Lanning: Xbox One team should be fired over indie stance

[George P Global Moderator]

I've never heard someone speak so ambiguously. Can't they just announce stuff with clear details rather than beat about the bush? 

 

Hopefully the final result is something a long the lines of self-publish with quality control.

 

They're going with the trickle out information plan, instead of saying everything in one go and then have people forget about it 4 months later when the system is on sale, they're staying in the news by showing and giving more info at different events.  Like they just did at Comic Con, and they're going to be at Gamescon or w/e next, should give you more info there as well.

[JonnyLH]

They're going with the trickle out information plan, instead of saying everything in one go and then have people forget about it 4 months later when the system is on sale, they're staying in the news by showing and giving more info at different events.  Like they just did at Comic Con, and they're going to be at Gamescon or w/e next, should give you more info there as well.

Personally I feel like this is the worst approach possible. MS are being so silly with their PR.

 

They could of released all this information at build if they had it final, or a rough idea, and got in before the PS4's self publishing announcement. Lame marketing/PR if you ask me.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

You won't be spending your money on the Xbox store so what exactly is your problem?

 

Understanding how people apparently can't handle looking at a review or being cautious before throwing their money around.

[+Anarkii Subscriber²]

Im laughing because I know someone (hes a bit of a tool thou) who swears by Xbox and the indie game scene, shame he cant publish his game to the Xbox platform he loves so dearly without having a proper publisher tho :)
 

[Showan]

They're going with the trickle out information plan, instead of saying everything in one go and then have people forget about it 4 months later when the system is on sale, they're staying in the news by showing and giving more info at different events.  Like they just did at Comic Con, and they're going to be at Gamescon or w/e next, should give you more info there as well.

The problem is the "Instant" world we live in... When I was a kid, it was nothing like this, no news conference, no press events, no E3...

Now we want answers immediately. Trickling out information is the better way. If you show everything at once, I would personally just have that "That's it?!" look on my face...

What they showed from an OS level has been different at each event. Which is good, IMHO...

if they have more new features to announce at Gamescon and TGS, and people are still hating on the XB1... Then they honestly just don't care about it and want it to burn for the sake of being a hater.

Can you picture more new games and more system level features being shown at the last 2 events ....

I'm already excited about the XB1... This would just be an overload of icing on the cake for me...

[Torolol]

Personally I feel like this is the worst approach possible. MS are being so silly with their PR.

 

They could of released all this information at build if they had it final, or a rough idea, and got in before the PS4's self publishing announcement. Lame marketing/PR if you ask me.

I agree, MSFT is being lame in its PR & Communicating dept.

 

I predict during launch xbox one only have a handful of game titles,

simply because MSFT failed to communicates the xbox one business model earlier, to game developers who hasn't join the 'Approved Publishers', yet.

[Eric Veteran]

[Thread cleaned]

 

Please keep posts related to the thread topic.

[coresx]

Speaking exclusively to OXM, Microsoft Studios head Phil Spencer attempted to discuss the firm's reservations about self-publishing shortly before the Xbox One's reveal. The short version is that Microsoft wants to preserve a certain level of quality across its service, and would rather seek out talented developers itself than lure them in by lowering the barriers to entry.

 

Full article here.

 

http://www.oxm.co.uk/58601/lionhead-microsoft-is-passionate-about-indies-on-xbox-one-phil-harrisons-platform-is-very-soon/

 

 

This is basically the same nonsense parroted by those who think MS can do no wrong. I think you might find MS it's talented developers who are talking out about your publishing policies.

 

You don't run an open network, you can block/remove absolutely any game you want from being on your store regardless of your publishing policies.

 

Yeah, people are not understanding the difference here.

 

Self publishing does not mean a junk yard like mobile app stores.

 

Microsoft/Sony/Valve etc. still get a final say on which games appear on the store/platform.

 

Self publishing means devs don't have to share their profit with a 3rd party.

 

The only fees they pay is to the platform holder for the license/revenue fee to sell on the platform/store and any game abides by that rule.

 

Microsoft want TWO slices of the pie instead of one. Greed and control.

 

You can't twist it any other way. Microsoft can still pick and choose which titles end up on the service, Sony will be doing the same but allowing self publishing so devs can have a chance of getting on the service and ultimately make more money for themselves and Sony as a result.

 

Microsoft can choose to continue cherry picking and being the publisher leech for no reason other than funniling money to themselves but they will miss out on games because of it and for people to defend a practice which only benefits Microsoft is a sad state of affairs.

 

Suppose you cheer on Microsoft for spending millions on timed exclusive DLC so other players can't get it for a few months. Truly baffling that people think they are getting value from Microsoft. What a waste.

[George P Global Moderator]

Yeah, people are not understanding the difference here.

 

Self publishing does not mean a junk yard like mobile app stores.

