windows Phone, and that's the impression I get with Windows 8.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Shane Nokes    739

What I see happening in the near future:

Microsoft and Apple will continue to lock out the power-user to the point where it is no longer viable to have decent workflow. As a consumer centric OS, it will be spliffy and fast, but advanced tasks will be either be unnecessarily buried or impossible to complete. Perhaps a business centric fork will spawn of it, using a more traditional UI in lieu of whatever shell they will be using 5 years from now.

Linux will stand to gain in the power user market, with gaming making an increased stand with OpenGL. Advanced users will be attracted to the freer environment, and gain a larger crowd. The consumers will stay with their spoon fed designer OS, and the geeks will find a utilitarian distro built with their habits in mind.

I'm not saying Year of the Linux 2013, but I just don't see how Metro is viable on a business level, especially since they plan to take out the desktop UI entirely in the next iteration.

Well what if those Modern apps had a slick UI, and usability that was seamless across multiple input types? So you can use a mouse and keyboard, but also use touch or a stylus where it makes sense? There is nothing that prevents Modern apps from being just as feature filled and usable as anything currently available in the Desktop mode.

Also remember, right now at this point Modern is basically a 'V1'. It's going to improve and apps will find ways to leverage it. Try the OneNote MX app. ;)

You don't need a tablet UI (or the features) on a workstation without touch features.

I'll say it again, my PC isn't a tablet or Windows Phone, and that's the impression I get with Windows 8.

You don't need a mouse either...pfft. Silly mouse...

I mean everything that needs to be done that's really important with computing can be done without a mouse. I remember that argument back in the 80's when the GUI was first coming into play. People thought the GUI and the mouse were TERRIBLE ideas. They were both thought of as gimmicks and a waste of effort that would hinder efficiency.

Most of the arguments against the GUI and mouse are the same arguments you're using here...and we all know how that went ;)

BTW, the only 'tablet' I own is a Kindle Fire...Win 8 is in use on my desktop, without a touch screen, only a mouse and keyboard for input. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Arkos Reed    176

As an Enterprise user/administrator, I can tell one thing, for the business users, this OS is schizophrenic. No need to be a power user to feel the pain.

Using the default apps and settings, on the Enterprise release :

- Opening a picture/video/pdf file from the File Explorer yanks you back to the start panel, yea sure...

- want to open 3 of them to do whatever your business requires? sorry you can't

- you have 2 or more monitors and think it'll allow you to view 2/3 PDFs? too bad, it won't help either

- Need to use Windows update? Back to metro, no biggie right? However you can't change settings from there, you have to search for it and then it yanks you back to the desktop, fun!

- Once upon a time, Regional settings for the OS and IE were separate, allowing you to dissociate the keyboard layout from whatever defaults you wanted to see in the browser, now they aren't, you're stuck with whatever default you choose, everywhere.

- Are you using the default workstation/domain account? Sorry, no metro apps for you unless you edit the registry (not a huge drawback, but still worth a chuckle)

That being said, the OS works well, the start panel, used as a glorified Start Menu, is relatively fine, but FFS, when I'm on the desktop, use desktop apps, and when on Metro, stick to metro, don't do both at the same time in no particular order, it makes me gag sometimes.

Now, if I were to deploy this nightmare in our enterprise, which will happen when pigs fly tbh, I'd have to spend hours hunting for registry settings, default document associations, and God knows what else in the profile settings and GPOs, to ensure users would have a consistent, predictable AND business friendly environment to work with. (this includes user experience AND support experience, which seems to be lost on Sinofsky)

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ZombieFly    222

What I see happening in the near future:

Microsoft and Apple will continue to lock out the power-user to the point where it is no longer viable to have decent workflow. As a consumer centric OS, it will be spliffy and fast, but advanced tasks will be either be unnecessarily buried or impossible to complete. Perhaps a business centric fork will spawn of it, using a more traditional UI in lieu of whatever shell they will be using 5 years from now.

Linux will stand to gain in the power user market, with gaming making an increased stand with OpenGL. Advanced users will be attracted to the freer environment, and gain a larger crowd. The consumers will stay with their spoon fed designer OS, and the geeks will find a utilitarian distro built with their habits in mind.

I'm not saying Year of the Linux 2013, but I just don't see how Metro is viable on a business level, especially since they plan to take out the desktop UI entirely in the next iteration.

+1

This. This is what is happening. This whole restricted user experience is the way home OS's and user experience is going. locked content channels forced into your face. control. The power user is being pushed away. Once this evil restricted mechanism is fully in place, the masses will be controlled as to what they can/can't access on the intertubes. This is the beginning of the end people. you're being blinded by the whizzbangs and animated panels.

