Lanning: Xbox One team should be fired over indie stance

[spaceelf]

Yeah because one bad indie game tars the whole lot of them.

 

State of Decay made Microsoft a lot of moolah in June it sold 700,000 units at $20 each, not sure how much of a cut Microsoft makes but its hardly money to turn your nose up at, just like Minecraft that's sold 8m+ units on Xbox so far.

Microsoft Studios published that, from what I can tell.  Not exactly indie.

[TheLegendOfMart]

I don't really care either way, if Microsoft sit by and do nothing all the indie devs are going to flock to PC and PS4 and Microsoft will have burnt any bridges and/or good will they have left with regards to indie developers.

 

 

Microsoft Studios published that, from what I can tell.  Not exactly indie.

 

The only reason they got a publisher is because it is a requirement of publishing on Xbox Live.

 

The team that made State of Decay is tiny.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Microsoft Studios published that, from what I can tell.  Not exactly indie.

 

Well as you know, you can't self publish....

[ahhell]

I hope they do stick with that attitude, with the resurgence of indie developers they are going to be left behind if the only place you can get the latest critically acclaimed indie game is on the competing console.

 

 

 

Hardly sensationalist, but these people are the ones making all the wrong decisions, just look at the DRM 180, they will probably have a sudden epiphany and do a 180 on their self publishing stance in the future.

 

It's a train wreck.

 

How is not having announced what they are doing with indie games "a train wreck"?  

Oh right, you're the type of guy that believes that XBoxone has already failed even though it's 4 months out from even LAUNCHING.

[TheLegendOfMart]

How is not having announced what they are doing with indie games "a train wreck"?  

Oh right, you're the type of guy that believes that XBoxone has already failed even though it's 4 months out from even LAUNCHING.

I'm on about their attitude, I'm pretty sure they said E3 or before is that their policy on indie titles would be exactly how it was on the 360. 

 

In order to release games through XBL Arcade, the developers must use a third-party publisher or get a publishing deal through Microsoft Game Studios.

?As of right now, we intend to continue to court developers in the ways that we have,? Matt Booty, general manager of Redmond Game Studios and Platforms, told Shacknews.

http://www.vg247.com/2013/05/22/xbox-one-wont-permit-indie-devs-to-self-publish-through-xbox-live-arcade/

 

Then when everyone kicks up a fuss much like the DRM 180 they now all of a sudden haven't decided on self-publishing and might even follow Sony's suit.

[spaceelf]

I'm rather dismissive of FPS titles (they aren't usually my cup of tea), that doesn't mean I do not see a need for those that enjoy them to have their interests met. To be as blunt as this

 

 

Is to simply stifle the gaming industry. It's not all about Call of Duty, Halo, Moutain Dew and Sports! As many others have already said, there's quite a bit of money to be made in indie titles.

MS has published quite a few games on XBLA and Steam from games that one wouldn't normally consider big name publisher stuff.

 

There's a lot about the X1 they haven't really talked about yet.  I wouldn't be surprised at all to see plenty of indie games on there.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

How is not having announced what they are doing with indie games "a train wreck"?  

Oh right, you're the type of guy that believes that XBoxone has already failed even though it's 4 months out from even LAUNCHING.

 

Because it's causing a fair amount of bad PR?

 

If MS can do a 180 on a very large, integrated and thought out DRM process overnight, I'm pretty certain they can release a 1 line of text PR statement saying "indie developers can self publish". The only statements in regards to that so far are those saying indie devs cannot self publish on Xbox One.

 

There is no better outcome than self-publishing for indie developers, it's not as if there can be some behind the scenes plan cooking by MS to 1up Sony. Self-publishing is the end all and be all on the scale of the whole indie devs publishing matter.

[ahhell]

I'm on about their attitude, I'm pretty sure they said E3 or before is that their policy on indie titles would be exactly how it was on the 360. 

 

 

 

http://www.vg247.com/2013/05/22/xbox-one-wont-permit-indie-devs-to-self-publish-through-xbox-live-arcade/

 

Then when everyone kicks up a fuss much like the DRM 180 they now all of a sudden haven't decided on self-publishing and might even follow Sony's suit.

 

What exactly is your point?  

Maybe they decided to rethink their plans.  How is that a bad thing exactly?

[TheLegendOfMart]

MS has published quite a few games on XBLA and Steam from games that one wouldn't normally consider big name publisher stuff.

 

There's a lot about the X1 they haven't really talked about yet.  I wouldn't be surprised at all to see plenty of indie games on there.

Only if you jump through hoops and give your money away to publishers or publish via Microsoft Game Studios which is what indie devs want to avoid.

 

 

What exactly is your point?  

Maybe they decided to rethink their plans.  How is that a bad thing exactly?

 

I don't expect you to get it, being an apologist after all.

 

I am on about their general attitude and arrogance as well as their weak stance with regards to policy, you get lots of mouthpeices saying "this is how it is, this is how it will be" then weeks later you get people like Don Mattrick being ousted from his position and high ups doing a u-turn on policy.