 

Microsoft/Sony/Valve etc. still get a final say on which games appear on the store/platform.

 

Self publishing means devs don't have to share their profit with a 3rd party.

 

The only fees they pay is to the platform holder for the license/revenue fee to sell on the platform/store and any game abides by that rule.

 

Microsoft want TWO slices of the pie instead of one. Greed and control.

 

You can't twist it any other way. Microsoft can still pick and choose which titles end up on the service, Sony will be doing the same but allowing self publishing so devs can have a chance of getting on the service and ultimately make more money for themselves and Sony as a result.

 

Microsoft can choose to continue cherry picking and being the publisher leech for no reason other than funniling money to themselves but they will miss out on games because of it and for people to defend a practice which only benefits Microsoft is a sad state of affairs.

 

Suppose you cheer on Microsoft for spending millions on timed exclusive DLC so other players can't get it for a few months. Truly baffling that people think they are getting value from Microsoft. What a waste.

 

 

It seems you're one of those who doesn't understand the difference as well.   MS asks that you have a publisher for "arcade" level titles, those are different than self published "indie" titles in a number of ways.  All of those have been said and pointed out a number of times in this thread already.  The fact some want to side step those and bunch indie and arcade games all into one mesh is why this thread is 9 pages long already when it didn't have to be.

 

All it takes is for anyone to look at the Windows and WP store to see the clear case and a example of what I believe we're in for with the XB1 store in the future.  Do you want to self publish your "indie" game?  Fine, do so, put it up on the store and follow the revshare path that other indie and apps follow.  Want to have the added stuff that comes with being a Xbox Live  supported game?  Then get a publisher, it doesn't get any simpler than that.  If you want to use Live, have the support and marketing that goes with it, not to mention the branding that helps set your title apart then you get a publisher and "give a second slice of the pie" for those things.  It seems like some want to think these Live Arcade level games just pay and get nothing in return when that's far from the truth.

 

Developers are free to setup their own leaderboards, achievement systems, servers to manage and run them and any other backend stuff their game might need,  pay all of that out of their pocket if they feel it's better than paying for a publisher and getting that all from MS as part of the deal plus more.   That's up to them, and they know what they're getting into before hand, if you're going to moan about it after the fact then that's just too bad really.

[coresx]

It seems you're one of those who doesn't understand the difference as well.   MS asks that you have a publisher for "arcade" level titles, those are different than self published "indie" titles in a number of ways.  All of those have been said and pointed out a number of times in this thread already.  The fact some want to side step those and bunch indie and arcade games all into one mesh is why this thread is 9 pages long already when it didn't have to be.

 

All it takes is for anyone to look at the Windows and WP store to see the clear case and a example of what I believe we're in for with the XB1 store in the future.  Do you want to self publish your "indie" game?  Fine, do so, put it up on the store and follow the revshare path that other indie and apps follow.  Want to have the added stuff that comes with being a Xbox Live  supported game?  Then get a publisher, it doesn't get any simpler than that.  If you want to use Live, have the support and marketing that goes with it, not to mention the branding that helps set your title apart then you get a publisher and "give a second slice of the pie" for those things.  It seems like some want to think these Live Arcade level games just pay and get nothing in return when that's far from the truth.

 

Developers are free to setup their own leaderboards, achievement systems, servers to manage and run them and any other backend stuff their game might need,  pay all of that out of their pocket if they feel it's better than paying for a publisher and getting that all from MS as part of the deal plus more.   That's up to them, and they know what they're getting into before hand, if you're going to moan about it after the fact then that's just too bad really.

 

Having a third party publisher is a rule, not the reason for getting those XBLA perks and features, that is utter nonsense you made up. If what you were saying was true, any third party that isn't Microsoft Studios wouldn't get those features as they aren't giving their second slice of revenue from sales to Microsoft for the priveledge, Microsoft still gets one slice. The standard revenue/license slice for any game is what gets the Xbox feature set.

 

Forget Indie, forget publisher backed games.

 

Look soley at a developer making a game and wanting to release a game on platforms/stores.

 

I'll give you an example.

 

A great game by a talented dev studio.

 

Self published on Windows/iOS/Mac/PSN - One slice of revenue given away.

 

Microsoft published on XBLA. - Two slices of revenue given away.

 

Once again, Microsoft and others can knock back whatever games they want and best of luck to devs who get a chance and platform holders welcome them aboard to make money for both parties.

 

What Microsoft prefers is control of pricing, promotion, publisher dominance, two revenue streams.

 

For people that want more good games, it is not ideal when devs get knocked back because of that Microsoft philosphy.

 

Is there benefits to 3rd party publishing, absolutely, dev support, promotion etc. but it should be a choice and not a stick to beat devs back with.

 

Arguing there would be a sea of trash in the store is scaremongering and a myth. Gatekeeper will always remain and retain the quality they want.