Resist. This whole thing is a BAD IDEA. Yes, we need a microsoft tablet OS, No, we dont need this forcing onto our desktop pcs. As for people claiming this new metro abomination enhances productivity, come on now, if you think that, something is wrong with your idea of what a "power user" (for want of a better term) actually is.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Shane Nokes    739

One thing I'm noticing is that a lot of people are making judgments on functionality based on what's available inbox, as opposed to what is going to be released via the Windows Store later on.

Right now folks this all just RTM'd so a lot of tasks that you're used to aren't going to have perfect experiences in the Modern UI.

A direct point to Arkos Reed. All the things you're talking about (minus the current UI quirks) are things you'd have to deal with in an OS anyways. You have to setup GPOs to make sure experiences are consistent. Associations are in the same place they've always been, the registry behaves just the same...so I'm not sure of your point there. None of that has changed for your job roles at all. This is why IT departments create images to be deployed on the machines they have to take care of.

If you're not doing that, then that's not an issue with Win8 but a 'best practices' issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
zhangm    1,335

I'm a bit mystified by how everyone has apparently forgotten how to assign non-default programs to certain files.

Need to look at multiple PDFs at the same time? I assure you that Adobe Reader/Adobe Acrobat (which an enterprise is likely to have anyway) will work with Windows 8, and other readers like Foxit have not suddenly vanished from the earth. Why do people complain about the capabilities of bundled Metro apps while they ignore how limited Wordpad is (which is the default program for Word documents when you're sans Office)?

Yeah, fine, WinRT might be much more limited in its ability to use x86 programs, but when was the last time that you attached your tablet to two external monitors and wanted to read FIVE PDFs at the same time? On your tablet.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Shane Nokes    739

+1

This. This is what is happening. This whole restricted user experience is the way home OS's and user experience is going. locked content channels forced into your face. control. The power user is being pushed away. Once this evil restricted mechanism is fully in place, the masses will be controlled as to what they can/can't access on the intertubes. This is the beginning of the end people. you're being blinded by the whizzbangs and animated panels.

Resist. This whole thing is a BAD IDEA. Yes, we need a microsoft tablet OS, No, we dont need this forcing onto our desktop pcs. As for people claiming this new metro abomination enhances productivity, come on now, if you think that, something is wrong with your idea of what a "power user" (for want of a better term) actually is.

Having worked in IT for quite some time, having owned my own PC building & repair business, and having worked at MS I think I qualify as a power user. I manage to do everything just fine...

I mean can you tell me what doesn't work? Click start (just like you could before) and start typing what you're looking for. It sorts it into categories so that you can find what you're looking for easier. Need Powershell? It's there. Need the registry? It's there. Need to use desktop? Win+D

Need easy access to your 'power tools', mouse down to the bottom left, when you see the start tile show up right click, it's all there.

What's missing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Steven P.    14,233

snip

Don't mean to be disrespectful, but I think you're ignoring examples we've given on how productivity is actually decreased for desktop users between Windows 7 and 8.

These sort of problems weren't present with the release of Windows 7, and to use the start menu example from windows 3.1 to windows 95 is a poor one as well, because everyone agreed that this was a massive step forward.

I and many others weren't around to see the transition of keyboard only input to the addition of a complimentary mouse, which has always been present for home end users

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
nekkidtruth    467

A direct point to Arkos Reed. All the things you're talking about (minus the current UI quirks) are things you'd have to deal with in an OS anyways. You have to setup GPOs to make sure experiences are consistent. Associations are in the same place they've always been, the registry behaves just the same...so I'm not sure of your point there. None of that has changed for your job roles at all. This is why IT departments create images to be deployed on the machines they have to take care of.

If you're not doing that, then that's not an issue with Win8 but a 'best practices' issue.

Hogwash. The points he made before he even got to the GPO portion of his post are legit and real world issues in Windows 8. You can't just ignore them simply because they don't fit into your counter argument. The reality of it all is Windows 8 is not some holy grail. As I've mentioned (and I believe you said the same thing), it's a stepping stone. So let's all stop pretending it's the best thing since sliced bread when we all know it's a cluster....

When you can't do what you do everyday on your computer with ease, there's a problem. It doesn't matter if it's in the process of evolving. You don't just dump entire functions, toss an OS out and say "Yeah...here you go. We took a bunch of stuff out, changed a bunch of stuff and well....tough titties." Regardless of whether the next version will fix most of it and if you want to get down to it even further, we shouldn't have to wait for an "app for that" on a full fledged operating system that's been doing said things for decades.

  • Like 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Arkos Reed    176

One thing I'm noticing is that a lot of people are making judgments on functionality based on what's available inbox, as opposed to what is going to be released via the Windows Store later on.

Right now folks this all just RTM'd so a lot of tasks that you're used to aren't going to have perfect experiences in the Modern UI.