 

If you are going to have a hard line at least have the balls to back it up, it just makes you look weak when the inevitable backpeddling PR statements get released.

[ahhell]

Only if you jump through hoops and give your money away to publishers or publish via Microsoft Game Studios which is what indie devs want to avoid.

 

 

 

I don't expect you to get it, being an apologist after all.

 

I am on about their general attitude and arrogance as well as their weak stance with regards to policy, you get lots of mouthpeices saying "this is how it is, this is how it will be" then weeks later you get people like Don Mattrick being ousted from his position and high ups doing a u-turn on policy.

 

If you are going to have a hard line at least have the balls to back it up, it just makes you look weak when the inevitable backpeddling PR statements get released.

So you are complaining about something that happened a month ago BEFORE Mattrick left?  Good show.

 

Also, now you are bitching about MS "backpedaling" yet you were bitching before it happened too.

You admit that you hate everything that they do and we can get back to ignoring you.

[spaceelf]

Only if you jump through hoops and give your money away to publishers or publish via Microsoft Game Studios which is what indie devs want to avoid.

That's an assumption based on incomplete information.

 

Yes, it's very possible, but they haven't gone into detail about how things will work and it's very likely their setup will evolve over time.

 

The only thing I personally can blast MS on is not being very clear on their future plans.  It's the same with Windows development right now...they have a very limited amount of people getting any information at all.

[TheLegendOfMart]

So you are complaining about something that happened a month ago BEFORE Mattrick left?  Good show.

 

Also, now you are bitching about MS "backpedaling" yet you were bitching before it happened too.

You admit that you hate everything that they do and we can get back to ignoring you.

Yet again you miss the crux of what I'm trying to say and are being contrary just because you think it's clever.

 

I forgot you can't have an adult conversation here without the usual suspects dragging yet another thread down.

 

 

That's an assumption based on incomplete information.

 

Yes, it's very possible, but they haven't gone into detail about how things will work and it's very likely their setup will evolve over time.

 

The only thing I personally can blast MS on is not being very clear on their future plans.  It's the same with Windows development right now...they have a very limited amount of people getting any information at all.

 

They have done into detail but like other policies they are now changing their mind because of public opinion. Before and at E3 they said publishing would be as it was on the 360 you would need a publisher or publish through Microsoft Game Studios.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Only if you jump through hoops and give your money away to publishers or publish via Microsoft Game Studios which is what indie devs want to avoid.

 

 

 

Yeah, because if you self publish you can set your own prices, release date and be multiplatform if you want. Sessler discusses indie development well

 

 

The part of the quote in the OP that shows MS rejecting Oddworld because of it's price on PSN just shows you everything that's wrong with their current model. Developers should be able to set their own pricing, end of.

 

This is also a good video that highlights things already said in here, but no doubt ignored or passed over because of the forum member they're said by

 

 

^ Watch that one if you're "concerned" about titles being buggy/crashing your console etc. Indie titles still have to pass those checks.

[spaceelf]

The part of the quote in the OP that shows MS rejecting Oddworld because of it's price on PSN just shows you everything that's wrong with their current model.

That's talking about the X360 market, and we already know the X1 will have different policies.

Before and at E3 they said publishing would be as it was on the 360 you would need a publisher or publish through Microsoft Game Studios.

Yes, but the part of that I still don't know is if MS gets a cut or exclusivity beyond what digital distribution usually gets them, or it's just like self publishing through them.

 

The devils in the details, as they say.

[George P Global Moderator]

You guys are still fixed on calling arcade games indie when they're not thought of as indie titles.  Not at he start and not now.   If you want to put the Xbox brand on your title and use the Live services then you've stopped thinking of your game as being a indie game.  It doesn't matter if the team making it is small or if it's just one guy, you've decided to go for something that's close to a big title in name, marketing, feature support and even direct support from MS when you need help.  The only difference is the budget and the scale of the game really, it's no longer a "indie" though, that's been clear since the start of XBLA titles.

 

Sure state of decay was made by a small team, and why exactly did they decide to go with MS and the Xbox first when they could self publish it on other platforms?  You guys didn't stop to think that maybe by going with MS as the publisher they benefitted from support both financial and technical?  Plus all the marketing that comes with the deal, plus now they can also make the second game, the MMO as part of the deal.

 

Long story short it's about time to stop thinking that arcade= indie, it doesn't and never has and never will.  But that's not the point at all, the point is that the XB1 should allow you to push your game to the store directly but you get zero support from MS and you can't use the live service.

[TheLegendOfMart]

Long story short it's about time to stop thinking that arcade= indie, it doesn't and never has and never will.  But that's not the point at all, the point is that the XB1 should allow you to push your game to the store directly but you get zero support from MS and you can't use the live service.

It shouldn't be an either/or situation.

[George P Global Moderator]

It shouldn't be an either/or situation.