[ahhell]

So what about this then....hmmm?

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

See Microsoft? It's not hard to get people to like you. Just forget about your wallet once in a while & do what's right by the devs/gamers ;)

 

Now just take Kinect out the box, lower the price and we're cool :yes:

[George P Global Moderator]

Having a third party publisher is a rule, not the reason for getting those XBLA perks and features, that is utter nonsense you made up. If what you were saying was true, any third party that isn't Microsoft Studios wouldn't get those features as they aren't giving their second slice of revenue from sales to Microsoft for the priveledge, Microsoft still gets one slice. The standard revenue/license slice for any game is what gets the Xbox feature set.

 

Forget Indie, forget publisher backed games.

 

Look soley at a developer making a game and wanting to release a game on platforms/stores.

 

I'll give you an example.

 

A great game by a talented dev studio.

 

Self published on Windows/iOS/Mac/PSN - One slice of revenue given away.

 

Microsoft published on XBLA. - Two slices of revenue given away.

 

Once again, Microsoft and others can knock back whatever games they want and best of luck to devs who get a chance and platform holders welcome them aboard to make money for both parties.

 

What Microsoft prefers is control of pricing, promotion, publisher dominance, two revenue streams.

 

For people that want more good games, it is not ideal when devs get knocked back because of that Microsoft philosphy.

 

Is there benefits to 3rd party publishing, absolutely, dev support, promotion etc. but it should be a choice and not a stick to beat devs back with.

 

Arguing there would be a sea of trash in the store is scaremongering and a myth. Gatekeeper will always remain and retain the quality they want.

Made up?  It's stated clearly that if you want your game to have Xbox Live integration, be it on Windows 8 or WP or even the 360 then you need a publisher, it can be MS or it can be a 3rd party partner.  You don't know what deal those 3rd party publisher has with MS in the end, and what costs the publisher pays to MS in the end, via a platform license etc.  So in the end yes, you are paying directly for Xbox Live support/services/features or whatever you want to call it.  

 

On Windows and WP if you don't want a publisher and you self publish to the store then you don't get any Xbox Live support/integration and so on.  It's clear cut, all you have to do is look at the games with and without the Xbox Live branding.  Or just look at MSs own info on the subject of "Xbox" titles.    For a developer it's clear cut, do you want to have Xbox live part of your game?  Yes?  Then you need a publisher.  If you don't, and you want to be a true "indie" title, like many on the Windows 8 and WP store that DON"T have any of the Xbox Live bits then you don't need a publisher.   I don't get how you think it's made up info when it's well known and stated as to what you get as part of the publishing deal by MS themselves.  

[Woelfel]

So, we can close this thread now, right? MS is now doing "XBLIG" but giving indie devs, the features of XBLA games. Good to hear.

 

</thread>

[George P Global Moderator]

So, we can close this thread now, right? MS is now doing "XBLIG" but giving indie devs, the features of XBLA games. Good to hear.

 

</thread>

 

Honestly, months ago when they officially said that they'd only have one location for all games and not two different places like XBLA and XBLIG, I thought it was clear that you could self-publish.  Now we know you also get all the Xbox Live services to, which is just a bonus.  

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

So what about this then....hmmm?

 

Good, but I hope all the people arguing against it, aka Showan, will now have to seriously consider picking up an Xbox One at launch because the shower of **** games that will clearly take up all the virtual space on XBL store will ruin things. Damn PS fanboys ruining another plus of the Xbox One.

 

Xbox One self-publishing won't be ready at launch, but will hit within the first year we're told sbn.to/18AdPca via @Polygon

 

 

Not ready at launch though. Is anything going to be ready at launch? Obviously that's sarcasm before anyone bitch fits, but it's coming after all the media stuff being heavily US favoured, and initially when DRM was in play, rental plans not being ready for launch.

[Showan]

Good, but I hope all the people arguing against it, aka Showan, will now have to seriously consider picking up an Xbox One at launch because the shower of **** games that will clearly take up all the virtual space on XBL store will ruin things. Damn PS fanboys ruining another plus of the Xbox One.

 

 

Not ready at launch though. Is anything going to be ready at launch? Obviously that's sarcasm before anyone bitch fits, but it's coming after all the media stuff being heavily US favoured, and initially when DRM was in play, rental plans not being ready for launch.

I love how you point me out (that's right, call me out)... But I won't back down from it ...

I don't want Live looking like a junkyard...

It's one of the things I love about PSN...

I navigate through PILES of trash games, and it drives me nuts (maybe its an OCD)....

[HawkMan]

Having a third party publisher is a rule, not the reason for getting those XBLA perks and features, that is utter nonsense you made up. If what you were saying was true, any third party that isn't Microsoft Studios wouldn't get those features as they aren't giving their second slice of revenue from sales to Microsoft for the priveledge, Microsoft still gets one slice. The standard revenue/license slice for any game is what gets the Xbox feature set.

