Church in Madrid says it needs exorcists to help fight demons

[thechronic]

How are people even questioning this? i'd much prefer that a doctor refer me to see a counsellor or offer medication which i can still refuse than have a priest analyse me or even perform an exorcism. One may yield results, the other will most likely cause confusion and panic.

An example.

A woman at a church i used to attend was frequently in tears and very emotional. She was struggling with depression. People felt this was a spiritual matter and encouraged prayer and other approaches, even actively encouraging her to avoid doctors who won't understand!

[compl3x]

I'm not advocating shunning conventional treatments, if you need them...

And who should decide whether or not you need them? Medical professionals? You know, the folks who have dedicated their lives to diagnosing illnesses and disorders?

Keep in mind you earlier stated:

I'd rather someone with depression or anxiety issues first go talk to a priest or a yogi or whomever as a counselor just for advice about life, rather than first go to a doctor whose just going to pressure him to go on medication

Hell. People may as well go to their local psychic.

[redfish]

And who should decide whether or not you need them? Medical professionals? You know, the folks who have dedicated their lives to diagnosing illnesses and disorders?

Ultimately, the individuals with problems themselves. There isn't some scientific test for if a depressed patient needs a doctor, it depends on how well they can recover without one.

[Andre S. Veteran]

How can they tell the difference between mental disturbed and having a demon?

In most cases they are found to have some mental illness and referred to a doctor. There are some specific signs of demonic presence, I'm not very well versed in that but things like fear of sacraments and sacramentals, superhuman strength, flying through the air or speaking of things they could not possibly be aware of or understand would count.

[Yusuf M. Veteran]

"The devil exists. That's a fact," she told The Associated Press.

Yeah, and so does Poseidon, Zeus, Thor, Odin, and His Noodliness, the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

A "demonic possession" is nothing more than a mental disorder. Instead of exorcists, they need more psychiatrists and psychologists.

[Andre S. Veteran]

A "demonic possession" is nothing more than a mental disorder. Instead of exorcists, they need more psychiatrists and psychologists.

Psychiatrists and psychologists are helpless with the cases that they deal with. Have you ever looked into the topic before dismissing it as nonsense?

[thechronic]

Have you ever looked into the topic before dismissing it as nonsense?

ask yourself why are there still skeptics? science and medicine isn't about dismissing anything but it is about practice, research and establishing fact. scientists are have tested for example the theory that our universe is a hologram, a simulation. science has put forward the Randi Paranormal Challenge and yet nobody has successfully claimed the prize money despite best efforts. The hologram test would mean accepting that we exist as a simulation and are the product of a higher source! - an interesting article on this was in the BBC Focus Magazine

I'm actually borderline agnostic and i've only recently drifted from being a theist but my opinion remains the same. I've 'witnessed' people speaking tongues, healing, the "power of the holy spirit" even people claiming to have the gift of prophecy and my response to their claims was not immediate dismissal but rather basing my opinion on what i see before me and what i hear, not just what i felt or believed to be real.

The bible itself actually says in 1John 4:1 - Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

A responsible believer, somebody who intends to dedicate their life to christianity for example and all that entails has the right to test the spirit (to see if it is indeed the 'holy spirit'). Therefore why hasn't a priest conducted an exorcism in a scientifically controlled environment? it hasn't happened yet or the ritual of exorcism hasn't been proven to be necessary otherwise right now i'd be sat here agreeing with you. The same can be said for the existence of demons or paranormal apparitions. No conclusive evidence has been produced.

As Anaron below me says

I don't believe in the supernatural but if evidence is found that supports the existence of angels and demons, then I will have no choice but to believe in their existence.

Evidence is crucial. I wouldn't for example trust anybody to care for my children unless i had evidence or proof that they were safe and trustworthy. Your life is also precious and i would urge you to examine your beliefs. Science is not the enemy of religion or the Bible. For example the name of a King/Ruler found in the Bible was thought to be entirely made up, however a tablet surfaced that had this persons name on it and Historians accepted it's account! Evidence and Supporting Evidence. Nothing less is worth your time and dedication.