A direct point to Arkos Reed. All the things you're talking about (minus the current UI quirks) are things you'd have to deal with in an OS anyways. You have to setup GPOs to make sure experiences are consistent. Associations are in the same place they've always been, the registry behaves just the same...so I'm not sure of your point there. None of that has changed for your job roles at all. This is why IT departments create images to be deployed on the machines they have to take care of.

If you're not doing that, then that's not an issue with Win8 but a 'best practices' issue.

I'm already customizing our images as required, hell, I've even singlehandedly deployed Windows 7 and Office 2010 to all of our 960 desktops (4 different hardware configurations and a myriad of application profiles), however most of the UI inconsistencies I've mentionned in Windows 8 Enterprise could AND should have been avoided, next to none of them are configurable via GPOs, a majority require manual registry editing, and many of them won't be configurable (the regional settings are a b****). Seeing the number of inconsistencies, it adds what most enterprises would consider too much of a burden on their IT dept.

I'm a bit mystified by how everyone has apparently forgotten how to assign non-default programs to certain files.

Most users don't know how to, if you don't prepare that in advance, make sure you have a good support ticketing system.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+InsaneNutter    1,353

Everything you said 100%. Pro-Windows 8 users are much too concerned with why anyone would speak ill about their beloved operating system, than with the reasons why. Legitimate reasons have been brought forth such as the ones you mention.

That being said, the only reason I haven't jumped on either side of the bandwagon (at least not for long), is because I realize Windows 8 is a stepping stone. A jagged, horribly designed one, but a stepping stone none-the-less. Good things are coming in terms of UI and tablet/PC crossovers and Microsoft is just preparing for that.

Indeed, its annoying how pro Windows 8 users have to turn every thread with someone that has a slight issue and wants to tweak something, in to some extreme debate about why its been done that way and you shouldn't change it.

I do see the benefits of Windows 8, were going to have PC's, Tablets and Phone which can all run the same apps, even the next Xbox could be powered by Windows 8! I think one base for multiple devices will be pretty awesome.

However from a desktop users point of view i think the experience could be improved a lot, some days i think Windows 8 isn't that bad, other days it just gets on my nerves. I do kinda feel its made for idiots at times, however other times i'm like "oh thats nice"... love / hate thing I guess.

Windows 9 will probably be where things start to come together better, hopefully taking feedback on board and have much better desktop / metro integration.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
x-byte    94

With just a few adjustments you really don't have to use any Modern IUI apps at all. If you call yourself powerusers, then configure the system. You should know how.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Steven P.    14,233

With just a few adjustments you really don't have to use any Modern UI apps at all. If you call yourself powerusers, then configure the system. You should know how.

OK, can you tell me how I can force open links in the Mail app to the desktop browser, print an email, switch from composing to my inbox? Some Modern UI apps are useful, I just don't like the way they behave, and are impossible to configure to my liking.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Vice    1,593

With just a few adjustments you really don't have to use any Modern IUI apps at all. If you call yourself powerusers, then configure the system. You should know how.

But then why are you paying money to upgrade? There is very little else in the operating system once you remove Metro. New explorer UI, new Task Manager. That's about it front facing feature wise. There is some other stuff but they are such small features they don't bare mentioning.

On my computer it boots up and shuts down as fast as Windows 7 (In under 10 seconds) and it runs the same apps so why would I upgrade for? All the new apps like Mail, Messages, Weather and Stocks are Metro apps.

I just don't see the point in it.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
x-byte    94

OK, can you tell me how I can force open links in the Mail app in the desktop browser, print an email, switch from composing to my inbox? Some Modern UI apps are useful, I just don't like the way they behave, and are impossible to configure to my liking.

Like I said, don't use Modern apps then. You just have to accept that the Modern stuff is limited. It's not designed to integrate into the desktop app. Which makes sense. That would mean Modern apps could open other apps like the desktop does.

But then why are you paying money to upgrade? There is very little else in the operating system once you remove Metro. New explorer UI, new Task Manager. That's about it front facing feature wise. There is some other stuff but they are such small features they don't bare mentioning.

On my computer it boots up and shuts down as fast as Windows 7 (In under 10 seconds) and it runs the same apps so why would I upgrade for? All the new apps like Mail, Messages, Weather and Stocks are Metro apps.

I just don't see the point in it.

There are more to Win8 than that. So you say Win7 was just a skin upgrade from Vista?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Shane Nokes    739

Don't mean to be disrespectful, but I think you're ignoring examples we've given on how productivity is actually decreased for desktop users between Windows 7 and 8.

These sort of problems weren't present with the release of Windows 7, and to use the start menu example from windows 3.1 to windows 95 is a poor one as well, because everyone agreed that this was a massive step forward.