 

Forget Indie, forget publisher backed games.

 

Look soley at a developer making a game and wanting to release a game on platforms/stores.

 

I'll give you an example.

 

A great game by a talented dev studio.

 

Self published on Windows/iOS/Mac/PSN - One slice of revenue given away.

 

Microsoft published on XBLA. - Two slices of revenue given away.

 

Once again, Microsoft and others can knock back whatever games they want and best of luck to devs who get a chance and platform holders welcome them aboard to make money for both parties.

 

What Microsoft prefers is control of pricing, promotion, publisher dominance, two revenue streams.

 

For people that want more good games, it is not ideal when devs get knocked back because of that Microsoft philosphy.

 

Is there benefits to 3rd party publishing, absolutely, dev support, promotion etc. but it should be a choice and not a stick to beat devs back with.

 

Arguing there would be a sea of trash in the store is scaremongering and a myth. Gatekeeper will always remain and retain the quality they want.

One slice if they release it as an app and not an XBL branded title. Two slices and much more marketing and a higher price and much more sales if they chose XBL branding resulting in higher profits.

[JonnyLH]

So Indie developers were just being childish cry-babies then?

[HawkMan]

So Indie developers were just being childish cry-babies then?

Only for the last 5 years

[ahhell]

Only for the last 5 years

 

Jonathan Blow certainly is.

I lost all respect for that guy.

[Showan]

Indie this and Indie that...

 

Indies have to face the fact that, only a few among them are allowed at the BIG BOY/GIRL TABLE...

 

I'm sorry but it's true.

 

Nobody can honestly tell me that they are buying a PS4 or XB1, just to go nuts downloading and playing small Indie games...

 

Yes we all will buy and play some of them... But for them to be my main focus... well NOPE...

 

$400 - $500 spent just to have a TON of Indie games... sure...

[trooper11]

Good, but I hope all the people arguing against it, aka Showan, will now have to seriously consider picking up an Xbox One at launch because the shower of **** games that will clearly take up all the virtual space on XBL store will ruin things. Damn PS fanboys ruining another plus of the Xbox One.

 

 

Not ready at launch though. Is anything going to be ready at launch? Obviously that's sarcasm before anyone bitch fits, but it's coming after all the media stuff being heavily US favoured, and initially when DRM was in play, rental plans not being ready for launch.

 

 

 

See here is what I don't get.  This is not a reaction to Sony or some brand new plan and you guys should know that.  MS hinted at this very thing as far back as before E3 where they commented on upcoming plans for indie devs.  Then BUILD gave even more indication of their goals. As far as not ready at launch, if that turns out to be true, I would say its likely related to their work on win 8.1 and integrating that into the X1.

 

This goes back to the idea that MS is just copying Sony or that its a bad thing that they are announcing things people were angry about not having. I remember the beginning of this gen and how so many people called Sony arrogant and got pretty upset about their policy choices. Sony didn't care, they pushed forward as they thought best. They didn't try to react to public pressure until well into this gen and not in a big way until now.

 

Then we look at MS. People are claiming the same thing with them now. Is MS sitting still? Are they ignoring it and not reacting? No, in fact they have made some great choices lately, choices that matter to gamers. Outside of the hand wringing up to this point, it seems like MS isn't so bad after all. As we get closer to launch, we hear more and more details and guess what, MS is looking better and better. This has to be one of the biggest turnarounds I've seen for a console launch. MS did what Sony was unwilling to do this gen: Do what is necessary to please potential customers BEFORE a console launch.

 

Some people want to bash MS for doing good things and I just don't get it. At least you seem to get it.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

Indie this and Indie that...

 

Indies have to face the fact that, only a few among them are allowed at the BIG BOY/GIRL TABLE...

 

I'm sorry but it's true.

 

Nobody can honestly tell me that they are buying a PS4 or XB1, just to go nuts downloading and playing small Indie games...

 

Yes we all will buy and play some of them... But for them to be my main focus... well NOPE...

 

$400 - $500 spent just to have a TON of Indie games... sure...

 

Why not? For the last 3 years my only remaining interest in the 360 has largely been due to XBLA & the indie titles released on it. I do the same with my gaming PC as well as use it for F2P games.

 

Maybe it's time to upgrade from the "big boy's table" to the adult table & learn to appreciate games for more reasons other than their kill streaks & high end graphics :yes:

[HawkMan]

Being at the if boys table doesn't make 10 minute nudie games any more entertaining.

The big pull of consoles is still AAA games even if I stIll playing thoroughly enjoy arcade titles like bastion, the ninja game and that alpha sector or what it was called. Those are not the games I buy a console for. Those I could just as well play on my computer.