Expanding further on the Child analogy. If my child for arguments sake manifested what appeared to be stigmata wounds, and apparently spoke in tongues i'd firstly consider that a real person physically laid hands on my child and that the distress of this (or perhaps head trauma) has caused them to speak unintelligible babble and i'd seek a doctor immediately. Not a priest. Finally on that point, where do we draw the line? at what point is a priest no longer qualified to assist? The "power of God" is not limited to that of exorcism - Like this Couple would you watch two children die before seeking a medical professional or is this scenario limited only to what you judge to be demonic?

And believe me as an ex-jehovah's witness and former follower of church of england i'd love to see that there is a creator, that there is hope but reality so far has proven that wrong.

My last point is this. This is the Catholic Church. They spear headed the Crusades against Muslims, killing many innocent people. They sanctioned this in the name of God himself yet later apologised through the Pope calling them "the sins of the church". If God was truly behind their actions, yet they were proven to have acted of their own accord in one or more instances, it is possible that there may one day be an apology for exorcisms? i believe yes.

[Yusuf M. Veteran]

Psychiatrists and psychologists are helpless with the cases that they deal with. Have you ever looked into the topic before dismissing it as nonsense?

Yes, I have. And from what I've read, the majority of cases are caused by a mental disorder. Other cases are caused by neurological disorders (e.g. epilepsy). As far as I'm aware, there's no scientific evidence to support demonic possession. I'd go as far as saying that it's all based on anecdotal evidence from the perspective of a religious individual. Stories that come to light are basically cherry-picked when in truth, they're likely the result of an undiagnosed and potentially treatable disorder instead of something supernatural.

I don't believe in the supernatural but if evidence is found that supports the existence of angels and demons, then I will have no choice but to believe in their existence.

[Andre S. Veteran]

@thechronic I agree with most of what you say and I welcome your nuanced opinion. I'm in a similar position as you as a long-time Catholic who's recently started leaning towards agnosticism. My comment was mainly for those who reject the validity of these stories on principle.

Yes, I have. And from what I've read, the majority of cases are caused by a mental disorder. Other cases are caused by neurological disorders (e.g. epilepsy). As far as I'm aware, there's no scientific evidence to support demonic possession. I'd go as far as saying that it's all based on anecdotal evidence from the perspective of a religious individual. Stories that come to light are basically cherry-picked when in truth, they're likely the result of an undiagnosed and potentially treatable disorder instead of something supernatural.

From what I've personally seen, and I've been in the Church for a long time, exorcists are well trained to recognize epilepsy and such natural disorders. When the case calls for medical care, which is usually the case, they'll refer the person to doctors. Only when there are clear signs of the supernatural is exorcism performed. Exorcists deal with hundreds of cases every year so evidence abounds, if you care to look. I don't personally know what to make of that as I don't really believe in anything supernatural anymore, but there's no denying that exorcists actually cure a lot of people from strange religion-related conditions that modern science is unable to deal with.

[Arachno 1D]

Hysteria and auto suggestion can account for many "manifestations" that you see portrayed such as in church meetings, which are miraculously lauded by famous telecasters as miracle cures.Whilst I agree as with many ailments that reach as Doctors ears they can be mentally based,there are as even in science unexplained anomalies which confound simple explanation.

[Gaffney]

I've yet to see a case of an Atheist being possessed, surely we must be a much easier target?

[Arachno 1D]

Yea but the Devil doesn't hate Atheists only Christians :D

[compl3x]

From what I've personally seen, and I've been in the Church for a long time, exorcists are well trained to recognize epilepsy and such natural disorders.

Do they have magical powers to tell the difference between someone who is schizophrenic and someone whose soul has been invaded by the bogeyman?

I've yet to see a case of an Atheist being possessed, surely we must be a much easier target?

That's the thing with bull****, you have to believe in it to be deluded by it.

Although I am sure many faith heads think being an atheist is a form of possession.

[Growled Member]

I've yet to see a case of an Atheist being possessed, surely we must be a much easier target?

Maybe you are already possessed and don't know it?

I kid. :)

[Hum]

• ^ How come no one gets possessed by God ? :shifty:
  

[Gerowen]

And people wonder why I'm anti-religion...