I and many others weren't around to see the transition of keyboard only input to the addition of a complimentary mouse, which has always been present for home end users

I'm not ignoring any examples. People were furious when Windows 95 was released. They couldn't figure out how the thing worked and cursed it for quite some time.

Also how can you say the mouse 'has always been present for home end users'? I didn't have a mouse on any of the home PC's I used until later on. None of my 286's or Commodore 64's had a mouse, nor did my Apple II. All I had was a keyboard and CLI to work with...and that was at home on a PC marketed to consumers for home use.

Every time Microsoft comes out with a new interface people freak out and pretend it's the end of the world. I watched it happen with Windows 3.11 (the first time Windows made a huge splash with home users), Windows 95 (Start Menu), Windows 98 (Active Desktop & Integrated IE), Windows ME (hiding DOS & more NT style), Windows XP (Fisher Price Interface), Windows Vista (Federated Search & Abstracted User Folders aka Libraries), Windows 7 (Superbar), and now Windows 8 (Modern UI).

It happens with every OS release. This is just the most drastic change since Windows 95, and people HATE change. People just like to think they are more pliable than what they are and tend to not want to admit that they had issues in the past with change as well. None of us like to admit that we have that issue. Heck I didn't want to use Windows 8 either and resisted trying to use it until recently. I didn't want to change, then I figured...well might as well install and challenge my want to keep things the same. I've found myself very happy thus far.

Indeed, its annoying how pro Windows 8 users have to turn every thread with someone that has a slight issue and wants to tweak something, in to some extreme debate about why its been done that way and you shouldn't change it.

I do see the benefits of Windows 8, were going to have PC's, Tablets and Phone which can all run the same apps, even the next Xbox could be powered by Windows 8! I think one base for multiple devices will be pretty awesome.

However from a desktop users point of view i think the experience could be improved a lot, some days i think Windows 8 isn't that bad, other days it just gets on my nerves. I do kinda feel its made for idiots at times, however other times i'm like "oh thats nice"... love / hate thing I guess.

Windows 9 will probably be where things start to come together better, hopefully taking feedback on board and have much better desktop / metro integration.

So you can complain about how you don't like it, but we can't talk about why we do? That totally makes sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Steven P.    14,233

Like I said, don't use Modern apps then. You just have to accept that the Modern stuff is limited. It's not designed to integrate into the desktop app. Which makes sense. That would mean Modern apps could open other apps like the desktop does.

So you're saying the Modern Ui experience on a desktop is pointless (or unhelpful)? That's what we've been discussing :p

Problem is, there's no getting around some things, once you link your Microsoft ID with Windows 8, your contacts, messenger and everything is forced into the ModernUi apps. You can ignore them, sure.. but I'm still logged into 2 or 3 places at once on the same workstation! :p

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Shane Nokes    739

OK, can you tell me how I can force open links in the Mail app to the desktop browser, print an email, switch from composing to my inbox? Some Modern UI apps are useful, I just don't like the way they behave, and are impossible to configure to my liking.

I'll fully admit that you can't do that right now. Remember these apps are updatable. Windows Phone at first was missing quite a few things and had to play catch-up. You do realize that all of these apps are just that...apps. They can be updated, and will be updated over time.

So you're saying the Modern Ui experience on a desktop is pointless (or unhelpful)? That's what we've been discussing :p

Problem is, there's no getting around some things, once you link your Microsoft ID with Windows 8, your contacts, messenger and everything is forced into the ModernUi apps. You can ignore them, sure.. but I'm still logged in, in 2 or 3 places at once on the same workstation! :p

I'm starting to see the issue now...you keep saying Modern UI, but almost every complaint you're making is about the apps...which I just addressed above. These are V1 apps...and are fully updatable. They aren't part of the OS, but were put there to give someone basic functionality. Remember that your average user isn't going to see any of this in the state it's in now. GA is still a ways off, and everything in the apps is updatable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
x-byte    94

So you're saying the Modern Ui experience on a desktop is pointless (or unhelpful)? That's what we've been discussing :p

Problem is, there's no getting around some things, once you link your Microsoft ID with Windows 8, your contacts, messenger and everything is forced into the ModernUi apps. You can ignore them, sure.. but I'm still logged in, in 2 or 3 places at once on the same workstation! :p

I never said that. You seem to think so. I use them everyday on my desktop. Like them a lot. But I see their limitations and don't cry about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Vice    1,593

There are more to Win8 than that. So you say Win7 was just a skin upgrade from Vista?

Pretty much. List some features that Windows 7 gained that Windows Vista didn't have that aren't UI related or under the hood "you never see them" changes.

Difficult isn't it? - Windows 8 has the same problem if you remove Metro. Not much there to drive me to upgrade. Windows 7 already works so great and fully utilises all my hardware. Maybe if Microsoft made some new desktop apps like Apple did with Lion and Mountain Lion I'd upgrade.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.