 

I don't see why not?   First off MS's brand, Xbox Live, is being attached to the game, that alone means they want to make sure the quality is at least there from the start.  Second it's using MS's backend services as part of the deal, third it's getting marketing to.    That's also not accounting for the direct support a Arcade title can get, if you have a problem with the game and need help you can ask MS for it directly, and they will send out help, as part of the deal.   You honestly want to still think of them as being indie?  After all that they're way past the point of being a indie title.

[HawkMan]

people stop feeding the trolls...

You guys are still fixed on calling arcade games indie when they're not thought of as indie titles.  Not at he start and not now.   If you want to put the Xbox brand on your title and use the Live services then you've stopped thinking of your game as being a indie game.  It doesn't matter if the team making it is small or if it's just one guy, you've decided to go for something that's close to a big title in name, marketing, feature support and even direct support from MS when you need help.  The only difference is the budget and the scale of the game really, it's no longer a "indie" though, that's been clear since the start of XBLA titles.

 

Sure state of decay was made by a small team, and why exactly did they decide to go with MS and the Xbox first when they could self publish it on other platforms?  You guys didn't stop to think that maybe by going with MS as the publisher they benefitted from support both financial and technical?  Plus all the marketing that comes with the deal, plus now they can also make the second game, the MMO as part of the deal.

 

Long story short it's about time to stop thinking that arcade= indie, it doesn't and never has and never will.  But that's not the point at all, the point is that the XB1 should allow you to push your game to the store directly but you get zero support from MS and you can't use the live service.

 

The indie term is the most abused term in all of gaming the last few years. once your game has a budget, and it's coded on anything but purely free time while you have another job, it's not really indie any more. a few years ago indie was used entirely differently, today every "smaller" studio is callign themselves indie for the PR. studios that a few years ago would not refer to themselves as indie, self published or not. 

I don't see why not?   First off MS's brand, Xbox Live, is being attached to the game, that alone means they want to make sure the quality is at least there from the start.  Second it's using MS's backend services as part of the deal, third it's getting marketing to.    That's also not accounting for the direct support a Arcade title can get, if you have a problem with the game and need help you can ask MS for it directly, and they will send out help, as part of the deal.   You honestly want to still think of them as being indie?  After all that they're way past the point of being a indie title.

 

Look at the whole XBLG thing on the 360. it was a cesspit of crap with a few "gems" of mediocrity in it. and those that made the not absolute crap games kept claiming they where being held down by not getting preferential treatment... WTF.... either you're indie and you're with the other indie developers who are not pros' or you publish properly on XBLA or otherwise and get some real PR, it's not MS job to show off your work. 

[chrisj1968]

MS PR = "crickets"... :huh:

[Thief000]

"people stop feeding the trolls..."

 

That's the problem isn't it, they're still around posting ignorant garbage every day? And it's the same ones over and over.

Best thing is to simply ignore these threads and move along or just report them like the last one so it gets locked.

[TheLegendOfMart]

Just like its the same people who are still around who jump to the defense of any thread who dares criticise Microsoft, it's getting boring.

[HawkMan]

Just like its the same people who are still around who jump to the defense of any thread who dares criticise Microsoft, it's getting boring.

 

 

Yes, how dare we correct your, Boxy and Nashy BS FUD posts with corrections and facts.

 

 

Are you seriously calling the people that defend MS from FUD and false accusations trolls. as opposed to the 2(3) people who keep posting only the negative MS news, most of which are in the lies, false and FUD category...  based on that alone your rights to post int he MS section of these forums should be taken away tbh. 

 

:rolleyes: 

[TheLegendOfMart]

Yay I almost have a full house, ahhell, vcfan, Hawkman, all I need now is Yoghurt guy and a personal attack just because someone doesn't like me criticising Microsoft and I am a winner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MorganX]

Yay I almost have a full house, ahhell, vcfan, Hawkman, all I need now is Yoghurt guy and a personal attack just because someone doesn't like me criticising Microsoft and I am a winner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I haven't even read all the posts and don't doubt there's some sort of an attack. But from the sidelines, this was a bad point from which to launch a preferred/superior platform argument.

 

Not the indie issue, but the technical issues you chose to launch from.

[coresx]

Lanning is overboard with the firing but his points are fair and clear.

 

Even if devs self publish, Microsoft can still decide if the game is allowed and they also STILL get a cut for being on the Xbox platform like any game.

 

Self publishing does not automatically mean 99% app store crap. It won't be the Indie channel like 360.

 

Sony will still be guardian on PSN and disallow most crap. Valve does the same thing with Steam.

 

Microsoft want devs to have a publisher so the likely outcome is they get a SECOND cut being the publishers themselves. They just want more money and control of pricing.

 

That is a problem.

 

Good on Lanning or whoever else speaks up and shame on Microsoft defenders. You can disagree with them, they won't disown you.

 

How any of you can disagree with more games, self publishing, varied pricing and still controlled by Microsoft so it won't be shovelware. Totally deluded. If that hits a nerve then good, you need to wake up and stop defending Microsoft at every point. It just becomes silly and lessens the neowin community and yes, site is at heart Microsoft/Windows but think for yourselves more. You can love and hate rather than twisting reasons to make Microsoft look good.